@Parakitor Could this be what we ve been looking for; under page 4 of the rules reference.

Firing Arcs
A ship’s firing arcs include all shaded arcs on the ship’s ship token plus all
? arcs, if any.

Cloud this mean that the shaded arc on the ships base is considered range 0 inside the arc for that ship?
I understand that an object "under" the base is not in arc, but that does not cover the base itself.

57 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

@Parakitor Could this be what we ve been looking for; under page 4 of the rules reference.

Firing Arcs
A ship’s firing arcs include all shaded arcs on the ship’s ship token plus all
? arcs, if any.

Cloud this mean that the shaded arc on the ships base is considered range 0 inside the arc for that ship?
I understand that an object "under" the base is not in arc, but that does not cover the base itself.

Read the entire first bullet point for arcs on page 3. Not skim, read...

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Read the entire first bullet point for arcs on page 3. Not skim, read...

Cant really see what skim reading has to do with this. Try to understand what people argue about before posting and don't skip read to the last post.

1 hour ago, tsondaboy said:

Quite the opposite, another friendly ship at range 0 in your arc has been clearly defined by the rules. What we don't have a definition for in the rules is about a friendly ship at range 0 in your arc.
If we go by your thinking and accept that her ability describes the types of ships you can effect, "friendly ships" includes you. So we need an instance that her ability can be triggered by you, i.e. her own ship. The only instance I can imagine that can be triggered by you, is if she is inside her own arc at range 0. Adding "another" before friendly ship is what would have actually made everything remarkably clear by RAW.

And I am not saying that she can use her ability, only that her ability wording is ambiguous because it includes you.

Definitions
~Friendly Ship = all ships belong to the player of this ship
~Range 0 = you (the ship) or any ship that you (the ship) is touching.
~In Arc = Between your firing arc lines (all of them unless defined separately) at range 0-3 you are not in your own arc.

You are not in your own so by definition you are excluded. There is no reason to add extraneous words. Adding "another friendly ship" would create confusing wording that suggests at some times you are in your own arc, which you can never be.

This is remarkably clear by RAW. It couldn't be more clear.

23 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:

~In Arc = Between your firing arc lines (all of them unless defined separately) at range 0-3 you are not in your own arc.

Point me to the rules section that clearly states that you are not in your arc at range 0 and I rest my case.
Her ability as written already suggests what you ve dismissed without providing any justification.

page 11 of the rules reference
• A ship is friendly to itself and can affect itself with any of its abilities that affect
friendly ships, unless those abilities explicitly refer to “other” friendly ships.

And lets not even open another can of worms, which is if checking for arc for an ability is the same as checking for arc for an attack.

9 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

Point me to the rules section that clearly states that you are not in your arc at range 0 and I rest my case.
Her ability as written already suggests what you ve dismissed without providing any justification.

And lets not even open another can of worms, which is if checking for arc for an ability is the same as checking for arc for an attack.

You're funny, I did. Here is an online link since you decide to not take the time to look at the section I outlined. (RR, Pg.3, Arcs, First Bullet point): http://infinitearenas.com/xw2rules/index.php?page=arc

Or to more directly quote from the Rules Reference (Copied, pasted, underlined an bolded for your ease of reference.):

ARC
An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks
or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3. A ship is in an arc if any part
of its base is inside that area.
• Arcs are measured beyond the base of ships. The portion of any object
that lies beneath a ship is not in any of those ship’s arcs.

Like I said. It looks like you skimmed the section.

And again you seem you don't understand what I am arguing about and skipped to the last post.

What I am not arguing is how you measure range for arc.

What I am arguing is that her ability is ambiguously written because by the way "friendly" is defined in the game there is no possible way to trigger for herself unless "you" can be within range 0 inside the arc of "you".

page 11 of the rules reference
• A ship is friendly to itself and can affect itself with any of its abilities that affect
friendly ships, unless those abilities explicitly refer to “other” friendly ships.

Let me rephrase my argument because it seems that adding range is a source of confusion.

What I am arguing is that her ability is ambiguously written because by the way "friendly" is defined in the game there is no possible way to trigger for herself unless "you" can be inside the arc of "you".
Range 0 is not a requirement by her ability, but is only implied for obvious reasons I assume.

3 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

And again you seem you don't understand what I am arguing about.

What I am not arguing is how you measure range for arc.

What I am arguing is that her ability is ambiguously written because by the way "friendly" is defined in the game there is no possible way to trigger for herself unless "you" can be within range 0 "you".

But she can't trigger for herself. It's not ambiguous at all.

Jan Ors
" While a friendly ship in your firing arc performs a primary attack, if you are not stressed, you may gain 1 stress token. If you do, that ship may roll 1 additional attack die."

Arc (page 3 Rules Reference)
An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3. A ship is in an arc if any part of its base is inside that area.
• Arcs are measured beyond the base of ships. The portion of any object that lies beneath a ship is not in any of those ship’s arcs.

You cannot be in your own arc.

And because this is what you are arguing

Friendly (page 11 Rules Reference
All ships/devices controlled by the same player are friendly to each other. Any dice rolled by that player are friendly to those ships. This is in contrast with enemy.
• Ships cannot perform attacks against friendly ships, unless specified otherwise.
• A ship is friendly to itself and can affect itself with any of its abilities that affect friendly ships, unless those abilities explicitly refer to “other” friendly ships.

So yes, they could have said "other" but it's unnecessary as you can never be in your own arc.
Reading her ability - friendly ship (all of the Jan Ors player's ships) in your firing arc (only those friendly ships inside Jan Ors' firing arc). This excludes Jan Ors from being affected by her ability in exactly the same way that it excludes any friendly ship that isn't in her firing arc.

1 hour ago, DodgingArcs said:

So yes, they could have said "other" but it's unnecessary as you can never be in your own arc.
Reading her ability - friendly ship (all of the Jan Ors player's ships) in your firing arc (only those friendly ships inside Jan Ors' firing arc). This excludes Jan Ors from being affected by her ability in exactly the same way that it excludes any friendly ship that isn't in her firing arc.

Agreed!

Now like I said in the post to @Parakitor above is there a window left open, by the way firing arcs are defined in page 4 of the rules, to consider a ship within its own arc?
Keep in mind, you are not asked to check for range by her ability, which created the confusion above, but rather to be in arc.

I mean this part:

A ship's FIRING ARCS include all shaded arcs on the ship's ship token plus all {turret arc} arcs, if any.

Which in combination to the Arc definition in page 3:

An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3. A ship is IN an arc if any part of its base is inside that area.
• Arcs are measured beyond the base of ships. The portion of any object that lies beneath a ship is not in any of those ship’s arcs.

Since the shaded area on a ships base is included in your firing arc, does that make by definition the base of the ship inside its own arc, but any object under the base outside it?
Is that a possible interpretation?

4 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

Agreed!

Now like I said in the post to @Parakitor above is there a window left open, by the way firing arcs are defined in page 4 of the rules, to consider a ship within its own arc?
Keep in mind, you are not asked to check for range by her ability, which created the confusion above, but rather to be in arc.

I mean this part:

A ship's FIRING ARCS include all shaded arcs on the ship's ship token plus all {turret arc} arcs, if any.

Which in combination to the Arc definition in page 3:

An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3. A ship is IN an arc if any part of its base is inside that area.
• Arcs are measured beyond the base of ships. The portion of any object that lies beneath a ship is not in any of those ship’s arcs.

Makes by definition the base of the ship inside its own arc, but any object under the base outside it.
Is that a possible interpretation?

No. Not at all. An arc only exists outside of the base of that ship. A ship can never be inside it's own arc. There is no window left open to include this at a later date unless they change it which I don't believe they would.

5 hours ago, tsondaboy said:

Since the shaded area on a ships base is included in your firing arc, does that make by definition the base of the ship inside its own arc, but any object under the base outside it?
Is that a possible interpretation?

No.

The shaded area of the base is not included in the firing arc. That is not what this:

" A ship's FIRING ARCS include all shaded arcs on the ship's ship token plus all {turret arc} arcs, if any."

means.

That sentence is just defining what represents a firing arc on that ship. That is just saying that an X-Wing's firing arcs only include the forward arc, because that is the only one shaded and it does not have a mobile arc. However, on a Firespray its arcs include the forward and rear arcs, because both of those are shaded. That's all that sentence is saying. It's telling you how to recognise what arcs a ship has available to shoot out of. It is not defining what an arc is, or consists of.

There's no contradiction here.

The rule that says the area of effect for the arcs themselves (whether for abilities or weapons) extends only from beyond the base could not be clearer. A ship is not and cannot be in its own arc.

Cool, so a ship can still be at range 0 of it self for abilities that do not have arc requirement but not for abilities that would include arc requirement.

1 hour ago, tsondaboy said:

Cool, so a ship can still be at range 0 of it self for abilities that do not have arc requirement but not for abilities that would include arc requirement.

Basically just read all requirements. If you meet them all then the ability can work on that ship, otherwise no.

In the case of Jan Ors - friendly yes, in arc no. Howlrunner - friendly yes, range 0-1 yes.

you guys arguing the R0 thing do realize that the "you are always at R0 of yourself" is an exception to how you determine range right?

Its everything beyond your base in arc, touching is R0 and not touching is R1-3 and yourself always at R0 .
There doesnt need to be any proper wording, its a special case where it ignores the usual method.

Only on the x-wing forums would you see people arguing that you should count for being inside your own firing arc.

5 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Only on the x-wing forums would you see people arguing that you should count for being inside your own firing arc.

On 9/5/2018 at 10:05 PM, drail14me said:

Any reason why Maj Rhymer can’t shoot missiles at Range 0?

There's just no Rhymer reason for it. ?

I can't believe I'm the first person to do that. You've all let me down.