Do you guys think we could produce our own unofficial official expansions on which we could all agree that they would be balanced?

I feel like whenever I would suggest to a friend to play with some custom ships they would immediately expect those ships to be unbalanced in my favor and to be honest if I had to come up with a new imperial ship it probably would be unbalanced. Which is why backlash from other players is needed when coming up with new ships.

It would be cool if there was some kind of authority on custom ships that we could point to and say: ”look, they have deemed it balanced”. We would need some robust process to reliably create expansions with proper play testing and data collection with participation from the whole community.

So before we can come to an agreement on what new ships should look like we should agree on the process a ship would have to go through to get the official forum approval.

So my guess is that we should first have a post where people can post ships for either faction they want in the game. After that we open up an election where people can vote on the ship they want most from all the ones that where listed previously. Next we would need a discussion on what exactly that ships roll should be. Should it be a carrier, an ordnance platform, should it be a broadsider or a front arc ship, etc. Once we have that down we need to work out some of the specifics, exact values and firing arcs so that prototypes can be build. And from there we would need to start an iterative process of play testing, data collection, discussion on the forums, making small adjustments on the prototypes and starting the whole thing again until we hone in on a design where everyone can agree that it is fair and balanced.

What do you think of the idea of a community balanced expansion and what do you think this process should look like? Would you be interested in participating?

45 minutes ago, LordCola said:

So  my  guess is that we should first have a post where people can post ships for either faction they want in the game     .

.....

15 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

.....

Yeah, don't be to expressive in your posts. Someone might actually understand what you want to say.

I know that there are already enough posts of people listing the ships they want. What I suggest is that there should be formal place where we aggregate ships in the context of making a custom expansion. So that we have a centralized and orderly collection where every can see what is already in the suggestion pool and nobody needs to double post their favorite ship or hope that someone finds their favorite ship buried somewhere deep in the forums. I mean, do you want to go through all previous post searching for every ship anyone has ever suggested? I don't. I would rather have people list the ships themselves.

If that is even what you are actually getting at. Who knows?!

1 minute ago, LordCola said:

Yeah, don't be to expressive in your posts. Someone might actually understand what you want to say.

I know that there are already enough posts of people listing the ships they want. What I suggest is that there should be formal place where we aggregate ships in the context of making a custom expansion. So that we have a centralized and orderly collection where every can see what is already in the suggestion pool and nobody needs to double post their favorite ship or hope that someone finds their favorite ship buried somewhere deep in the forums.

If that is even what you are actually getting at. Who knows?!

I couldn't think of something funny to say, so I left it up to interpretation.

Did it work? ?

There was a previous effort to attempt to get people to agree on current interpretations of the existing rules at one stage... A... " rules committee".

It wasn't my idea, but I was named as a person to be on said committee as a potential, and I can show you some of the vitriol I was handed for the possibility... In essence, it was a case of "How DARE you deign to tell me how to play my Game!"

... So regrettably, I'm dubious that your efforts will get anywhere... People won't even agree on the important stuff, or even, basically, that the stuff I believe in (ie: the Rules), are even important in the first place...

... Also, setting up a coordinated effort like this feels like Signalling that We've given up hope . That the game is dead, and we're on to Community Edition.

And perhaps, most importantly:

While FFG is still, at least potentially, developing things for Armada, coming up with ideas in the Open Domain, and presenting them to the public, is the quickest and best way for those ideas to never be incorporated officially into the game . For legal reasons, FFG cannot and will not accept unrequested games design information, because, basically, they can't claim to own it. They can't copyright it, etc. Only things developed under their NDA and expressly stated as being theirs is... theirs... because that's the point of it.

And I don't want to see good ideas wasted in the meantime, when they could... Y'know... Actually make it Official-official one day...

... Now, when the game is dead, I'll be on board for the community edition - I've already got a draft Rules package prepared that I keep updating as required, but essentially, its not Public Domain because it'd be arrogant and forward of me to present it while FFG is still working on and developing Armada .

But, I mean, in the end, don't let me stop you... I'm a bitter, jaded old fool... I just... want you to be prepared for the kind of pushback you may get. The kind of pushback *I* got in the past for even being tangentially affiliated with a potential project like that.

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

While  FFG is still, at least potentially, developing things for Armada, coming up with ideas in the Open Domain, and presenting them to the public, is the quickest and best way for those ideas to never be incorporated officially into the game . For legal reasons, FFG cannot and will not accept unrequested games design  information, because, basically, they can't claim to own it. They can't copyright it, etc. Only things developed under their NDA and expressly stated as being theirs is... theirs... because that's the point of  it. 

Why couldn't they use our ideas though? We do not possess the Star Wars game license, so how could anyone legally challenge FFG for ship and upgrade designs?

Besides I would be ecstatic if FFG actually said one of my ideas was good and used parts of it.

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

It wasn't my idea, but I was named as a person to be on said committee as a potential, and I can show you some of the vitriol I was handed for the possibility... In essence, it was a case of "How DARE you deign to tell me how to play my Game!"

Well that is unfortunate. This is, I am afraid, not a project that a single person can speer head. The majority of the community would need to be behind that and if that already didn't work for rules then I won't have high hopes that it would work for ships.

7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Also, setting up a coordinated effort like this feels like Signalling that We've given up hope . That the game is dead, and we're on to Community Edition.

Yeah I also thought of that. Though to me this idea just stems from an impatiens for more content instead of believing that the game is actually dead. And also I thought this would be a great way to get ships FFG would never give us. Like new ships from Legends. Which also plays into your point of not officially getting the ships designed by us.

1 minute ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Why couldn't they use our ideas though? We do not possess the Star Wars game license, so how could anyone legally challenge FFG for ship and upgrade designs?

Besides I would be ecstatic if FFG actually said one of my ideas was good and used parts of it.

Its the game design information. Sure, you're presenting it within their existing framework, but its your idea , your wording ...

I don't know the exact legality of it. I've just been told (by FFG) that it is FFG's current stance on the matter.

They can not and will not accept unsolicited games design information in any format.

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Its the game design information. Sure, you're presenting it within their existing framework, but its your idea , your wording ...

I don't know the exact legality of it. I've just been told (by FFG) that it is FFG's current stance on the matter.

They can not and will not accept unsolicited games design information in any format.

So that means we have to burn down Kuat Drive Yards to the ground before it's too late?

DOES THAT MEAN THAT THERE WILL NEVER BE A VENATOR-CLASS STAR DESTROYER?!?

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

I've just been told (by FFG) that it is FFG's current stance on the matter.    

WOW WOW WOW, wait a second. FFG actually communicated with someone ?

I thought that they would just decent every half a year from the heavens to bring us a new expansion only to then seclude themselves back in their development dungeon again.

4 minutes ago, LordCola said:

WOW WOW WOW, wait a second. FFG actually communicated with someone ?

I thought that they would just decent every half a year from the heavens to bring us a new expansion only to then seclude themselves back in their development dungeon again.

To be fair, and to combat Hyperbole a little:

Have you actually ever communicated with FFG through their own consumer and customer feedback channels?

I mean... Communicated with them in an official capacity that way?

Not just shouted at them on Social Media or dropped lines in the forums or anything like that....

Actually used their communications links?

SO FEW PEOPLE EVEN REALISE THAT ACTUALLY EXISTS AS A "THING"

I used to, on nearly a daily basis... Back when I was actually actively hunting rules queries and questions, as well as other bits and pieces...

I'm also in contact with them as a TO, giving feedback and event reports and such.

They almost always reply.

Just in the case of rules, it can take upwards of 9 Months on certain subjects

11 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

To be fair, and to combat Hyperbole a little:

Have you actually ever communicated with FFG through their own consumer and customer feedback channels?

I mean... Communicated with them in an official capacity that way?

Not just shouted at them on Social Media or dropped lines in the forums or anything like that....

Actually used their communications links?

SO FEW PEOPLE EVEN REALISE THAT ACTUALLY EXISTS AS A "THING"

I used to, on nearly a daily basis... Back when I was actually actively hunting rules queries and questions, as well as other bits and pieces...

I'm also in contact with them as a TO, giving feedback and event reports and such.

They almost always reply.

Just in the case of rules, it can take upwards of 9 Months on certain subjects

DID FANS RUIN THE CHANCE FOR VENATORS IN ARMADA?

2 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

DID FANS RUIN THE CHANCE FOR VENATORS IN ARMADA?

I don't know.

I don't work for FFG.

...

You think I'd be talking to you like this if I did ?

Just now, Drasnighta said:

I don't know.

I don't work for FFG.

...

You think I'd be talking to you like this if I did ?

I'm suffering from mild anxiety right now man.

If FFG doesn't use fan ideas in any capacity then #teamvenator is in real trouble...

Just now, Piratical Moustache said:

I'm suffering from mild anxiety right now man.

If FFG doesn't use fan ideas in any capacity then #teamvenator is in real trouble...

In my personal opinion:

The fact that fans have drawn up Venators isn't a barrier to Venators being in Armada.

... But FFG would be exceptionally reluctant to use any of those specific formatted ones unless they had their own back-end proof they were working on the concept long before it was presented publicly, thus showing they independantly developed the idea... if that makes sense... i think?

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

In my personal opinion:

The fact that fans have drawn up Venators isn't a barrier to Venators being in Armada.

... But FFG would be exceptionally reluctant to use any of those specific formatted ones unless they had their own back-end proof they were working on the concept long before it was presented publicly, thus showing they independantly developed the idea... if that makes sense... i think?

From a legal perspective in the US, this is nonsense. Game design, that is, rules, statistics, and mechanisms, cannot be protected by copyright and even if FFG took someone’s exact venator and printed it as-is that designer would have no basis for a legal challenge.

Just now, OlaphOfTheNorth said:

From a legal perspective in the US, this is nonsense. Game design, that is, rules, statistics, and mechanisms, cannot be protected by copyright and even if FFG took someone’s exact venator and printed it as-is that designer would have no basis for a legal challenge.

As I said, I'm not sure on the legalities of it.

I'm just passing on what FFG told me ... It might just be something they do out of the principle of the matter, maybe?

You CAN copyright setting specific information like the word ‘venator,’ but in this case that copyright exists and resides with Disney, who have liscensed FFG to use it

2 hours ago, LordCola said:

Do you guys think "Nerds" [...] "agree" [...] "balance"

LOL no way

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

As I said, I'm not sure on the legalities of it.

I'm just passing on what FFG told me ... It might just be something they do out of the principle of the matter, maybe?

I think “we don’t accept unsolicited designs” is a useful phrase for anyone trying to run a business with a large fanbase; there’s nothing restricting them from doing it besides the fact that it’s easier and faster to develop in house than it is to pick through KDY looking for ideas that have merit.

There’s nothing to suggest they’ll never print an ability if a fan sent it to them in your posts so far- I think you interpreted “we don’t print things as a result of people sending them in” to mean “if you send something in that guarantees it will never see print” when those are different assertions

3 minutes ago, OlaphOfTheNorth said:

I think “we don’t accept unsolicited designs” is a useful phrase for anyone trying to run a business with a large fanbase; there’s nothing restricting them from doing it besides the fact that it’s easier and faster to develop in house than it is to pick through KDY looking for ideas that have merit.

There’s nothing to suggest they’ll never print an ability if a fan sent it to them in your posts so far- I think you interpreted “we don’t print things as a result of people sending them in” to mean “if you send something in that guarantees it will never see print” when those are different assertions

Unfortunately, Its not my interpretation. Its my semi-quote of what I got as a response...

There's 2 things here...

Their contact page states they do not accept unsolicited designs. Which, totally. As you say.

BUT When I asked about that, I was responded to with the explanation of what they seemingly mean by that... "You won't see it unless we can basically prove we came up with the idea."

Of course, this was... a few years ago, and the person who responded to me doesn't work in the Armada Design anymore... So, maybe I'm wrong. But that was the official communication I got.

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Unfortunately, Its not my interpretation. Its my semi-quote of what I got as a response...

There's 2 things here...

Their contact page states they do not accept unsolicited designs. Which, totally. As you say.

BUT When I asked about that, I was responded to with the explanation of what they seemingly mean by that... "You won't see it unless we can basically prove we came up with the idea."

Of course, this was... a few years ago, and the person who responded to me doesn't work in the Armada Design anymore... So, maybe I'm wrong. But that was the official communication I got.

Well, fair enough, all I really came here to do was reassure @Piratical Moustache that a Venator will or will not happen in the game based on what the dev team wants to do coupled with what the company is able to get approved and funded and that KDY and other fan content in threads here will almost certainly play no part in those discussions.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Unfortunately, Its not my interpretation. Its my semi-quote of what I got as a response...

There's 2 things here...

Their contact page states they do not accept unsolicited designs. Which, totally. As you say.

BUT When I asked about that, I was responded to with the explanation of what they seemingly mean by that... "You won't see it unless we can basically prove we came up with the idea."

Of course, this was... a few years ago, and the person who responded to me doesn't work in the Armada Design anymore... So, maybe I'm wrong. But that was the official communication I got.

It makes sense. Even if the copyright claim cannot be legally enforced, it much easier for FFG to not open the can of worm and expose itself to legal fees if someone decided to claim copyright. It's a hassle they can probably live without.

24 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I'm suffering from mild anxiety right now man.

If FFG doesn't use fan ideas in any capacity then #teamvenator is in real trouble...

Yeah, you can kiss the Venator goodbye. You've ruined it, man. (I'm kidding).

3 hours ago, Piratical Moustache said:

DID FANS RUIN THE CHANCE FOR VENATORS IN ARMADA?

That case ssd wouldnt be released. You cannot tell whats on their radar ands whats not. What you can be sure about is, there wont be an exact copy of an idea thats been posted, so you wont be able to say, 'hey, you stole my idea, Im sueing!'

1 hour ago, Coldhands said:

That case ssd wouldnt be released. You cannot tell whats on their radar ands whats not. What you can be sure about is, there wont be an exact copy of an idea thats been posted, so you wont be able to say, 'hey, you stole my idea, Im sueing!'

Indeed. There are loads of SSD designs on KDY, with no repercussions. I honestly don’t see how online fan ideas could ever challenge a liscensed design, short of flat out admitting they knicked the design-and even then...

As a side note, Star Trek was the only show with an open door script policy from fans, and they used a couple i believe. I’m assuming you would have to sign away all rights but the precedent exists. But for the most part, no outside ideas seems to be the norm.