I think one thing that will makes bullseye abilities like hlc or crackshot worth it is if it pulls players to reposition instead of token up and create situations where they have to decide if they want to be in a hlc bullseye with a focus or evade, or reposition out but risk still being in arc with no defensive tokens!

i think hlc pays for its self if it causes your opponent to make mistakes to avoid it, even if it never goes off all game. It plays a mind game for sure

think about it, if an opponent tries to dodger range 2 or 3 hlc or crackshot but lands clipping your range one and maybe even loses their own shot, that’s a win win worth 1-4 points in my opinion

10 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Def feels like bullseye is a LOT easier to land at range 1, and therefore a lot easier to land with high initiative ships that can boost


The kimoglia has neither, but fortunately it's incredibly solidly priced and a very good addition to most scum squads ?

Are you going with the named dudes or just executioners?

2 hours ago, TheOz said:

I think one thing that will makes bullseye abilities like hlc or crackshot worth it is if it pulls players to reposition

Crackshot is an ability you only get to use once, so it being bullseye only isn’t nearly the penalty people think it to be.

Often Crackshot was nice to not use to force people to overspend or underspend tokens, now it can have the added benefit of people trying to avoid bullseye before you even roll attack dice.

Where Crackshot suffers is in the swarm where you won’t get all bullseye arcs on a single target. But the cost reduction and the fact that it mostly remains unchanged as a tool for Aces means it’s still a pretty good card IMO.

You example is one of the reasons why.

15 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:

Crackshot is an ability you only get to use once, so it being bullseye only isn’t nearly the penalty people think it to be.

Often Crackshot was nice to not use to force people to overspend or underspend tokens, now it can have the added benefit of people trying to avoid bullseye before you even roll attack dice.

Where Crackshot suffers is in the swarm where you won’t get all bullseye arcs on a single target. But the cost reduction and the fact that it mostly remains unchanged as a tool for Aces means it’s still a pretty good card IMO.

You example is one of the reasons why.

Only a 2 red primary, but Quinn Jast does get to recharge Crack Shot.

With the movement being more snapped in Bullseye arcs have taken a hit. I think this arc is going to be proton torpedoes of 2nd edition, the less people use them the better their list flies. IMHO all bullseye upgrades are worth 0 points.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

With the movement being more snapped in Bullseye arcs have taken a hit. I think this arc is going to be proton torpedoes of 2nd edition, the less people use them the better their list flies. IMHO all bullseye upgrades are worth 0 points.

I think you have the wrong idea, fly like you don’t have a bullseye ability, don’t force it to happen, but let your opponent over commit to not being in your bullseye. Like I previously pointed out, hlc and crack shot can cause some level of mind games, even if they don’t actually trigger. If anything the nerfed repositioning helps bullseye.

People will give up having tokens and fail to dodge your full arc and there for just make it easier for you to kill them with just your primary.

I wouldn’t base my whole list around this mind you, but if the points are available I would still consider bullseye effects

Regarding Soontir fel: I've flown against him and he has no trouble lining up bullseye shots. Being i6 really helps him because he knows where to put the bullseye.

For lower init pilots, the best use of bullseye is probably to put it somewhere that forces bad choices for your opponent. I'm planning on trying a kimo in a funsies list with bombs for more area control

14 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

The kimoglia has neither, but fortunately it's incredibly solidly priced and a very good addition to most scum squads ?

I can't help but compare the kimo with the punisher, and then it just feels expensive. What are your loadouts that feel decently priced? Torps+r2 allows regen that the punisher doesn't have, but wastes the primary. Alternately, torani with expert handling (and perhaps painbot) brings the most bullseye utility.

double post

2 hours ago, TheOz said:

I think you have the wrong idea, fly like you don’t have a bullseye ability, don’t force it to happen, but let your opponent over commit to not being in your bullseye. Like I previously pointed out, hlc and crack shot can cause some level of mind games, even if they don’t actually trigger. If anything the nerfed repositioning helps bullseye.

People will give up having tokens and fail to dodge your full arc and there for just make it easier for you to kill them with just your primary.

I wouldn’t base my whole list around this mind you, but if the points are available I would still consider bullseye effects

The same idea was with torpedoes, only thing is equipping an attack that had a lot of requirements also added to your MOV which means when you lose your ship you gave them more points. Now with the 200 point limit the points won't be as tight but you can bet MOV will still be a big determining factor. Any upgrade that is not used to remove an opponent's ship, or keep your ship from being removed, is just putting a bonus on top of the bounty.

19 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Wedge. Without any boosts or repositions. I dont know if this provides any hints at anything but it does at least look cool.

That if you want to avoid bullseye fire, you want to close from the target at about 11 o-clock?

Of course, throw barrel rolls in and the picture shifts dramatically, but generally, spending an action to reposition to get a bullseye costs you about as much as the action spent on something else would have done. Unless you've got a linked roll, of course.

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

The same idea was with torpedoes, only thing is equipping an attack that had a lot of requirements also added to your MOV which means when you lose your ship you gave them more points. Now with the 200 point limit the points won't be as tight but you can bet MOV will still be a big determining factor. Any upgrade that is not used to remove an opponent's ship, or keep your ship from being removed, is just putting a bonus on top of the bounty.

Yes but then you could say that about any upgrade....or ship....sr vader and a 100+point bid?

and I would argue that crack shot for half a 1.0 point or hlc for 2 1.0 points is a lot less of your squad then most of those torpedos, yet has a similar effect, and I’d say if they force a mistake by the opponent, even if you didn’t use it directly, but it allowed you an advantage, then it actually did help you kill them and take their bounty, not yours

I'm thinking HLC won't be worth that much due to the difficulties of getting someone in bullseye at R 2-3. If someone is flying straight at you and maybe in a formation, sure, but if not, then it's not that easy.

25 minutes ago, TheOz said:

Yes but then you could say that about any upgrade....or ship....sr vader and a 100+point bid?

and I would argue that crack shot for half a 1.0 point or hlc for 2 1.0 points is a lot less of your squad then most of those torpedos, yet has a similar effect, and I’d say if they force a mistake by the opponent, even if you didn’t use it directly, but it allowed you an advantage, then it actually did help you kill them and take their bounty, not yours

I'm not saying that about any upgrade on a ship. I'm saying on upgrades that take the firing arc and cut it into almost nothing. For example:

7 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'm thinking HLC won't be worth that much due to the difficulties of getting someone in bullseye at R 2-3. If someone is flying straight at you and maybe in a formation, sure, but if not, then it's not that easy.

nuff said

4 hours ago, Marinealver said:

The same idea was with torpedoes, only thing is equipping an attack that had a lot of requirements also added to your MOV which means when you lose your ship you gave them more points. Now with the 200 point limit the points won't be as tight but you can bet MOV will still be a big determining factor. Any upgrade that is not used to remove an opponent's ship, or keep your ship from being removed, is just putting a bonus on top of the bounty.

It's not the same at all, though.

Proton Torpedoes in 1e was a waste of time because of the stack of requirements needed to use them.

Nobody flew torpedoes in 1e without expecting to use them, and treat them only as a bonus the way @TheOz is suggesting. That simply isn't true.

The difference between 0.5 1e points and 4 1e points is already vast, even before you get to the fact that proton torpedoes required getting and spending a target lock just to trigger. It's difficult, but achieving a Crack Shot, Predator or HLC shot is entirely possible in 2e without using a single action and only as a result of maneuvers. Outside of a very few niche cases in 1e, that was never true for proton torpedoes. Even the times when you could get locks easily (eg. LRS) the fact you still had to spend the lock was a huge cost, and in almost all cases there is no additional cost associated with the 2e bullseye upgrades.

Proton torpedoes were never a 'bonus' either. They occupied the exact same arc as the primary weapon, which means they didn't have the same sort of influence as the bullseye.

I feel like you missed the point @TheOz made. If you have an enemy lined up in your bullseye with a bonus ready to use, you may force the opponent to make a difficult decision - they can barrel roll out of the bullseye and dodge the worst combination of effects, but they may still end up in the primary and now they've spent their action on moving rather than tokening up. Either you hit them with your full mods against their best defensive mods, or you shoot them with some mods while they have none. Basically win-win for the attacker, but the defender can mitigate it if they're able to make the right decision. There was no such choice to be made with protons in 1e. If you could dodge the proton shot, there was no drawback because you were also dodging the primary.

54 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I'm saying on upgrades that take the firing arc and cut it into almost nothing

But most bullseye effects don't do that! That's the point!

If you don't get them in your bullseye, you still get to shoot with the primary. You lose nothing but a small extra dice mod. If you don't get to trigger Predator every round, it doesn't matter because it only costs 2 points. It will pay for itself even if you only trigger it once or twice a game. If any of these bullseye effects had action costs, or needed a token to be spent or required you to make a decision before you're able to measure arc or range then yeah, you might have a point. But they don't. There's no drawback to taking Crack Shot so long as you presume you can get a decently modded range 1 shot at some point in the game. And if you can't do that, you either have more serious problems with your list than a 1 point upgrade, or the fault lies with the player.

I'm finding it not worth the points to get things that require bullseye arcs. Sure, it might be a once a game thing, but is it worth the points for that "maybe it will happen" situation. I'm finding better things to spend my points on?

8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'm finding it not worth the points to get things that require bullseye arcs. Sure, it might be a once a game thing, but is it worth the points for that "maybe it will happen" situation. I'm finding better things to spend my points on?

There often won't be better options at the moment. None of these upgrades are expensive enough to add up to a whole ship and there is only so far a sensible bid can go, especially on mid to low initiative.

4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'm finding it not worth the points to get things that require bullseye arcs. Sure, it might be a once a game thing, but is it worth the points for that "maybe it will happen" situation. I'm finding better things to spend my points on?

I think it’s dependent on the squad and the ship in question. Crack shot seems pretty worth it on any ship with a talent You don’t want to waste but don’t have room for a lot of points, especially at higher ps you are probably gonna land a bullseye once a game, or like I said, let your opponent over think.

pred and hlc sound fantastic on anything that can stay in the fight like a defender or a b wing, tight k turns and barrel roll

of course I feel people on it if they don’t want anything to do with bullseye requirements, and it won’t be a try to get in every squad thing, but I feel there are certain ships and squads that can benefit using some of those upgrades

9 hours ago, gadwag said:

I can't help but compare the kimo with the punisher, and then it just feels expensive. What are your loadouts that feel decently priced? Torps+r2 allows regen that the punisher doesn't have, but wastes the primary. Alternately, torani with expert handling (and perhaps painbot) brings the most bullseye utility.

it's literally just an Executioner, with optional r5-p8 or crackshot/fearless

ignore reload, it's a trap! Dang thing already has a 3 die primary

6 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

There often won't be better options at the moment. None of these upgrades are expensive enough to add up to a whole ship and there is only so far a sensible bid can go, especially on mid to low initiative.

This is a good point as well, if your not running an i6 I see no point in running a bid of 10 or more points, and there are not a lot of great talents, more reason why crack shot really isn’t that bad of an option, or predator

26 minutes ago, TheOz said:

i6 I see no point in running a bid of 10 or more points

Running Mux so needing to lock in as second player to ensure Mux's ability sticks on that I5/I6 Ace you have in arc so his squad mates can burn the ace down before it fires.

From my own playtesting using IG-88 and HLC, the bullseye is a lot easier to use if you suddenly have something to limit your opponent's movements, like proximity mines. Carefully placed mines (and keeping in mind that there are 2 per upgrade), can sometimes force an enemy to make a difficult choice:

1) Flee and get shot in the back by a normal shot without any return fire.

2) Risk being hit by a mine while picking your manoeuver.

3) Make the manoeuver that dodges the mine, but will likely land you in the bullseye of the ship that just S-looped.

If you can't out PS your opponent, you can instead limit his options so that they are all horrible

On 9/9/2018 at 10:24 AM, Boom Owl said:

Wedge. Without any boosts or repositions. I dont know if this provides any hints at anything but it does at least look cool.

This image makes me think of a music albums cover. Its awesome

12 minutes ago, RafaelNN said:

This image makes me think of a music albums cover. Its awesome

The positioning of the range rulers transposed as simple lines would almost make a nice tattoo. It could use some accent though.

7 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I'm finding it not worth the points to get things that require bullseye arcs. Sure, it might be a once a game thing, but is it worth the points for that "maybe it will happen" situation. I'm finding better things to spend my points on?

If you're going to use a Bullseye ship, you want to lean into it.

Fel is going to be lining the arc up anyway, so upgrades like Predator are incredible useful on him. He's especially great when paired with an ally who can Coordinate him, potentially allowing him to take four actions in a single turn if he started out unstressed and had a blue maneuver dialed in.

Ships like Arvel, Quadjumpers with Unkar Plutt, and a crew-using ships with Zeb will basically want to plan their maneuvers on the assumption that they'll be flying face-first into the enemy. It's the easiest way to line up their abilities, and you'll be getting that bullseye arc more often than not. Norra Wexley's ARC pairs very well with Zeb and Predator for this reason.

3 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

If you're going to use a Bullseye ship, you want to lean into it.

Fel is going to be lining the arc up anyway, so upgrades like Predator are incredible useful on him. He's especially great when paired with an ally who can Coordinate him, potentially allowing him to take four actions in a single turn if he started out unstressed and had a blue maneuver dialed in.

Ships like Arvel, Quadjumpers with Unkar Plutt, and a crew-using ships with Zeb will basically want to plan their maneuvers on the assumption that they'll be flying face-first into the enemy. It's the easiest way to line up their abilities, and you'll be getting that bullseye arc more often than not. Norra Wexley's ARC pairs very well with Zeb and Predator for this reason.

I can see possibly for some builds at close range (but wouldnt bank on it happening). I still don't see it for HLC, though.