What do you think makes a good list? I am able to jam a bunch of stuff together in 800 points but it always feels a bit mismatched.

I have found activation control is useful, having large numbers of squads that can activate when you want them to seems to do well. Taking a majority of corps units so when you give out order tokens you only have corps left in the stack. Cards like HQ uplink, and long-range comm-link work well in this type of list. The downfall seems to be that you often won't have tools to deal with different opposing armies, balancing impact, long range, and fast units can be tricky. As a rebel player this is apparent in tournaments when I take enough stuff to deal with 3x speeder bike lists (snipers, Z6, fleets with concussion grenades) I then don't have enough stuff to deal with 3x AT-RT lists (impact grenades, laser cannon AT-RTs, and Air Speeders - say what you will they are great at killing AT-RTs). Luke is a great all round unit. Is he auto-include in rebel lists at the moment?

Armies with a variety of unit types can have more diversity but you often pay more for non-corps units and you lose the ability to activate what you want when you want with different tokens in the stack. I find that the opposing player can simply out activate you, resulting in shots at the end of turn 2 that you can't prevent or retaliate.

I guess I am a little lost on how rebels should be played and am looking for some general rebel list building advice. When I compare to imperials they have DLTs (long range for suppressing troopers, doesn't exhaust, and impact) and speeder bikes (good at flanking for killing troopers in cover and impact) which are both cheap and very good in multiple rolls I feel like the rebel units are sub-par which tells me I don't really know what I should be doing with them.

Any advice would be great. Thanks!

Luke is kind of an auto-include right now, just because he brings so much value to the table at 160 points base, and he brings Force Push with him, which is arguably the strongest upgrade card available. He got even stronger with Emergency Stims.

Basically, you want a core of 4 Rebel Troopers with a Z-6 for efficiency's sake and having enough troops to "get things done" - hold objectives, etc. You'll ultimately want 5 corps as a baseline. Then the rest can be tweaked to whatever you feel is strong to bring. Bringing enough Impact is only an issue if you feel like engaging enemy armor is a must, you can often just avoid it with positioning (heavy cover, dodge, running out of line of sight.) The main exception to this is the flamethrower AT-RT, which you can use Luke to deal with. We'll be getting the FD turret in October, which will open up more list building possibilities (70 points for 2 impact at range 4 is pretty nice.)

I think Rebel units feel sub par for two reasons, one is that our cheap infantry lack surge: hit and two is that white defense save. We rely hugely on cover and dodge tokens. Rebel troopers also make up for their general inaccuracy by throwing more crits with the Z-6 trooper, so it generally evens out when those high variance shots come through.

Re: Activations, you've hit the nail on the head, which is why the most successful rebel lists are looking at 9+ activations, 10 is becoming the average for lists considered "competitive," and it's going higher with the addition of the sniper.

tl;dr, always be in cover, always be dodging. Rebels are actually quite resilient under those conditions. Just watch out for flametroopers and AT-ST grenade launchers.

I can tell you that rebel units are not sub par. It's the opposite: Stormtroopers are naked so bad, you can't play them without heavy weapon. And even with heavy weapon: In cover the Z6 Rebel Troopers outclass a DLT Stormtrooper unit. The only real advantage is their range 4, which (at best) lasts one round. You don't believe me? Don't trust your feeling, trust math and look at this post:
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/278821-weapon-and-unit-efficiency-analysis-never-tell-me-the-odds/
They even generate better hits against armor than a DLT unit! ?.

20 hours ago, Staelwulf said:

I can tell you that rebel units are not sub par. It's the opposite: Stormtroopers are naked so bad, you can't play them without heavy weapon. And even with heavy weapon: In cover the Z6 Rebel Troopers outclass a DLT Stormtrooper unit. The only real advantage is their range 4, which (at best) lasts one round. You don't believe me? Don't trust your feeling, trust math and look at this post:
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/278821-weapon-and-unit-efficiency-analysis-never-tell-me-the-odds/
They even generate better hits against armor than a DLT unit! ?.

Oh I know that maths. That is what was telling me I was doing something wrong.

22 hours ago, Qark said:

I feel like the rebel units are sub-par which tells me I don't really know what I should be doing with them.

Hence this post and asking for help.

On 9/10/2018 at 6:09 PM, Staelwulf said:

I can tell you that rebel units are not sub par. It's the opposite: Stormtroopers are naked so bad, you can't play them without heavy weapon. And even with heavy weapon: In cover the Z6 Rebel Troopers outclass a DLT Stormtrooper unit. The only real advantage is their range 4, which (at best) lasts one round. You don't believe me? Don't trust your feeling, trust math and look at this post:
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/278821-weapon-and-unit-efficiency-analysis-never-tell-me-the-odds/
They even generate better hits against armor than a DLT unit! ?.

While I agree that naked stormtroopers are bad and outclassed by rebels, I have a problem with the Z6 outclassing the DLT. Range 4 with 2 red dice with surge vs 6 white no surge at range 3, I'll take the DLT any day of the week. There's something to be said about consistency that will not show up in the math. The Z6 can potentially out power the DLT, but how often will that happen? The chart for the Z6 claims it'll happen 16.75% of the time which isn't really enough in my eyes to say that it's outright better especially since it's more likely to roll 6 blanks than that. I play rebels exclusively and I've seen the Z6 roll 3 or more hits maybe half a dozen times. And the armor penetration? It's the same argument: just because you can, doesn't mean you will.

As for OP, I've found success with keeping two AT-RTs with the laser cannon around for armor on every list, and a pair of fleet troopers to shut down any flanks by bikes to work fantastic. I haven' had a chance to play with han or the commandos, but I would imagine placing charges on the sides of your armies in defense could screw up the normal move aim shoot plan with bikes as it makes positioning harder. That being said about charges, they do have the problem of not being able to be touched off after a compulsory move.

I think a good list is always tied to a good strategy. And good strategies are always tied to the good tactics. A great list is flexible enough to allow you to adapt your strategies and tactics to your opponent's strengths and weakness, as well as to the game objectives.

Personally, I like to build my armies around two, maybe three, task forces -- a collection of units that I group together. This means I tend to have two commanders so that I don't have worry about issuing orders if those two units are split up across the map, while also enjoying the synergies that those commanders bring to the rest of the Army. You don't have to have two commanders for two task forces, but it does work well. I also like the flexibility that two sub-units give me. If on a given game I want a balance of offense and defense, one task force can hold down the backfield, while the other moves up. If I want to play aggressive, they can work together to cover the other's flanks, divert attention, etc. A two-part Army also helps keep me organized. And I need all the help I can get on that front. All this is strategy.

Until Han came out, this meant a good list for me usually started with Luke and Leia. (And now we get to the list building.) Luke is a tank, but does better when he's got some support backing him up. Leia is a supporter, and so is at her best when her buffs are optimized. Meanwhile, I love running wolf packs of AT-STs. So maybe one of the task forces is Luke and three walkers. Maybe I'll have them all move up the map together with Luke enjoying the cover provided by the walkers until he's ready to jump into action. To me, this is a good pairing because Leia's buffs are optimized for trooper units (Mostly because of Inspire, but No Time for Sorrows is nice too). These are all tactics.

A three Task Force Army might be Luke by himself on one flank (TF Luke), Leia with the main effort of troopers in the middle (TF Leia), and task force of AT-STs on the opposite flank (TF Chickens). That's a strategy that forces the opponent to make some early decisions about who's he's going to pay more attention to -- Luke to the left or those three walkers on the right. The more you can force your opponent to react to you (rather than the other way around) the better.

Finally, you're totally on the money regarding activations. More are obviously better. And if you're going to have fewer, you'd better be bringing some good strategies to offset that. Still trying to figure that out myself. I recently played Imperials (vs. Rebels) and it was so frustrating not being able to come close on activations. The best I could put together was an 8 activation list (vs my opponents commando-infused 11 activations!). I felt like the game was lost before it even started. (And I was right, but I gave him a good run for his money :-)

Anyway, I hope any of this helps. Good luck!

Well that depends on your definition of good. Plus how rebels "should" be played and building their list is two different things. Playing happens with dice and another person. List building happens alone with scratch paper or an app.

Most important are the out of game, though not necessarily out of universe, considerations. Reality is very important.

Cohesion. Everything should look like it's supposed to be together as well as complimenting each others in-game strengths/weaknesses. Ie, not mixing wampas with banthas or whatever. Unless perhaps if you painted your wampas brown and made up a story about some bipedal desert predator. Some people justify such things by saying they have a "ragtag force of misfits". However, this often falls flat aesthetically, because a bunch of ragtag irregulars is not the same thing as a mix of units that make no *&^*&^ sense. A unit being rough around the edges is very different from two people being prepared for mutually exclusive theaters of operation. D20 got really out of hand in this way.

Practicality. List should be paintable and affordable. This varies by income and painting ability. A dream list that walks around with nothing but a coat of primer is worse than a fully painted but horribly imbalanced army any day. Paintjobs are real, stats are pretend. You don't have to get super elaborate, even a Micro Machines quality of paintjob will look good during games. It's amazing how once I swore off unpainted models, I suddenly found the time to paint models that I had allegedly been too busy for before. Then there's the money. If you have to rob Peter to pay Paul when it comes to buying your army, that list will always seem to underperform. And each model's every flaw will stand out in your eyes.

Variety. Seemingly oxymoronic with cohesion. Always take a mix of different heavy weapons and a variety of unit types unless a very specific backstory prevents it, even if there is no good mathematical reason to do so. Taking 6 identical troops units is boring. You don't play to get bored and neither does your opponent. Besides, you never know when that one "underpowered" unit/weapon/item and its oddball special ability is going to be exactly what you wish you'd had for this game's terrain/scenario/opponent. And that can vary quite a bit by game rules and background. For a historical example, if I was playing early 14th century Scots I would have a pretty bland list, there's just not much to pick from. Whereas when I play late medieval continental armies variety is the norm. As a very specific Legion example, I find this means always taking at least one ion gun, since I use basic rebel troopers or Imperial snowtroopers as my corps choices. With my 3 squads of snowtroopers, taking 3 flametroopers is not an option for a good list.

Yes even in a competitive list for a tournament. People brush this off for various reasons, but all the king's horses and all the kings rationalizations can't make an unpainted army look nice, nor do they make an undefeated army consisting of Darth Sidious leading a horde of gonks seem believable. What you become in real life is too serious to ignore amidst all the dice rolls. For what does it profit a man to gain the world championship title and lose his soul?

Right now, range is king. The reason why is that it gives you the chance to shoot and hit units before they get their dodge tokens or get behind cover. Once they are protected, they are much harder to take out. This is why the DLT is so popular. Even if you only get a pot shot at Luke on your opening turn, take it. If you can't put suppression out on someone, shoot Luke. That extra wound might make the difference down the road.

Once we get more of our exciting ranged options such as the big guns, snipers, and commandos, things will likely even out a little more with which models are the best.

Think in terms of old school tactics. Having a reserve is incredibly helpful. I usually use my speeder bikes like this. They don't go charging headlong into a fight. They usually wait until I see a spot that held strong for too long and use them to break that line, Or use them to break a wavering flank that is desperately trying to keep me from objectives.

As mentioned above. A lot of it will depend on your style and tactics. My advice, lose games, but figure out why. Look at the options in your army that can combat those problems and start putting them in your lists. I've gone with large numbers of DLTs and it's starting to show its success against others with the range it provides and the ability to put out suppression before my opponent does. Remember, putting out suppression on an opposing unit that hasn't activated could be the reason one of your units doesn't get hit with suppression.

9 hours ago, crx3800 said:

Right now, range is king.

Completely disagree. There's a reason why Snowtroopers are vastly superior to Stormtroopers and Fleet Troopers are really good. If I had to pick a single thing that is broken right now, I'd say it is units/models with Pierce. Snipers are going to completely change the competitive meta when they are fully released for both sides.

7 hours ago, Hoffburger said:

Completely disagree. There's a reason why Snowtroopers are vastly superior to Stormtroopers and Fleet Troopers are really good. If I had to pick a single thing that is broken right now, I'd say it is units/models with Pierce. Snipers are going to completely change the competitive meta when they are fully released for both sides.

Snowtroopers are in no way "vastly superior" to stormies. They are used for different things. Snowies are great for close combat, but what if you have to hold and objective and the opponent stays at range 2-3? Stormies are all purpose, leaning more to long range and holding objectives, while snowies are the close in assault troops. There's a balance to be found.

With regards to pierce, I disagree. Really good does not mean broken. Units with pierce generally pay for it with short range or point cost.

I see what you are getting at, but range allows you to hit threats like fleet troopers and snowtroopers before they get to you. Ive had great times with Vader and most of my experience is with him, but as soon as I started running the AT ST instead with its ability to hand out massive amounts of suppression, I haven't had to worry as much about those close range units getting close enough to hurt.

Maybe it's just meta, but locally, hitting early makes a huge difference.

17 hours ago, Qwrety77 said:

Snowtroopers are in no way "vastly superior" to stormies. They are used for different things. Snowies are great for close combat, but what if you have to hold and objective and the opponent stays at range 2-3? Stormies are all purpose, leaning more to long range and holding objectives, while snowies are the close in assault troops. There's a balance to be found.

With regards to pierce, I disagree. Really good does not mean broken. Units with pierce generally pay for it with short range or point cost.

11 hours ago, crx3800 said:

I see what you are getting at, but range allows you to hit threats like fleet troopers and snowtroopers before they get to you. Ive had great times with Vader and most of my experience is with him, but as soon as I started running the AT ST instead with its ability to hand out massive amounts of suppression, I haven't had to worry as much about those close range units getting close enough to hurt.

Maybe it's just meta, but locally, hitting early makes a huge difference.

Both of these posts sound like you need to be playing with more terrain. There aren't a ton of opportunities where range 4 matters over range 3 (Snows are also really good at range 3 because they can peek out, shoot, and then duck back behind a building so that you can't even shoot back).

3 hours ago, Hoffburger said:

Both of these posts sound like you need to be playing with more terrain. There aren't a ton of opportunities where range 4 matters over range 3 (Snows are also really good at range 3 because they can peek out, shoot, and then duck back behind a building so that you can't even shoot back).

If there are no sightlines on your table over range 3, then maybe you're playing with too much. That little meerkat manuever is neat, but how often do you use it to real effect? Snowies may just fit your playstyle more, and that's great. All I'm saying is that both have their strengths and weaknesses, but they're pretty equal.

We play with plenty more than most of those paltry Gencon tables. Of course, tall buildings or towers could change what your terrain does to the game. With six feet across there is plenty of room to see something.

On 9/13/2018 at 10:49 PM, Qwrety77 said:

If there are no sightlines on your table over range 3, then maybe you're playing with too much. That little meerkat manuever is neat, but how often do you use it to real effect? Snowies may just fit your playstyle more, and that's great. All I'm saying is that both have their strengths and weaknesses, but they're pretty equal.

There are plenty of sightlines that reach all the way across the table. The issue is that most players seem to be playing without large obstacles that block LoS. LoS blocking terrain makes snowtroopers insane.

Rebels are a little more difficult to build a list for than Empire, as your units are naturally more fragile and lack Impact.

However, Rebels enjoy access to cheap and effective commanders. I always run two; I start with Leia, and then add Han or Luke. Depending on your choice of Han or Luke, you will need to supplement their weaknesses with other units.

After your commander choices, add 4 Rebel Troopers with Z-6. Grab a unit or two of Fleets.

With your remaining points, decide what sort of support units you want. Do you want AT-RTs with lasers, or will you try and ignore armor entirely and grab some snipers? Think about the weaknesses of your army and how you will counter enemy builds. Unlike Imperials, as Rebels you have to really decide what you want to do with your opponent’s armor. If you include Impact it will be an intentional choice, not a side benefit of including units you want anyway.

The last piece of advice I can give is to go light on upgrades. Fill out your units and heavy weapon/hardpoint options first. If you have points left over, grab some upgrades for your commanders. Trooper units are generally not worth putting grenades/scopes/hooks etc. on. You want your list to be as lean and mean as possible.

Upgrades to consider on commanders: environmental gear, stims, esteemed leader. Force push is mandatory on Luke.

1 hour ago, Orkimedes said:

The last piece of advice I can give is to go light on upgrades. Fill out your units and heavy weapon/hardpoint options first. If you have points left over, grab some upgrades for your commanders. Trooper units are generally not worth putting grenades/scopes/hooks etc. on.

Yes this.

I like to take as many models as possible (in every games system) and then use upgrades as spackle to fill in the holes. So when I am starting a game and have few models painted I'll take a ton of upgrades, and gradually replace those with more models. In some games this works better than others. I accidentally broke our Frostgrave campaign doing this. No one wanted to play me in the league cause it was a guaranteed loss

2 hours ago, Orkimedes said:

Rebels are a little more difficult to build a list for than Empire, as your units are naturally more fragile and lack Impact.

However, Rebels enjoy access to cheap and effective commanders. I always run two; I start with Leia, and then add Han or Luke. Depending on your choice of Han or Luke, you will need to supplement their weaknesses with other units.

After your commander choices, add 4 Rebel Troopers with Z-6. Grab a unit or two of Fleets.

With your remaining points, decide what sort of support units you want. Do you want AT-RTs with lasers, or will you try and ignore armor entirely and grab some snipers? Think about the weaknesses of your army and how you will counter enemy builds. Unlike Imperials, as Rebels you have to really decide what you want to do with your opponent’s armor. If you include Impact it will be an intentional choice, not a side benefit of including units you want anyway.

The last piece of advice I can give is to go light on upgrades. Fill out your units and heavy weapon/hardpoint options first. If you have points left over, grab some upgrades for your commanders. Trooper units are generally not worth putting grenades/scopes/hooks etc. on. You want your list to be as lean and mean as possible.

Upgrades to consider on commanders: environmental gear, stims, esteemed leader. Force push is mandatory on Luke.

29 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Yes this.

I like to take as many models as possible (in every games system) and then use upgrades as spackle to fill in the holes. So when I am starting a game and have few models painted I'll take a ton of upgrades, and gradually replace those with more models. In some games this works better than others. I accidentally broke our Frostgrave campaign doing this. No one wanted to play me in the league cause it was a guaranteed loss

I highly disagree. Impact grenades are amazing on Snowtroopers. The officers will be very good on Snowtroopers and Fleets. Stims are very good on Snowtroopers. HQ Uplink is very very good with sniper squads.

17 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

I highly disagree. Impact grenades are amazing on Snowtroopers. The officers will be very good on Snowtroopers and Fleets. Stims are very good on Snowtroopers. HQ Uplink is very very good with sniper squads.

I agree with you that upgrades can definitely help a lot, but I think what people are saying is that if you have the choice between more upgrades or more units, you should take the units most of the time.

40 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

I highly disagree. Impact grenades are amazing on Snowtroopers. The officers will be very good on Snowtroopers and Fleets. Stims are very good on Snowtroopers. HQ Uplink is very very good with sniper squads.

But then I'd have to leave more toys sitting in the toybox!

First, know thyself. I tend to forget special rules, one-time special powers, etc. and always do better with an extra figure than an invisible upgrade. I still take upgrades, just, not a ton of them usually. Though this varies by game system. Some games I just play cause it's what my friends are into, so I paint a pretty minimal army and I'll "buy" lots of extra abilities to get to the proper points total for that particular system.

15 hours ago, Hoffburger said:

I highly disagree. Impact grenades are amazing on Snowtroopers. The officers will be very good on Snowtroopers and Fleets. Stims are very good on Snowtroopers. HQ Uplink is very very good with sniper squads.

Yeah, Snowtroopers with Impact grenades are an exception. Did you read my Snowtrooper article . In any case he was asking about Rebels.

I’m not sold on uplink but I could see the case for those on sniper teams. Officers aren’t out yet but will definitely be good on Fleets and Snows.

It’s just a general guideline. I’ve seen people throwing like concussion grenades and scopes on Rebel Troopers, which is not optimal.

31 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:

Yeah, Snowtroopers with Impact grenades are an exception. Did you read my Snowtrooper article . In any case he was asking about Rebels.

I’m not sold on uplink but I could see the case for those on sniper teams. Officers aren’t out yet but will definitely be good on Fleets and Snows.

It’s just a general guideline. I’ve seen people throwing like concussion grenades and scopes on Rebel Troopers, which is not optimal.

I think the uplink will be really fun for the forthcoming artillery, to setup an independent battery far behind your lines, and to allow fast moving vehicles to roam wherever they please.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

I think the uplink will be really fun for the forthcoming artillery, to setup an independent battery far behind your lines, and to allow fast moving vehicles to roam wherever they please.

Yeah, uplink is a really flexible upgrade. In addition to the activation control, it triggers off command cards that have “when issued an order” effects, like My Ally is the Force, No Time for Sorrows, and Imperial Discipline.

Don't forget new ways to motivate.

Trigger all your uplinks the same round to maximize the number of units that can choose to take a wound for an extra action.

1 hour ago, crx3800 said:

Don't forget new ways to motivate.

Trigger all your uplinks the same round to maximize the number of units that can choose to take a wound for an extra action.

Yup, good call.