Armada is balanced in a large picture. Internal balance is a bit wacked.

There exist several squadrons that never sees play and feels overcosted or poorly designed. Han solo for example, rouge gets overshadowed by his ability and such high cost for a non scatter cost makes him hard to field.

Some ships pretty much work thanks to a single title. Demolisher, yavaris for example.

I have some gripes with the general rules in armada like the importance of initiative, I far prefer the system in legion.

Lastly with the latest expansion I find that they pointfortress problem have come to armada. Isd or mc80 with reinforced blast doors, brunson/lando and spamming enginering commands can hold over 200 points locked away. I find msu have big problems with this since you get 0 points if that ship stands on 1-2 hp at the end of round six. The activation advantage is no longer there thanks to strategic advisor and pryce.

Armada is pretty well balanced. I'd give it an 8/10. Squads and the activation mechanic needs some tweaks but that's a artifact of wave 1/2. Flotillas and SA really messed with activations, and flotillas and CC made squads crazy good. Overall, the best players can take whatever they want and do pretty well with it and I think that indicates the game is balanced. This isn't MTG where the meta is 4-5 decks and the best players win because they drew the clutch card at the correct time.

In regards to building fleets, the meta changes with each wave so that pushes all fleets toward certain archetypes. Wave 5 was squads. Wave 6 was squads, Vics, and MSU. Wave 7 is large ships. I think if the meta can shift that much with each wave the game is fairly well balanced because the strong fleets from previous waves can't stand up against the new content. Normally I don't think Armada has much power creep but wave 7 is definitely a jump. Both ships are amazing and come with great upgrades and not owning them means you're at a disadvantage.

I think a lot of the unbalance in Armada stems from upgrades with the wrong point cost or useless abilities. PDR is one of the worst upgrades in the game because it's ability is niche. Needs to be on a ship with blue anti-squad and attacking at close range. Plus it's 5 points. I'm not saying Armada is unblanaced because of PDR, but rather PDR is a useless card and FFG could have released something actually worth taking. A smaller viable upgrade pool makes things feel the same and I bet that's where a lot of people think the game needs a new edition.

16 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

I have some gripes with the general rules in armada like the importance of initiative, I far prefer the system in legion

I'm curious - how does it work in Legion?

Quote

Lastly with the latest expansion I find that they pointfortress problem have come to armada. Isd or mc80 with reinforced blast doors, brunson/lando and spamming enginering commands can hold over 200 points locked away. I find msu have big problems with this since you get 0 points if that ship stands on 1-2 hp at the end of round six. The activation advantage is no longer there thanks to strategic advisor and pryce.

Agree!

9 minutes ago, Zamalekite said:

I'm curious - how does it work in Legion?

Each player has a hand of 7 one-use command cards 2x Initiative 1,2 and 3, 1x initiative 4. At the start of a round, each player selects a card, lower initiative goes first, ties resolved by dice roll.

It's an amazing system and means that if you really need to activate first, you can (and you can plan your usage of Command cards accordingly)

There definitely needs to be some cards recosted so they see some action. I rarely see a list with Vader fighter squadron. And he’s far from the best squadron in the game, which he arguably should be given his experience, natural skills & force abilities.

A few titles could do with some help- a couple of the VSD for example.

45 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Let me be clear. I mean two activation, not two ship.

Also, I do know that double ISDs have seen some success. Where are the double MC80, double MC75, or MC75+MC80 builds finding success? A single list archetype based around the best ship in the game (debatably, admittedly) providing an exception to an issue doesn’t stop the core of the issue.

Ahh, this is easier:

2 Activations

37 minutes ago, ISD Avenger said:

There definitely needs to be some cards recosted so they see some action. I rarely see a list with Vader fighter squadron. And he’s far from the best squadron in the game, which he arguably should be given his experience, natural skills & force abilities.

A few titles could do with some help- a couple of the VSD for example.

While I don't want to bash FFG, they follow a process that has become common, and that I really don't like. They only fix things that needs to be nerfed, and they do it through Erratas.

They power up content by creating newer version of the same thing, with improved ability / adapted cost. The ISD variants being an example of how they did it succesfully. They fixed the VSD through Jerry & Disposable Capacitors, with less success, but somewhat nicely anyway.

So I'm not sure we'll ever see an upgraded version of an existing card.

That reminds my of my suggestion from my first post. I was hoping for that kind of things, back then

14 minutes ago, CptAwesomer said:

Each player has a hand of 7 one-use command cards 2x Initiative 1,2 and 3, 1x initiative 4. At the start of a round, each player selects a card, lower initiative goes first, ties resolved by dice roll.

It's an amazing system and means that if you really need to activate first, you can (and you can plan your usage of Command cards accordingly)

Sorry, but no. The system of Legion is (in my opinion) worse than Armada.
There is no way to make sure you are first. I had it more than once. Stupid Luke and his Son of Skywalker. A pure random roll who is first. Both pick their 1 pip card and you have to roll.
In Armada you KNOW at least if you are first or second, and the mission should reflect this. The missions in Legion are way to bad, way to unit focused, and do not give a bonus to second (just because there is no real second player).

Second worst part: Even worse than armda, activations count. If you have more, you have a bonus. And even bigger than in Armada.

All this was without Han and the Commandos. No idea if they changed anything for it.

5 minutes ago, Tokra said:

Sorry, but no. The system of Legion is (in my opinion) worse than Armada.
There is no way to make sure you are first. I had it more than once. Stupid Luke and his Son of Skywalker. A pure random roll who is first. Both pick their 1 pip card and you have to roll.
In Armada you KNOW at least if you are first or second, and the mission should reflect this. The missions in Legion are way to bad, way to unit focused, and do not give a bonus to second (just because there is no real second player).

Second worst part: Even worse than armda, activations count. If you have more, you have a bonus. And even bigger than in Armada.

All this was without Han and the Commandos. No idea if they changed anything for it.

I knew while writing it that someone would bring up the fact that there is no absolute guarantee that you'll be first

Legion definitely has its problems, but I disagree that the way it handles initiative is one of them. With that said, I don't have a ton of experience with Legion, so maybe I just haven't played it enough for my opinion to get soured.

I also happen to like the battlefield setup.

But the thing is, I like the systems... The actual cards, I'd rather not comment on as I feel I haven't played enough. The missions certainly are limited (and/or bad) but I think there is potential in the system. Whether or not it reaches its potential is another matter entirely.

3 hours ago, Coranhann said:

or League of Legend in bronze league...

Aaaahahhh ELO ****!!!!

On topic- I think the balance is good, but we definitely suffer from not enough options. The lack of choices makes a lot of the lists seem nearly identical if you want to be super competitive. The rules update helped for sure. While I haven't played a ton of Wave 7, it's definitely less sky is falling when reading through the forums. You know, other than the lack of releases or news.

12 minutes ago, Stasy said:

Aaaahahhh ELO ****!!!!

On topic- I think the balance is good, but we definitely suffer from not enough options. The lack of choices makes a lot of the lists seem nearly identical if you want to be super competitive. The rules update helped for sure. While I haven't played a ton of Wave 7, it's definitely less sky is falling when reading through the forums. You know, other than the lack of releases or news.

Hey you know what, I agree. Imperials need another large that is not an ISD, and that works differently from an ISD.

I'm not sure what to use as, for as rich as the EU can be, Imperials were always kind of monolithic by design. But I'm sure that an effective alternative for ISD would be great.

Rebels, I'm not sure what they need. Every time I play them or I play as them, the list are varied and interesting. I love where rebels are at the moment, while I 100% agree with your statement for imperials.

12 minutes ago, Coranhann said:

Hey you know what, I agree. Imperials need another large that is not an ISD, and that works differently from an ISD.

I'm not sure what to use as, for as rich as the EU can be, Imperials were always kind of monolithic by design. But I'm sure that an effective alternative for ISD would be great.

Rebels, I'm not sure what they need. Every time I play them or I play as them, the list are varied and interesting. I love where rebels are at the moment, while I 100% agree with your statement for imperials.

People need to stop focusing so much on the presence of an ISD and more on the multiple variants available. There IS a rich diversity between ISD variants in the current meta - and a Cymoon and a Kuat play as differently from one another as a Liberty and an MC75.

That said, large bases are quite strong in the current meta, and an ISD variant is really the only option. I'm willing to concede that it might be worth addressing that fact, even given what I just said above.

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

Sorry, but no. The system of Legion is (in my opinion) worse than Armada.
There is no way to make sure you are first. I had it more than once. Stupid Luke and his Son of Skywalker. A pure random roll who is first. Both pick their 1 pip card and you have to roll.
In Armada you KNOW at least if you are first or second, and the mission should reflect this. The missions in Legion are way to bad, way to unit focused, and do not give a bonus to second (just because there is no real second player).

Second worst part: Even worse than armda, activations count. If you have more, you have a bonus. And even bigger than in Armada.

All this was without Han and the Commandos. No idea if they changed anything for it.

Understandable opinion, It is a problem with the roll off in some games, but I find the last first activation of armada the games biggest flaw.

The missions in armada is a good idea, but not in practice. So many missions never get picked to lists and when they do, there is always some standard choice, solar Corona, contested outpost, dangerous territory. I played them so many times and never played blockade run or sensor net for example. Some missions are just suicide vs some lists, like most wanted or adv gunnery. So why should we ever play them?

Sure it works, but I rather have a roll off or free dodge token over unblockable last-first. My opinion..

1 hour ago, rasproteus said:

People need to stop focusing so much on the presence of an ISD and more on the multiple variants available. There IS a rich diversity between ISD variants in the current meta - and a Cymoon and a Kuat play as differently from one another as a Liberty and an MC75.

Ok. I think I can go in your direction.

In my opinion, as a player with fleet from both faction, was and still is that Imperials get a tougher job of building an easily accessible fleet. That changed when ISD got interesting, as FFG fixed them by updating their profile to be relevant. Cymoon is not necessarily used as a Fleet Command platform, but mainly as a long range battleship, throwing high quality attacks (6+ damage per shots), which the ISD2 never truly was, all the while being cheaper than a ISD2. And the Kuat corrected the ISD1 main issue: Being a brawler without a defensive retrofit. Ok, Imperial have Tua, but that means giving up the officer slot.

And, to me, that points at one of Armada main balance issue, even though it's only a supposition:

1 - At some point in the design of the game, I suppose FFG decided that, I guess for thematic reason, Offensive retrofits would be an imperial thing, while defensive retrofits would be a rebel thing.

Seriously: Most rebel ships have defensive retrofits (except for flotillas, hammerhead and Peltas), only 2 imperials have it (Arquitens and 2 ISD) while ost Imperial ship have an offensive retrofit, and they were restricted to "dedicated carriers" such as AFmk2 and Command MC80 for rebels (then every one started having them).

2 - Somehow, Imperial are more "short distance" focused than the Rebels. Again, make sense to me thematically. Empire ships design (in Armada) pushes them to go forward, take the initiative of the aggression, and perform deadly attacks from close range. Very dark sidey. While Rebels benefited from playing from a distance, circling their opponent. But it didn't work, or not that well, at least. (Cause, no, a VSD is not a good long range ship).

And it shows!

On wave five, we get:

- Tua, allowing imperials to field a defensive retrofit on any ship.

- Arquitens, a dedicated long range, broadside, ship.

- Jerry, fixing imperial bad nav charts.

And then wave six brings:

- Disposable capacitors, allowing ships with offensive retrofits such as the VSD to perform a devastating long range attack at least once a game (which is all they need)

... that is all dandy is swell, but it doesn't mean much. Yes the game suffers from some balance issues. IMHO, mainly between Rebels & Imperials. But time (Wave 7 and the FAQ) proved that the designers are working on it, and so far, their solutions either works 100% (new ISD variants) or at least get us interesting tools (Jerry, DisCap).

Soooo, we can talk about the balance of the game, but I'll keep my position: It's pretty fine at the moment. Which leaves me longing for more ships option as an imperial (without having to pay 200$ for it, cause I have a wife, and she threatened me with divorce when she saw me reading the news about the SSD)

4 hours ago, Rocco79 said:

@Green Knight would you please!!

Hush... It's a secret ?

14 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

The game is currently in a very good state. I just came back from NOVA with @themightyhedgehog and it was hard to ignore just how well represented nearly every major ship and list archetype was including the dreaded Rieekan Aceholes list and other high quality squadron balls as well as no and low squadron fleets. And many examples of both did VERY well.

The only major concern I have right now is the ubiquity of Raddus and his ability to effectively disregard major elements of the core game mechanics when it comes to deployment advantage and positioning. This makes two major Rebel commanders (Raddus and Rieekan, respectively) for whom the primary advantage is ignoring several major balancing elements of the core gameplay mechanics. The only commander who seems to really match this clean break in a similar same way is Thrawn and his ability to let players use additional commands during the game.

A couple of years from now Raddus will be errataed to work only from a single ship - the flagship.

13 hours ago, Irokenics said:

More data collection?

Come on, just release Clone Wars for Armada already! ?

Don't worry we got it covered

2 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Understandable opinion, It is a problem with the roll off in some games, but I find the last first activation of armada the games biggest flaw.

The missions in armada is a good idea, but not in practice. So many missions never get picked to lists and when they do, there is always some standard choice, solar Corona, contested outpost, dangerous territory. I played them so many times and never played blockade run or sensor net for example. Some missions are just suicide vs some lists, like most wanted or adv gunnery. So why should we ever play them?

Sure it works, but I rather have a roll off or free dodge token over unblockable last-first. My opinion..

Yes, i have to agree. The last/first is the biggest flaw in Armada. It totally enforce the activation power game.

But it is still way better than the random part from legion. Where it comes to dice roll that decide who can activate his luke first.

For Armada there would be an easy fix (as it was said so many times already). First player activate first, second player activate last. Problem solved.

10 minutes ago, Tokra said:

Yes, i have to agree. The last/first is the biggest flaw in Armada. It totally enforce the activation power game.

But it is still way better than the random part from legion. Where it comes to dice roll that decide who can activate his luke first.

For Armada there would be an easy fix (as it was said so many times already). First player activate first, second player activate last. Problem solved.

Or they should just use the alternating activation system provided at the end of the rulebook. I always thougth that alternating first and second player each round gives the game much more strategic depth than the objectives ever could.

57 minutes ago, Tokra said:

Yes, i have to agree. The last/first is the biggest flaw in Armada. It totally enforce the activation power game.

But it is still way better than the random part from legion. Where it comes to dice roll that decide who can activate his luke first.

For Armada there would be an easy fix (as it was said so many times already). First player activate first, second player activate last. Problem solved.

Doesn't this just add another layer? With equal activations I will go last turn 1 and first turn 2. Now I don't need a bid nor do I have to out activate you.

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

Yes, i have to agree. The last/first is the biggest flaw in Armada. It totally enforce the activation power game.

But it is still way better than the random part from legion. Where it comes to dice roll that decide who can activate his luke first.

For Armada there would be an easy fix (as it was said so many times already). First player activate first, second player activate last. Problem solved.

Also last-first is not an unknown mechanic in Legion.

I think some kind of comms jammer would be an interesting upgrade in Armada. Not necessary to change any rule at all. I let the effect and cost for desginer and playtesters but is not so beautiful when you cannot last first something with Demo just because there is a flotilla with comms jammer around, and the upgrade could be not so obicuous if the effect is not different from Raddus's limitation.

15 minutes ago, rasproteus said:

Doesn't this just add another layer? With equal activations I will go last turn 1 and first turn 2. Now I don't need a bid nor do I have to out activate you.

? The first Player is not switching. If first is always first and second always last you have no way to double activate the same ship.
It does indeed at another layer problem. But non that is not already there. The Player with more ships can activate several at the same time. And if he is first Player he can move more than one in position for a next turn first activation.

And to be honest, even with this problem (last/first) the game is still really well balanced.

4 minutes ago, Tokra said:

? The first Player is not switching. If first is always first and second always last you have no way to double activate the same ship.
It does indeed at another layer problem. But non that is not already there. The Player with more ships can activate several at the same time. And if he is first Player he can move more than one in position for a next turn first activation.

And to be honest, even with this problem (last/first) the game is still really well balanced.

Would the first player only activate all his remaining ships before the second player activates his last ship?

3 minutes ago, Tokra said:

? The first Player is not switching. If first is always first and second always last you have no way to double activate the same ship.
It does indeed at another layer problem. But non that is not already there. The Player with more ships can activate several at the same time. And if he is first Player he can move more than one in position for a next turn first activation.

And to be honest, even with this problem (last/first) the game is still really well balanced.

I'm sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were advocating for alternate first activations like kkj.

I've played some second-player-last scenarios and it might actually go too far in the other direction.

Just now, rasproteus said:

I'm sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were advocating for alternate first activations like kkj.

I've played some second-player-last scenarios and it might actually go too far in the other direction.

with Tokra's suggestion second player outactivating wouldn't change a thing.

also could be arguable that activation advantage would keep some weight so it wouldn't end with players bidding for second with just one ship.