I always thought it was strange that turbolasers, ion cannons, or ordnance dice have to stand in for laser cannons like on Raiders, Arquitens, or Nebulon-Bs for example. Why do you think FFG ignored an extremely common weapon system? Was it a missed gameplay opportunity?

Bonus points if you propose a laser cannon dice hit/crit/accuracy/blank layout, color, and range.

Perhaps 3 hits, 2 crits, 2 accuracies, and 1 blank up to medium range? As for the color I suggest green in honor of the TIE fighter.

13 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I always thought it was strange that turbolasers, ion cannons, or ordnance dice have to stand in for laser cannons like on Raiders, Arquitens, or Nebulon-Bs for example. Why do you think FFG ignored an extremely common weapon system? Was it a missed gameplay opportunity?

Bonus points if you propose a laser cannon dice hit/crit/accuracy/blank layout, color, and range.

Perhaps 3 hits, 2 crits, 2 accuracies, and 1 blank up to medium range? As for the color I suggest green in honor of the TIE fighter.

For the same reason all dice aren’t inherently locked to the die colours.

You either compromise for ease of use, or you break into so many die types it becomes unwieldy.

At some point, you make the choice : and FFG stopped at 3 overarching brackets.

Im glad we don’t have to differentiate between Protons and Concussions with different die types ?

9 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

For the same reason all dice aren’t inherently locked to the die colours.

You either compromise for ease of use, or you break into so many die types it becomes unwieldy.

At some point, you make the choice : and FFG stopped at 3 overarching brackets.

Im glad we don’t have to differentiate between Protons and Concussions with different die types ?

Proton torpedoes and concussion missiles are easy to change to the other because the launch systems are extremely similar.

A laser cannon is only similar to an ion cannon in that it is an energy weapon.

3 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Proton torpedoes and concussion missiles are easy to change to the other because the launch systems are extremely similar.

A laser cannon is only similar to an ion cannon in that it is an energy weapon.

Yet is the end, it’s short ranged and due to weapon saturation has the potential to be high damage at the same time within that close range bracket...

... black die to me!

Dice are just that abstract.

Why don’t turbolasers increase in damage as you get closer as we’ve been told they decrease in power at range?

They DO- that’s what adding blues or blacks simulate.

Its all about the damage potential, little else.

It's a design choice and I'm not sure what modeling weapon types would bring to the game.

I would argue a weapon system is slightly more convoluted and it might have been dropped in favor of simplicity. It's also possible that there was just no gameplay benefit in differentiating lasers, turbolasers and ion canons.

At the moment, the dice are an abstraction of attack power at range, not of weapon type. All 3 dice color are neatly tied to a range and (loosely) to an upgrade slot. It's elegant.

What would a green die bring over a blue? The dice are already fairly balanced in range, reliability and power. What other variable would a green die bring?

See that box on the ship card for your AA rating?

Those are your laser cannons.

57 minutes ago, CptAwesomer said:

It's a design choice and I'm not sure what modeling weapon types would bring to the game.

I would argue a weapon system is slightly more convoluted and it might have been dropped in favor of simplicity. It's also possible that there was just no gameplay benefit in differentiating lasers, turbolasers and ion canons.

At the moment, the dice are an abstraction of attack power at range, not of weapon type. All 3 dice color are neatly tied to a range and (loosely) to an upgrade slot. It's elegant.

What would a green die bring over a blue? The dice are already fairly balanced in range, reliability and power. What other variable would a green die bring?

Different combos like hit/crit faces?

Idk man I'm just trying to start a conversation...

2 hours ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I always thought it was strange that turbolasers, ion cannons, or ordnance dice have to stand in for laser cannons like on Raiders, Arquitens, or Nebulon-Bs for example. Why do you think FFG ignored an extremely common weapon system? Was it a missed gameplay opportunity?

Bonus points if you propose a laser cannon dice hit/crit/accuracy/blank layout, color, and range.

Perhaps 3 hits, 2 crits, 2 accuracies, and 1 blank up to medium range? As for the color I suggest green in honor of the TIE fighter.

42 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Different combos like hit/crit faces?

Idk man I'm just trying to start a conversation...

I am not sure what conversation you are trying to start. Are you saying that the color of the die represents a specific weapon? If so not to be snarky or anything but where do you get this from? If not I have no idea what you are trying to say.

1 minute ago, CDAT said:

I am not sure what conversation you are trying to start. Are you saying that the color of the die represents a specific weapon?

Yes the colors represent a weapon system, turbolasers (red), ion cannons (blue), and proton torpedoes/concussion missiles (black).

What I am saying is that laser cannons are not represented, and am saying that is a missed opportunity for game design.

9 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Different combos like hit/crit faces?

Idk man I'm just trying to start a conversation...

Well, with the current system, I don't think that there's room for an extra die. There's 3 variables and unless you add a variable, you'll just muddy the waters. Pushed to the extreme, we could have 7 die colors, but then it would be pretty difficult to decide, for a given situation, if the purple one is better than the blue or the burnt ochre one. In the end, the extra hassle is probably not worth it and it's probably why FFG settled on 3.

The one possibility I see to add a die in the current system would be some kind of experimental weapon, that uses a custom die, a la War of the Ring. It has its own upgrade slot, its own symbols even. But then it's an entirely new game mechanic that happens to use a die, say the Death Star laser. I don't think it's necessary and you could definitely implement it using the current 3 colors, but it's a possibility.

I think for a weapon-based system to work, Armada would also need a more complex defense system, for instance making Ordnance un-redirectable or making green that can't be evaded. It would be a more refined representation of the weapons on the ships... but I'm not sure what you would gain from a gameplay perspective. It would imply probably firing each weapon individually, otherwise it's a nightmare to quickly compute damage and effects. Which would increase the length of the game even more... Not sure how I would feel about that.

Let's be honest, the current design is very streamlined and I'm not sure we lose anything by having all weapon systems reduced to 3 colors.

4 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Yes the colors represent a weapon system, turbolasers (red), ion cannons (blue), and proton torpedoes/concussion missiles (black).

What I am saying is that laser cannons are not represented, and am saying that is a missed opportunity for game design.

I think what other people are saying is that this statement gets the causality backwards.

Dice color is not tied to weapon system. Sure, all ion cannon upgrades work with blue dice, but that's not the same as saying that all blue dice are ion cannons (because they definitely aren't)

Dice color is a range abstraction. Weapon types come from upgrades, not dice. The black dice on an isd1 represent heavy turbolaser turrets doing extra damage close in, not ordnance systems, while the blue dice on an assault frigate or a CR90a or an mc30 represent laser cannons, not ion weapons.

So saying that we have a missing weapon type assumes something about the game that the rest of us don't believe to be true.

Which isn't to say that we can't have a conversation about it - I love theorycrafting as much as the next person. But if you want to say that we meed new dice to represent a weapon type that you don't think is well - represented under the current model, first you need to offer a convincing argument that dice colors should represent different weapon types instead of the current abstraction.

Well reasoned @CptAwesomer

I guess I bring up the 4th dice idea is because dice combos could get repetitive in the future, plus I like the idea of laser cannon based dice being multipurpose.

The quad laser cannons on the Mk2 can target starfighters while remaining a respectable threat to ships for example, which would be an interesting game mechanic I think.

1 hour ago, Onidsen said:

I think what other people are saying is that this statement gets the causality backwards.

Dice color is not tied to weapon system. Sure, all ion cannon upgrades work with blue dice, but that's not the same as saying that all blue dice are ion cannons (because they definitely aren't)

Dice color is a range abstraction. Weapon types come from upgrades, not dice. The black dice on an isd1 represent heavy turbolaser turrets doing extra damage close in, not ordnance systems, while the blue dice on an assault frigate or a CR90a or an mc30 represent laser cannons, not ion weapons.

So saying that we have a missing weapon type assumes something about the game that the rest of us don't believe to be true.

Which isn't to say that we can't have a conversation about it - I love theorycrafting as much as the next person. But if you want to say that we meed new dice to represent a weapon type that you don't think is well - represented under the current model, first you need to offer a convincing argument that dice colors should represent different weapon types instead of the current abstraction.

^^^ this. Dice have nothing to do with particular weapon systems, just range. It just so happens FFG has tied certain upgrades to certain colors. But it can represent anything.

The last thing I want is anything that will complicate the game further. As it is, it's elegant and eminently playable. It definitely does not need any other type of dice.

Honestly, I would be all for special dice representing a specific weapon system. Come out with an expansion that contains 4 green dice as described above, and ion upgrade or offensive retrofit "laser cannno battery" replace all blue die in a ships armament with green. Same range, different possible die result.

We are gamers! More dice is always a good thing!

I think we should add a special dice set for each weapon.

First of all we add a 4th and 5th color (yellow and green) as super long and ultra long. Just to make sure you can always roll some dice. I mean come on. Red range is just not realistic and way to short. Just see how far you can shot in Legion...

Additional we set the dice type for each weapon.
Ordnance slot has the black d8. Unless you equip an APT, in this case you have to replace up to 3 black dice with a black d20. If you have the ACM upgrade you can replace one black die with a blue d6 and can replace up to 2 black dice with black d10.
But carefull, if you add a TRC on a ship that has as well black dice, you need to change one red d8 with a red d10. If not you may change one red die with a yellow d4.
But if you combine a TRC with Leading Shots, you have to replace 1 red die with a blue d6, one blue die with a black d10 and may change up to 2 red die to one yellow d4 and one green d20. Unless you have as well Expanded Launchers on the ship. In this case you need to remove all red, yellow and green dice and add the same number of blue dice of the same type.
... (just add another 100 ideas and combinations)

As second realistm improvement the dice will get a new icon. A laser beam. This icon count as blank unless you have an upgrade card with this laster beam icon (the cards will be changed and reprint). If the card has one laser beam icon it is the same as a hit, if the card has two laser beam icons it count as crit.

To make sure you can play you have to buy the Dice Reinforcement set. It will contain 3 of each new dice and all new upgrade cards that have the new icons. It will cost $99. To make sure you have enough to play you will have to buy it twice.
Maybe we can even promote and sell it as Armada 2.0.

/sarcasm off
Sorry, i could not resist.

8 hours ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Yes the colors represent a weapon system, turbolasers (red), ion cannons (blue), and proton torpedoes/concussion missiles (black).

What I am saying is that laser cannons are not represented, and am saying that is a missed opportunity for game design.

So you answered part of my question, I will ask the second part again. As nothing I have ever seen say that is the case, my understanding like others has been it is just the range.

8 hours ago, CDAT said:

I am not sure what conversation you are trying to start. Are you saying that the color of the die represents a specific weapon? If so not to be snarky or anything but where do you get this from? If not I have no idea what you are trying to say.

24 minutes ago, CDAT said:

So you answered part of my question, I will ask the second part again. As nothing I have ever seen say that is the case, my understanding like others has been it is just the range.

I’m not quite sure where this comes from either, but I have seen this assumption quite frequently here on the forums. It seems to be pretty common to think that each color represents a particular class of armament. Again, I’m not sure why though.

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

I think we should add a special dice set for each weapon.

First of all we add a 4th and 5th color (yellow and green) as super long and ultra long. Just to make sure you can always roll some dice. I mean come on. Red range is just not realistic and way to short. Just see how far you can shot in Legion...

Additional we set the dice type for each weapon.
Ordnance slot has the black d8. Unless you equip an APT, in this case you have to replace up to 3 black dice with a black d20. If you have the ACM upgrade you can replace one black die with a blue d6 and can replace up to 2 black dice with black d10.
But carefull, if you add a TRC on a ship that has as well black dice, you need to change one red d8 with a red d10. If not you may change one red die with a yellow d4.
But if you combine a TRC with Leading Shots, you have to replace 1 red die with a blue d6, one blue die with a black d10 and may change up to 2 red die to one yellow d4 and one green d20. Unless you have as well Expanded Launchers on the ship. In this case you need to remove all red, yellow and green dice and add the same number of blue dice of the same type.
... (just add another 100 ideas and combinations)

As second realistm improvement the dice will get a new icon. A laser beam. This icon count as blank unless you have an upgrade card with this laster beam icon (the cards will be changed and reprint). If the card has one laser beam icon it is the same as a hit, if the card has two laser beam icons it count as crit.

To make sure you can play you have to buy the Dice Reinforcement set. It will contain 3 of each new dice and all new upgrade cards that have the new icons. It will cost $99. To make sure you have enough to play you will have to buy it twice.
Maybe we can even promote and sell it as Armada 2.0.

/sarcasm off
Sorry, i could not resist.

New upgrade for your system:

"When attacking if your battery armament has at least 10 dice you can exchange them for a golden d2*"

*Which faces are target destroyed/target not destroyed

While I like @Piratical Moustache keeping this place lively with daily brain teasers, I have to say I agree with many people and say this thread can't go nowhere.

- We could talk about the aestethic of the game design. And it would probably end up pointing toward keeping the 3 dices for 3 ranges / 3 types of risks. Going above that gets messy pretty quickly.

- We could talk about rule accretion (adding new rules upon existing system). Which the game already kind of suffer from. I mean, we got raid, which is one of the rule creation from FFG that I wouldn't rate highly. Boarding teams already provide that feeling, and mechanisms such as Slicer Tools does the same job in a better way.

But the main issue I have with this thread is that none of us can answer this "Why" question. We could discuss a "Should" question, but only the designers of the game can answer on "Why". Anything we would do would be 100% unsubstantiate speculations. Which is not that interesting.

1 hour ago, CDAT said:

So you answered part of my question, I will ask the second part again. As nothing I have ever seen say that is the case, my understanding like others has been it is just the range.

1 hour ago, Forgottenlore said:

I’m not quite sure where this comes from either, but I have seen this assumption quite frequently here on the forums. It seems to be pretty common to think that each color represents a particular class of armament. Again, I’m not sure why though.

Come on guys it is not that hard. I mean I agree about colours not being linked with any weapon slot, type or whatever and there are several things that proves it. But the source of that misconception is not that obscure.

I figured that the offensive upgrade slot was the laser cannon slot cuz that's where the quadlaser turrets went

While there is nothing specifically stating a certain colour represents x/y/z, isn’t it pretty much de jure that the GSD1 & the MC30 are missile platforms, hence the preponderance of Black dice. And as such black dice are considered to represent missiles...?

51 minutes ago, ISD Avenger said:

While there is nothing specifically stating a certain colour represents x/y/z, isn’t it pretty much de jure that the GSD1 & the MC30 are missile platforms, hence the preponderance of Black dice. And as such black dice are considered to represent missiles...?

Yet, the ISD-I isn't exactly known as a Missile Boat, and it has Black Dice too... But no Ordnance Slot...

Also, the MC30 (as you brought it up) Torpedo variant has nothing but Black and Blue dice, and yet, has a Turbolaser slot, but that is considered to be a Red dice slot...

... There is certainly leanings, but if you try to label it as "proof", you find too many exceptions to the rule... So it can't be "Proven" to be so at this point in time.

49 minutes ago, ISD Avenger said:

While there is nothing specifically stating a certain colour represents x/y/z, isn’t it pretty much de jure that the GSD1 & the MC30 are missile platforms, hence the preponderance of Black dice. And as such black dice are considered to represent missiles...?

The strongest argument against is that squadrons use the same dice. And as far as I know, a TIE fighter doesn't shoot ion blasts and a Z-95 doesn't have turbolaser turrets.

The squadrons make little sense if the dice are supposed to represent weapons. A-Wings and TIE Bombers both have black dice, what are they supposed to represent? Bombs? Torpedoes? But X-Wings have red dice... What about the blue on the Tie Fighter? What weapon does a blue and a black represent on B-Wings?!

You could argue that squadrons use a different system, but then you're adding exceptions to the design that aren't necessary if you think of the dice in terms of attack power.

They did match the upgrade slots with a range and the attack power at a given range is represented by a specific die color, so yes there's an indirect link. You might say that 1 + 1 = 2 and I really wouldn't blame you, but I think the upgrade slot design and the dice system are 2 different things. You could keep the same dice color and design a completely different upgrade system (say, all crit upgrades on one slot, all rerolls on another). Both systems are interlocking, but they're not the same.

Splitting hair? You bet!