1 minute ago, SOTL said:

Yeah the Lok is a lot better than that Y-Wing. You're proving yourself wrong.

Did you miss the extra red dice primary????

Scurrg over Y-Wing: 1 red, 2 shields, half a 1 straight additional movement and talon rolls instead of a k turn.

Y-Wing (in 50 pt turret config) vs Scurrg: Blue 1s and 2s, bonus attack with gunner that hits 3 red at range one (isn't ordinance so the extra die applies) for 6 red total at range 1 (4 total range 2) on a single target, white barrel roll. I'm proving what again SOTL?

Oh, I forgot. Y-Wing is harder to line a bullseye on.

If you willing to deal with red barrel rolls you can drop the cost to 46pts if you use a goon or a grey as the base. Turret Y-Wing is the A-10 of X-Wing.

Though, that might explain why FFG didn't add the gunner slot to the Scurrg. 7-8 red (ion cannon turret rolls 4 at range 1) from one ship in a turn, even split between primary and a bonus attack, against a single target might be a bit much. It doesn't explain the lack of reload though.

Ok.

Don't play Scurrgs if you hate them so much?

I agree that the scurrg is pretty much a dedicated ace bomber, because any other job can be done better by someone else in the scum faction .

• Turret Carrier
  • Y-wing. Yes, the Scurrg has a turret, but no gunner slot.
  • I don't think the Dorsal Turret is really worth it with no gunner slot. For a veteran gunner Y-wing playing dakka-dakka, maybe - but the difference in value between 2 2-dice attacks and 1 3-dice attack depends on the target. Giving up a primary shot to fire the dorsal is a bit of a waste.
  • Ion cannons are more worth it, but even if not buying a veteran turret gunner, then the Y-wing and Scurrg have the same firepower (3 dice ion weapon), and the Crymorah Goon is 32 Points to the Lok Revenant's 46. Even allowing for a shield upgrade to make the two closer in durability, I'd rather have the Y-wing.
• Ordnance Carrier
  • The scurgg doesn't have ordnance slots other than bombs anymore.
• Medium-weight gunship (no secondary weapons)
  • The 44 point Cartel Executioner is probably a better pick than the 46 point Lok Revenant - trading a single hit point for a white reload action and Dead To Rights .
  • The option of the R4 Astromech also allows a good enough green dial to actually use that red barrel roll.
  • Whilst it's another 20 points, the Firespray is now on the same base size - adding a rear arc and white boost!
• Minelayer
  • Unless you're specifically wanting to carry Bomblet generator, you might as well use Y-wings, and if you are, consider shelling out for the Andrasta...

Essentially, I can see wanting Nym in the Havok. I can't see wanting a mass of Scurrgs; because you can't field more than three if you give them any upgrades worth talking about, and if you only get 3, you're better off with Nym/Sol or firesprays.

44 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I agree that the scurrg is pretty much a dedicated ace bomber, because any other job can be done better by someone else in the scum faction .

• Turret Carrier
  • Y-wing. Yes, the Scurrg has a turret, but no gunner slot.
  • I don't think the Dorsal Turret is really worth it with no gunner slot. For a veteran gunner Y-wing playing dakka-dakka, maybe - but the difference in value between 2 2-dice attacks and 1 3-dice attack depends on the target. Giving up a primary shot to fire the dorsal is a bit of a waste.
  • Ion cannons are more worth it, but even if not buying a veteran turret gunner, then the Y-wing and Scurrg have the same firepower (3 dice ion weapon), and the Crymorah Goon is 32 Points to the Lok Revenant's 46. Even allowing for a shield upgrade to make the two closer in durability, I'd rather have the Y-wing.
• Ordnance Carrier
  • The scurgg doesn't have ordnance slots other than bombs anymore.
• Medium-weight gunship (no secondary weapons)
  • The 44 point Cartel Executioner is probably a better pick than the 46 point Lok Revenant - trading a single hit point for a white reload action and Dead To Rights .
  • The option of the R4 Astromech also allows a good enough green dial to actually use that red barrel roll.
  • Whilst it's another 20 points, the Firespray is now on the same base size - adding a rear arc and white boost!
• Minelayer
  • Unless you're specifically wanting to carry Bomblet generator, you might as well use Y-wings, and if you are, consider shelling out for the Andrasta...

Essentially, I can see wanting Nym in the Havok. I can't see wanting a mass of Scurrgs; because you can't field more than three if you give them any upgrades worth talking about, and if you only get 3, you're better off with Nym/Sol or firesprays.

Kimo+R4 would be nasty were it allowed. R4 is small ship only. R3s work as a nice replacement.

The scurrg is nothing like the y wing? The only similarities are the be slot and the turret slot. I have you tried the following ship

(49) Sol Sixxa
(5) Bomblet Generator
(4) Havoc
(3) Trajectory Simulator
(0) "Genius"
(4) Ablative Plating
(4) Dorsal Turret
Points 69

With sols ability and genius you can pretty much place a bomb where ever you want and then though in trajectory simulator for if your jousting agaist a swarm and your screwed. For 69 points it is quite expensive and will be targeted first especially with wanting to be at R1 for his bombs and to counter that just put in other ships they want to shoot first like glass canons. Put in say a Pablo and another ship, maybe a Kimo, and thats a solid list that counters alot of build types.

I expect Scurggg's and Jumpmasters will both see some upgrades added and/or point decreases in the future. Unfortunately, it looks like the developers were a bit heavy-handed with the ol' nerfhammer when they finally had an opportunity to go after Nym, Miranda, and JM5K. We will see.

At the same time, I'm not shedding any tears over here. Let's try to make sure that combombo wing doesn't sneak into 2nd Ed.

Save your tears over Nym, he rocks!

2 hours ago, Dengars Toilet Paper said:

The scurrg is nothing like the y wing? The only similarities are the be slot and the turret slot. I have you tried the following ship

(49) Sol Sixxa
(5) Bomblet Generator
(4) Havoc
(3) Trajectory Simulator
(0) "Genius"
(4) Ablative Plating
(4) Dorsal Turret
Points 69

With sols ability and genius you can pretty much place a bomb where ever you want and then though in trajectory simulator for if your jousting agaist a swarm and your screwed. For 69 points it is quite expensive and will be targeted first especially with wanting to be at R1 for his bombs and to counter that just put in other ships they want to shoot first like glass canons. Put in say a Pablo and another ship, maybe a Kimo, and thats a solid list that counters alot of build types.

Wholeheartedly agreed. But I guess that's the point; which is pretty much what @Hiemfire was getting at; Sol Sixxa or Nym, seasoned with Talents, Turrets, and Havok or Cad Bane to taste, are awesome, and don't really need much argument in their favour.

But if you try to field multiple scurrgs, their cost-effectiveness drops off a cliff in a way it doesn't for generic Imperial Navy heavy bombers. They're rather like the TIE aggressor - not bad, per se, but most single jobs you could ask them to do are better done by another ship, and if you try to make a multirole ship they get expensive enough that you might as well take a well-equipped unique pilot.

Which - frankly - I'm fine with. Scum encouraging miss-matched squadrons (say, for example, Havok and Andrasta as a bomber group rather than a trio of identical punishers or K-wings) makes more sense and looks more pleasing for scum than it does for 'regular' navy forces.

2 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Wholeheartedly agreed. But I guess that's the point; which is pretty much what @Hiemfire was getting at; Sol Sixxa or Nym, seasoned with Talents, Turrets, and Havok or Cad Bane to taste, are awesome, and don't really need much argument in their favour.

But if you try to field multiple scurrgs, their cost-effectiveness drops off a cliff in a way it doesn't for generic Imperial Navy heavy bombers. They're rather like the TIE aggressor - not bad, per se, but most single jobs you could ask them to do are better done by another ship, and if you try to make a multirole ship they get expensive enough that you might as well take a well-equipped unique pilot.

Which - frankly - I'm fine with. Scum encouraging miss-matched squadrons (say, for example, Havok and Andrasta as a bomber group rather than a trio of identical punishers or K-wings) makes more sense and looks more pleasing for scum than it does for 'regular' navy forces.

Ahh I see and understand now. The only thing I can say about that is if you want a generic squad play imperial. If you want loaded upgrades and named pilots go scum. If you want to win go rebel #Rebelbias ?

1 minute ago, Dengars Toilet Paper said:

Ahh I see and understand now. The only thing I can say about that is if you want a generic squad play imperial. If you want loaded upgrades and named pilots go scum. If you want to win go rebel #Rebelbias ?

I think most factions have at least one ship like this.

The TIE/x1 isn't as bad as made out to be pre-release (having played quite a few quick build games where it's one of only two options I can say it's better than it looks, although cluster missiles can go die in a fire on a ship with Advanced Targeting Computer) but it's so action-hungry that I'm pretty sure as far as the Tournament-Cut-Or-Bust crowd are concerned, it's going to be even more "Darth Vader's TIE Fighter " than it was in 1.0.

But to an extent, I agree. Ace + Swarm, swarm + command ship, or 2-3 Fighters covering 2-3 Bombers, or similar things that look like actual professional formations feel more right for Imperials.

The inevitable 'classic car rally squad' of a TIE/x7 from the height of the galactic civil war, a TIE/v1 from several years before that never made it into mass production and a TIE/sf from the better part of three decades later (or similar) always irked my inner nerd.

welcome to the way most game developers tend to balance things.

Its weak? Leave it alone for eternity then either buff it in a useless way or make it boarderline overpowered (Bombers/Defenders)
Its strong? Nerf it so hard its now utter garbage (jm5k/scurrg).

The fact that bombs are placed before anyone moves was enough to reel nym back a notch. Him losing PS10 was another notch. Then they removed his friendly bomb immunity and gutted his slots for yet 2 more notches.

This is an issue in virtually every game ive played, video or tabletop.

While i dont think the Scurrg got hit THAT hard it definitely feels like it got hit a little harder than it should have been. Bulk of what happened was against Nym specifically.

4 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

welcome to the way most game developers tend to balance things.

Its weak? Leave it alone for eternity then either buff it in a useless way or make it boarderline overpowered (Bombers/Defenders)
Its strong? Nerf it so hard its now utter garbage (jm5k/scurrg).

The fact that bombs are placed before anyone moves was enough to reel nym back a notch. Him losing PS10 was another notch. Then they removed his friendly bomb immunity and gutted his slots for yet 2 more notches.

This is an issue in virtually every game ive played, video or tabletop.

While i dont think the Scurrg got hit THAT hard it definitely feels like it got hit a little harder than it should have been. Bulk of what happened was against Nym specifically.

Nym also lost access to his dance partner, Miranda.

Most of the "nerfs" to the Skurgg seem reasonable to me. It never had reload in the first place. The dial is slightly worse, but a ship that size shouldn't have a dog-fighter's dial. The loss of missiles and torps is made up for by Trajectory Simulator being a day-one upgrade, and Extra Munitions was replaced with charges on bomb tokens.

13 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I get that their was a very broken synergy between Nym and Miranda Rebel side. Yet now that the Rebels don't have access to it, what Scum side synergy existed in 1.0 that warranted the massive neutering that the Scurrg base chassis got in 2.0?

I think you are wrong - the scurg is a menace - I have almost exclusively flown scum nym for a year. It has not been nerfed very much. Everyone forgets that if u are shot through a bomb u get to add a dice plus you can stop bombs from going off to create a no fly zone. Right now I like to place rocks in the middle of the board and place a seismic there first turn. Anyways if you think scurgs are weak try one of these lists

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v4!s!144:-1,138,-1,70,69,-1,-1:-1:-1:;146:138,-1,71,69,-1,149:-1:-1:U.114,U.1;146:138,-1,70,69,-1,-1:-1:-1:&sn=bomz away 2&obs

or this

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v4!s!144:132,-1,-1,69,71,-1,149:-1:-1:U.114,U.1;146:-1,-1,69,-1,103,-1:-1:-1:;97:126,-1:-1:-1:&sn=Danger Danger&obs

13 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Most of the "nerfs" to the Skurgg seem reasonable to me. It never had reload in the first place. The dial is slightly worse, but a ship that size shouldn't have a dog-fighter's dial. The loss of missiles and torps is made up for by Trajectory Simulator being a day-one upgrade, and Extra Munitions was replaced with charges on bomb tokens.

Just now, freakyg3 said:

I think you are wrong - the scurg is a menace - I have almost exclusively flown scum nym for a year. It has not been nerfed very much. Everyone forgets that if u are shot through a bomb u get to add a dice plus you can stop bombs from going off to create a no fly zone. Right now I like to place rocks in the middle of the board and place a seismic there first turn. Anyways if you think scurgs are weak try one of these lists

It is really easy to tell when people haven't read the thread but only skimmed the original post. The Scurrg is pigeon holed into being an Ace Bomber platform only requiring Havoc + name pilot to be useable in a way not already done better by other platforms. While Nym and Sol Sixxa are powerful when built right, the chassis without those pilots or the upgrades they use isn't really worth the cost anymore.

Beauty of this is that if you are correct, FFG can adjust point costs in the future

22 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

It is really easy to tell when people haven't read the thread but only skimmed the original post. The Scurrg is pigeon holed into being an Ace Bomber platform only requiring Havoc + name pilot to be useable in a way not already done better by other platforms. While Nym and Sol Sixxa are powerful when built right, the chassis without those pilots or the upgrades they use isn't really worth the cost anymore.

both of my lists contained loks - loks are heavy hitters with a lot of hit points - not much can stand up to them in a toe to toe battle

21 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

It is really easy to tell when people haven't read the thread but only skimmed the original post. The Scurrg is pigeon holed into being an Ace Bomber platform only requiring Havoc + name pilot to be useable in a way not already done better by other platforms. While Nym and Sol Sixxa are powerful when built right, the chassis without those pilots or the upgrades they use isn't really worth the cost anymore.

You said that the Skurgg chassis was "massively neutered" in 2.0. That's not the case, at all. It's barely been changed from the way it was used in 1.0. You can't run 4x Karthakk Pirates, but nobody did that anyway because four PS1 pilots was always bad.

The only things that were taken away from it are the missile and torpedo slots, and Rebel Nym. Anything else that was taken away were also taken from all other factions, which is a wash.

13 minutes ago, freakyg3 said:

both of my lists contained loks - loks are heavy hitters with a lot of hit points - not much can stand up to them in a toe to toe battle

Riiiight:

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v4!s!144:-1,138,-1,67,-1,-1,149:-1:-1:U.114,U.1;88:138,-1,-1,5,70,-1,-1:-1:-1:;88:138,-1,-1,5,69,-1,-1:-1:-1:;88:-1,-1,-1,5,71,-1,-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

16 minutes ago, freakyg3 said:

both of my lists contained loks - loks are heavy hitters with a lot of hit points - not much can stand up to them in a toe to toe battle

Or even this:

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v4!s!144:-1,138,-1,67,-1,-1,149:-1:-1:U.114,U.1;87:120,137,136,90,5,69,-1,-1:-1:-1:;87:120,137,136,90,5,69,-1,-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

14 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I get that their was a very broken synergy between Nym and Miranda Rebel side. Yet now that the Rebels don't have access to it, what Scum side synergy existed in 1.0 that warranted the massive neutering that the Scurrg base chassis got in 2.0?

The Scurrg itself didn't get too neutered, but all the mechanics it abused did. No perfect knowledge bombing, no truly unlimited bombs unless you Gonk, no inability to be arc-dodged and the 2 auto damage of TLT against 2 or fewer agi ships, no absurd action economy, no higher PS than what is printed, the damage deck doesn't make those crits inflicted so bad, etc. Thus, when the chassis itself is only slightly nerfed, the nerfing of its game by extension nerfs the ship's playstyle and thus its viability to Oblivion. The same can be said of the Genius nerfs throughout 1st edition nerfing both versions of Nym: the pilot was indirectly nerfed by the tweaking of his clutch rules.

But I will say that it feels awesome to be the one with an advantage flying Soontir against Nym now. It feels so, so, good as opposed to "Why didn't I take Kylo and PS0/blind him?" Planning ahead and outmaneuvering matter!

14 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I get that their was a very broken synergy between Nym and Miranda Rebel side. Yet now that the Rebels don't have access to it, what Scum side synergy existed in 1.0 that warranted the massive neutering that the Scurrg base chassis got in 2.0?

Right now turrets, astros, and bombs are all very weak, but as new upgrades are released those slots with become valuable.

2.0s sales strategy is to sell you future upgrades to make ships more viable, and itll happen because they want the money