Any reason why Maj Rhymer can’t shoot missiles at Range 0?

9 minutes ago, drail14me said:

Any reason why Maj Rhymer can’t shoot missiles at Range 0?

If the missile's base range is 2-3 then they can only improve it to 1-3. If the base range of the missile is 1-2 or 1-3 then it becomes 0-3. Aside from that as long as Rhymer meets the other requirements for firing the missile (having a lock on the target or a focus depending on the missile) then he is able to from what I can find.

32 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

If the missile's base range is 2-3 then they can only improve it to 1-3. If the base range of the missile is 1-2 or 1-3 then it becomes 0-3. Aside from that as long as Rhymer meets the other requirements for firing the missile (having a lock on the target or a focus depending on the missile) then he is able to from what I can find.

So far, I’ve not found any reason he can’t. That’s pretty powerful. Had it happen twice in a game tonight. Wrecked havoc!

34 minutes ago, drail14me said:

So far, I’ve not found any reason he can’t. That’s pretty powerful. Had it happen twice in a game tonight. Wrecked havoc!

Might be interesting with Proton rockets since his ability allows range 0-3 on them and they only req a focus which he can be fed or coordinated into depending on your squad setup.

Rhymer with Barrage Rockets (because you can't ever guarantee TLs) and Advanced Proton Torp backup (usable at range 0-2)

Jendon provides the lock

Is there any upgrade card in 2.0 that allows you to go around the targeting restrictions on page 8 and 13 of the rule book?

With the exception of Arvel Crynyd, that is only primary anyway, I am not aware of any other ship in the game that can perform attacks at range 0.
Zeb crew is also primary and not available to the Empire either.
Major Rhymers ability is rater misleading. It allows you to change the firing range of a missile, but it does not allow you to declare as your target a ship at range 0.
Until we get an upgrade card that allows you to declare as your target a ship at range 0, you cannot go around the restrictions set on page 8 of the rule book.

22 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

Is there any upgrade card in 2.0 that allows you to go around the targeting restrictions on page 8 and 13 of the rule book?

With the exception of Arvel Crynyd, that is only primary anyway, I am not aware of any other ship in the game that can perform attacks at range 0.
Zeb crew is also primary and not available to the Empire either.
Major Rhymers ability is rater misleading. It allows you to change the firing range of a missile, but it does not allow you to declare as your target a ship at range 0.
Until we get an upgrade card that allows you to declare as your target a ship at range 0, you cannot go around the restrictions set on page 8 of the rule book.

Oicunn is also range 0 shooting.

Note Primary Weapons are range 1-3, which Oicunn, Zeb and Arvil all change.

It’s pretty clear on page 4 of the rules reference that as long as your weapon can shoot range 0 and you meet all other requirements of firing that weapon then you can shoot at range 0.

Now if only Rhymer was in a Punisher.

Oicunn too, sorry missed the entry in the rules reference that probably overrides the rule book.

First step of major Busta Rhymers is to perform an attack.

Rules specified

a) choose a target ( 1-3, in arc)

b) choose a weapon

Etc...

I am not 100% sure, but I think it is a no no for R0 attack for the major.

1 hour ago, player2422845 said:

First step of major Busta Rhymers is to perform an attack.

Rules specified

a) choose a target ( 1-3, in arc)

b) choose a weapon

Etc...

I am not 100% sure, but I think it is a no no for R0 attack for the major.

Go and read the rules reference for Attacks (pg 4).

"If a ship performs an attack, it becomes the attacker then follows these steps:

1. Declare Target: During this step, the attacking player identifies and names the defender of the attack.

a. Measure Range: The attacking player measures range from the attacker to any number of enemy ships and determines which enemy ships are in which of its arcs.

b. Choose Weapon: The attacking player chooses one of the attacker’s primary or special weapons.

c. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses an enemy ship to be the defender. The defender must meet the requirements defined by the weapon.

d. Pay Costs: The attacker must pay any costs for performing the attack."

Additionally:

"A primary weapon requires the attack range to be range 1–3 . A primary weapon has no cost by default.

• Special weapons have different requirements specified by the source of the attack"

I've bolded the key parts

Most important thing here is obviously that, from the outset, you had things the wrong way round. Choosing the weapon happens before declaring the defender.

Look at the wording for Measure Range and Declare Defender. There is no hard rule that the defender must be at range 1 for them to be declared as defender. There is no rule that you cannot measure range to a target at range 0.

Primary attacks are strictly limited to range 1-3, unless specifically overridden by a card effect of course (Arvel, Zeb)

Special attacks, including missiles and torps do not have any hard ruled range requirements. The only range requirement for their use is what's printed on each of their cards.

Rhymer changes the values on these cards, and increases or decreases them by 1. He decreases the range of any ordnance that can fire at range 1 to range 0.

There are no rules that prevent him firing a special weapon at range 0.

This honestly couldn't be clearer. People really need to actually read the rules reference.

Yup. Nothing indicates that all attacks must be 1-3 unless specified otherwise, just that the primary attack is 1-3 unless specified otherwise, and you can measure range and arc to everything before choosing a target as for 1e.

Cluster Missiles for Rhymer can hit at all ranges including 0 which is nice, though Barrage Rockets have more charges and only a focus requirement, so there's a strong argument for them too.

15 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

A  primary weapon requires the attack range  to be range 1–3 . A primary weapon has no cost by default.

• Special weapons have different requirements specified by the source of the attack" 

This is the part I misunderstood.

So OK.

R0 is a defined range, it is not included with R1

That is how 2.0 is denying shots if you are bumping. All weapons are R1 minimum unless an ability or crew says otherwise.

Rhymer isnt even a question because his ability specifically says TO A LIMIT OF 0-3

So clearly he can reduce a shot to R0, and absolutely nothing in the rules for 2.0 says you cant attack at R0 at all - just none of the attacks allow it normally.

4 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

So clearly he can reduce a shot to R0, and absolutely nothing in the rules for 2.0 says you cant attack at R0 at all - just none of the attacks allow it normally.

This is one of my favorite rules changes in 2e. There is no rule at all against Range 0 attacks. None. However, there is no weapon currently printed which has a range 0 (as has been noted, Primary is range 1-3 by default).

Rhymer is one of a handfull of pilots who can perform attacks at that range, under certain circumstances.

It also opens up the possibility for future weapons which just have a printed range of 0. Suppose some sort of Cannon with a range 0-1. There's some really cool design space there.

A relative question, is a ship at range 0 of its own arc too?
Jan Ors pilot ability in 2.0 covers herself too?

Isnt a ship always at range 0 of itself?

55 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

A relative question, is a ship at range 0 of its own arc too?
Jan Ors pilot ability in 2.0 covers herself too?

That is a really interesting question.

" An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3.

• Arcs are measured beyond the base of ships. The portion of any object that lies beneath a ship is not in any of those ship's arcs."

So it looks like Jan is not inside her own firing arc.

No, ships are not in their own arcs in 2e.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

This is one of my favorite rules changes in 2e. There is no rule at all against Range 0 attacks. None. However, there is no weapon currently printed which has a range 0 (as has been noted, Primary is range 1-3 by default).

Rhymer is one of a handfull of pilots who can perform attacks at that range, under certain circumstances.

It also opens up the possibility for future weapons which just have a printed range of 0. Suppose some sort of Cannon with a range 0-1. There's some really cool design space there.

I really want to see a cheap high powered cannon that attacks all ships at range 0 of the attacker. ALL.

Then run a swarm of Scyks with them.

37 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

That is a really interesting question.

" An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3.

• Arcs are measured beyond the base of ships. The portion of any object that lies beneath a ship is not in any of those ship's arcs."

So it looks like Jan is not inside her own firing arc.

That seems..... satisfyingly simple?

So, range 0 includes yourself.... but in your arc at range 0, does not.

I think I like this range 0 business. It's a move away from the a/another/etc ship word jumble isn't it?

A range 0 cannon would be all sorts of awesome. I've such a longing for Arc Caster to be actually really good. I'm imagining a love child of that and Anti-Pursuit Lasers.

Edit. I'd certainly stick one straight on Adv Sensors Ryad, without even pausing for thought.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

This is one of my favorite rules changes in 2e. There is no rule at all against Range 0 attacks. None. However, there is no weapon currently printed which has a range 0 (as has been noted, Primary is range 1-3 by default).

Rhymer is one of a handfull of pilots who can perform attacks at that range, under certain circumstances.

It also opens up the possibility for future weapons which just have a printed range of 0. Suppose some sort of Cannon with a range 0-1. There's some really cool design space there.

Hotshot Blaster comes to mind. Unless i missed it its not in 2.0 right now, it could easily be 0-1 since its a 1shot attack anyway (potentially 2 with the whole charge thing)

8 hours ago, Parakitor said:

That is a really interesting question.

" An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3.

• Arcs are measured beyond the base of ships. The portion of any object that lies beneath a ship is not in any of those ship's arcs."

So it looks like Jan is not inside her own firing arc.

I know right, what makes things more confusing with her ability is that they use the wording "a friendly ship" which in other abilities they usually use to include you. It would be far less confusing if her ability said "another friendly ship"that excludes you. I don't understand why they used this wording if they were not planing to include you in her ability.

7 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

I know right, what makes things more confusing with her ability is that they use the wording "a friendly ship" which in other abilities they usually use to include you. It would be far less confusing if her ability said "another friendly ship"that excludes you. I don't understand why they used this wording if they were not planing to include you in her ability.

I completely agree. Adding the word "another" would have made her ability immediately clear.

10 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

This is one of my favorite rules changes in 2e. There is no rule at all against Range 0 attacks. None. However, there is no weapon currently printed which has a range 0 (as has been noted, Primary is range 1-3 by default).

Rhymer is one of a handfull of pilots who can perform attacks at that range, under certain circumstances.

It also opens up the possibility for future weapons which just have a printed range of 0. Suppose some sort of Cannon with a range 0-1. There's some really cool design space there.

Jamming Beam could have been interesting/useful if it could be fired at range 0.

17 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

I know right, what makes things more confusing with her ability is that they use the wording "a friendly ship" which in other abilities they usually use to include you. It would be far less confusing if her ability said "another friendly ship"that excludes you. I don't understand why they used this wording if they were not planing to include you in her ability.

But that is unnecessary wording. R0 is you and anything you are touching. In arc is anything in any of your arcs - you are not in your arc and the idea that you could be is quite unintuitive.

So her ability is exactly what it needs to be. It defines the area you can affect and the types of ships that you can affect. Saying “another” friendly ship would actually add to “in arc” confusion not remove it.

It seems remarkably clear.

1 hour ago, DodgingArcs said:

So her ability is exactly what it needs to be. It defines the area you can affect and the types of ships that you can affect. Saying “another” friendly ship would actually add to “in arc” confusion not remove it.

Quite the opposite, another friendly ship at range 0 in your arc has been clearly defined by the rules. What we don't have a definition for in the rules is about a friendly ship at range 0 in your arc.
If we go by your thinking and accept that her ability describes the types of ships you can effect, "friendly ships" includes you. So we need an instance that her ability can be triggered by you, i.e. her own ship. The only instance I can imagine that can be triggered by you, is if she is inside her own arc at range 0. Adding "another" before friendly ship is what would have actually made everything remarkably clear by RAW.

And I am not saying that she can use her ability, only that her ability wording is ambiguous because it includes you.