199/200

Baron Zachareth [38] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 38

Spearmen [59] 3x3
Citadel Weapons Master [8]
Front Line Rune Golem [7]
Marching Cornicen [2]
Total Unit Cost: 76

Heavy Crossbowmen [27] 3x1
Tempered Steel [3]
Rank Discipline [4]
Total Unit Cost: 34

Heavy Crossbowmen [27] 3x1
Tempered Steel [3]
Rank Discipline [4]
Total Unit Cost: 34

Rune Golems [17] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 17

So this is the first build I want to play around with. 2x 3x1 Tempered Rank Crossbows I don’t think need any explanation. Synergy comes from Zachareth providing tokens to himself, the blocker Golem, and the Spearmen for CWM/FLG. Rune golem blocks and stuns for the crossbows for as long as possible, and Zachareth tag teams with the spearmen, and hopefully can hold off until they engage or it doesn’t matter anymore before going Betrayer. Spearmen have no use for their modifier at init3 anyway, so i think they’re a natural receiver of Z’s stun tokens.

Debating between marching cornicern and the 1 point bid, and triumphant cry. Marching helps with flexibility and not needing the modifier earlier on, but triumphant cry helps with turn efficiency.

thoughts?

I think the Spearmen don't need Marching Cornicen because they'd rather be charging. Sure, adapting a straight march into a bank is flexible, but not necessary for Spearmen. It could have value against Scuttling Horrors...

But I think Triumphant Cry is good. Like, really good. I've been running the 12-tray Ardus block, and Triumphant Cry pays off every game. Last game, I used it 3 times, enabling me to keep that unit (fully half of my army) swinging. One of those times, the reform allowed me to dodge a charge, the next time I prevented a flank charge, and the final time was the end of the game, but it kept me in my opponent's deployment zone for Break Their Defenses.

@Parakitor

Yeah I threw marching cornicern in there slightly as filler, I wanted aggressive but ran out of points and nothing else I’d rather cut, but the thought process with either was if you end up triggering betrayer early and having to stun your spearmen while they’re still trying to maneuver, the cornicerns negate you needing a modifier dial, but the benefit from MC is significantly less than the AC.

I think triumphant is probably going to be the way to go

I think two crossbow units is too greedy. Especially without marching cornicen, they’re pretty helpless against a lot of enemies. Terrain can help, and I really like hiding behind a rock and shooting around it, but you’d want a bigger bid for that.

Most melee units can cover distance 6-7 with a late move and an early charge, so without cover they might not even get a shot off. They’re surprisingly good in melee, but not THAT good.

Corruption rune is also a pretty sweet buy on any spearmen without lance corporal.

13 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

I think two crossbow units is too greedy. Especially without marching cornicen, they’re pretty helpless against a lot of enemies. Terrain can help, and I really like hiding behind a rock and shooting around it, but you’d want a bigger bid for that.

Most melee units can cover distance 6-7 with a late move and an early charge, so without cover they might not even get a shot off. They’re surprisingly good in melee, but not THAT good.

Corruption rune is also a pretty sweet buy on any spearmen without lance corporal.

Maybe it’s just a difference in how we are playing them, but I can’t think of a stronger, more efficient unit in Daqan to run two of than these Crossbowmen. I’d argue only one 3x1 isn’t enough. Also worth noting, this is my secondary Daqan Army, my primary uses Kari and 4x1 TS Archers. I do like adding MC if I have the points, but have found that I can deploy and play around it, particularly with two units. With two units, I can usually cover almost the entire effective battlefield, and virtually never am at a loss for a target to shoot. If one goes down early due to being out played or whatever, my ranged support isn’t completely gone. I agree if I just line them up across from an enemy melee unit 6-7 trays out and I just wait for them to come to me, the crossbows are probably going to lose that one, which is why I would hardly ever utilize them without some sort of either blocker or maneuver force in front of them. Also the rally/March 1 is great for mitigating that range properly.

I will concede that with the army utilizing 2x crossbowmen that need to be supported, it can make for a very predictable deployment and opening rounds. It can struggle if your opponent does not maneuver to engage you at least semi aggressively.

I do like corruption rune on Spearmen, and think objectively speaking I’d prefer Forged in Battle and Corruption Rune in place of CWM, but a key point of this list was to make the spearmen not expect to ever use their modifier dial so Baron Z can spam Betrayer as much as possible. Might be at the end of the day it’s a “synergy” that’s not worth pursuing, but I think it could be strong.

I think you're missing out on the whole point of Zach. He can give out tokens that ignore wounds. Pile those onto Rune Golems and you've get a really scary unit.

I kind of Dig a block of Golems with wind rune. Z can drop a vitality token early, and the golems can wind rune and raise defense to close in at Init 3. A defense 5 or 6 unit with the ability to ignore a wound or two is fierce.

Something like:

Zach (with shard)

2 Golems with wind rune

2 units of 4 trays Knights, with moment of inspiration

1 unit of 4 trays of spearmen with Greyhaven Channelers and rune of corruption

Zach would vitality the 2 blocks of knights and the golems. The channeler would keep runes favorable and would largely stay out of the fight using the rune of corruption.

Then Zach keeps pumping out vitality tokens to whoever looks like they need it. Once knights are stuck in, they can swing at 3 and go to defense 3.

1 hour ago, Darth Matthew said:

I think you're missing out on the whole point of Zach. He   can give out tokens that ignore wounds. Pile those onto Run  e Golems and you've get a really scary u  nit  . 

Am I though?

I don’t think I am, at least not for his army ability. I’d argue a vitality token on a 77pt Spearstar, providing anti snipe/mortal and keeping it swinging at threat 4-5 with RRB until losing 6 trays, is a markedly better expense than a token saving a random horse on a 39pt unit, that while it increases the longevity of the unit and might be that crucial threat/reroll saving figure, it isn’t uniquely multiplying combat power.

i like a single golem as a blocker, give it a vitality token, and it’s an even better blocker, especially if you decide never to attack and only stun/armor unless the perfect charge opens up. But saving on a wound doesn’t make up for what is still a pretty weak and limiting dial.

Last token on Baron Z makes sense again, to protect the investment on the hero, because they can still be squished, quick.

What I will give you and only table time will ultimately tell which is the better option (granted with a lot of subjectivity) is we are talking about very different implementations of Baron Z on the battlefield. I think running him support-strong all game is going to be very inefficient, as I’m not worth 38 points inefficient. It’s the same as with Hawthorne, if ALL he is going to do all game is rally units and never engage directly or indirectly, the rest of your list better be INCREDIBLE. Ditto with a resurrecting-pure Maro. Not saying there isn’t a place for it, but that’s a lot of points for support only.

What I’m kind of envisioning is pop savior turn 1, especially trying to get those Crossbows extra inspiration, maybe get out another vitality token turn 2, maybe 3, then it’s betrayer time and Z sticks close enough to the spearmen to dump his stun tokens for the rest of the game.

Obviously plenty of ways for this to go horribly wrong, the enemy DOES get a vote, but Overall I think the key to Zach is Early savior, Bettayer heavy, SPRINKLE in Golems, do not pour, and protect some key investments with tokens, and get him in the fight!

22 minutes ago, jcshep19 said:

What I’m kind of envisioning is pop savior turn 1, especially trying to get those Crossbows extra inspiration, maybe get out another vitality token turn 2, maybe 3, then it’s betrayer time and Z sticks close enough to the spearmen to dump his stun tokens for the rest of the game.

I didn't think he could switch roles. The way I read his ability, you get one shot during the game to become the savior or the destroyer. Once chosen, that's what you're stuck with for the rest of the game.

His ability reads: Before your activation, you may receive either "Savior of Carthridge" or "Betrayer of Carthridge." Limit once per game.

To me, that last clause means the entire ability of selecting one of those conditions before your activation can only happen once per game.

@Budgernaut

I could see that, and if that is the correct ruling (I think I heard someone say it the other way and morphed my reality to that) then even more the case for Betrayer FTW.

Banking a turn or two on Saviour was going to be the icing on the cake, but if it’s one or the other, someone’s gotta do some great salesmanship to convince me of the better applications (outside niche specific scenarios) of Saviour of Carthridge.

6 minutes ago, jcshep19 said:

I could see that, and if that is the correct ruling (I think I heard someone say it the other way and morphed my reality to that) then even more the case for Betrayer FTW.

Banking a turn or two on Saviour was going to be the icing on the cake, but if it’s one or the other, someone’s gotta do some great salesmanship to convince me of the better applications (outside niche specific scenarios) of Saviour of Carthridge.

I'm no game theory expert when it comes to Runewars, but I agree with you. He has Brutal 1, Precise 1, and a hit modifier. When would you gain more from stunning him to give another unit an effective +1 health than you get from taking the hit modifier and dealing more damage?

I guess Shard of the Shadow Rune can help out. If you can keep destroying trays, you can keep rallying for inspiration tokens. Then you can spend those inspiration tokens to remove the stun you get from Savior of Carthridge so you can deal more damage (with the hit modifier) and keep rallying. Plus, you could go with Nerekhall training as the Unique upgrade to specialize in ranged attacks. At that point, you are hopefully not in need of using Shard of the Shadow Rune for healing and you can stand back and support from range 1-5. That seems like it could be a decent build for Savior. But again, I think I'd rather have the Baron get into the thick of the action with Betrayer of Carthridge. Brutal 1, Precise 1 and red, red, white sounds too fun to pass up.

4 hours ago, jcshep19 said:

@Budgernaut

could see that, and if that is the correct ruling (I think I heard someone say it the other way and morphed my reality to that) then even more the case for Betrayer FTW.

Banking a turn or two on Saviour was going to be the icing on the cake, but if it’s one or the other, someone’s gotta do some great salesmanship to convince me of the better applications (outside niche specific scenarios) of Saviour of Carthridge.

He's negating up to 11 wounds in a game. If he's throwing that at rune golems, that's like bouncing 44 damage, possibly as much as 66 damage.

I believe his ability to block damage is more impressive than his ability to dish it out.

Another thing to consider is the effect vitality has on unit model upgrades. Weapon master is rad, but a 3/1 can die to a single accuracy. Slap a vitality on him, and he's go staying power.

7 minutes ago, Darth Matthew said:

He's negating up to 11 wounds in a game. If he's throwing that at rune golems, that's like bouncing 44 damage, possibly as much as 66 damage.

I believe his ability to block damage is more impressive than his ability to dish it out.

Another thing to consider is the effect vitality has on unit model upgrades. Weapon master is rad, but a 3/1 can die to a single accuracy. Slap a vitality on him, and he's go staying power.

I hope it ends up being a valid way to build him, and I somewhat expect his other unique to be more Saviour based. As is however, I think he contributes far more to a game with Betrayer, which I’ll point out can still theoretically have him prevent 36-42 damage while also contributing decent damage.

1 hour ago, Darth Matthew said:

Another  thin  g to consider is the effect vitality has on unit model upgrades. Weapon master is rad, but a 3/1 can die to a single accuracy. Slap a vitality on him, and he's go staying pow  er.  

Yeah in case I wasn’t being clear, the vitality token I’m putting on the spearmen is exclusively to be used for CWM or FLG, not “Dave the spearman” hanging out in the back rank. I don’t think I can think of a scenario where I would, MAYBE for the last figure before I’m down to 3 trays, but even then, nah.

@Budgernaut , Yeah so far I’m not convinced of Shard on him, might try it on Kari some time. Could see Nerekhall Training, but right now I think I like him best slick, at least until we figure out what his other unique is.

12 hours ago, jcshep19 said:

What   I’m kind of envisioning is pop savior turn  1, especially trying to get those Crossbows extra in  spiration  , may  be ge  t o  u  t another  v     itality token turn 2, ma  ybe 3,   

I don’t see this as ideal. If Savior popped inspiration tokens, sure. Savior triggers a rally though. So save it for when you get engaged with Scions, Threshers, Reanimate archers, Blighted Vilexium, etc. Then you can reset all upgrades and clear those banes. Using savior on turn 1 to get inspiration tokens is such a limited use.

Though I do realize you though it trigger every turn, so that may have changed your suggestion.

Per the original post. I think a spearstar, BaronZ, crossbows, and the solo Golem are an excellent skeleton of a list. Put vitality on BaronZ, the Golem, and the spearstar. Vitality (as has been mentioned) sounds right now like amazing counter to snipe. For the Golem, a 17 point, 4/3 blocker with i7 shift2+reform is a good deal.

If you intend to go full savior, then bring Nerekhall. Have him commit to being a full buff/debuff unit with some damage application. He allows himself to rally when taking savior, so if he doesn’t have a bane before triggering it, he can generate 3 more vitality tokens over 4 turns with his skill while still shooting.

Well, got two games in this weekend, with a list that is probably not very good:

200/200

Oathsworn Cavalry [34] 2x2
Raven Tabards [2]
Total Unit Cost: 36

Rune Golems [28] 2x1
Visored Helms [7]
Total Unit Cost: 35

Spearmen [40] 3x2
Lance Corporal [6] Raven-Pennon Bearer [5]
Total Unit Cost: 51

Heavy Crossbowmen [27] 3x1
Tempered Steel [3] Marching Cornicen [2] Rank Discipline [4]
Total Unit Cost: 36

Baron Zachareth [38] 1x1
Nerekhall Training [4]
Total Unit Cost: 42

I basically wanted to try him in a "normal" sort of list, to gauge his performance among elements I'm quite familiar with. I went Betrayer both games, though he didn't get attacked very much so he wasn't spamming tokens. Observations:

• Vitality on the Spearmen is pretty cool. Pretty much my opponent just ignored the figure upgrades rather than picking them off when the chance arose, because the choice of removing a full tray or a token was too punishing. Worthwhile, I think.
• Rune Golems got Obcasium both games, which was pretty much a fine trade but not exactly a time to shine. Visored Helms did save a wound in one game, but is probably too expensive to be worth it.
• Nerekhall Training is great, but a bit scary without Fortuna's. WB with a reroll has like 82% chance of rolling at least one surge, but that is not guaranteed. Immobilizing a charging unit is pretty cool, and going down to RR in melee is not a very big downgrade.
• Zachareth need allies nearby, whether to stun or give Vitality. Later in the game, when heavy casualties had been suffered, there was no one around for him to stun, so his damage dropped.
• Pretty solid combatant. RRR plus a hit is pretty good, it turns out, so although he's certainly not Ravos scary, he can cause a legitimate ruckus.
• His dial is kinda weird! His short moves are quite competitive, but he can't move more than 2 until I7. Great shooting options, 5 legitimate good choices.

Next I will build a list that focuses on his strengths... once I better identify them.

5 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Zachareth  need allies nearby, whether to stun or give Vitality. Later in the game, when heavy casualties ha  d been suffered, there was no one around for him t  o  stun, so his damag   e dropped.  

Yeah I think this is what’s drawing me so much to a spearstar, 9 tray has some staying power to survive into the later rounds, and is a great target for vitality tokens. As long as you can get it in combat and stay in combat, you can give up that modifier dial all game and just crank out init3 attacks.

Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I find the spearstar is just too vulnerable to morale. If it's not flee in terror it's betrayal or uncertainty. You're right though, the synergy is there.

I had walked away from spearstars pretty early on in the game after getting tired of my 70+ point unit getting blighted to oblivion, or getting kited, but I’m willing to give it another shot for this. Agreed panic is the new blight, my idea is to really try and pack in the damage before the panic gets too high. If it does continue to be a problem, could always try a forged in battle/FLG/Lion Standard/Marching Cornicern for the same 77pts.

It’d be a pretty huge change, but with nerekhall training and fortunas dice, there might be a good case for a 2x1 spearmen with rallying cornicen. Good at keeping blight and immobilize off the spear star.

4 hours ago, jcshep19 said:

I had walked away from spearstars pretty early on in the game after getting tired of my 70+ point unit getting blighted to oblivion, or getting kited, but I’m willing to give it another shot for this. Agreed panic is the new blight, my idea is to really try and pack in the damage before the panic gets too high. If it does continue to be a problem, could always try a forged in battle/FLG/Lion Standard/Marching Cornicern for the same 77pts.

I completely agree. I am still running a 12-tray Reanimates unit, but the only reason that works is the Cursed Signets-Regeneration combo. Spearmen can't realistically take Cursed Signets, so you need to find a different workaround. I wish I had more insight, but @Bhelliom 's idea seems to have merit.