I did not find any discussion about this particular problem, so...

The Night (Dreamlands F57) states: "If it is night , treat all exhausted non-unique characters as if their printed text boxes were blank". On the field I have exhausted Dreamlands Wanderer (Dreamlands F18) and I put The Night into play. What happens? If Wanderer has its text box blanked it should not be night anymore so it is not blanked and... my head hurts.

If I recall correctly, text box includes all those "Night. It is Night" thingies.

What do you think?

I imagine this falls under the infinite loop ruling. So basically you would have to decide when it stops.

I've yet to deal with an infinite loop. Can the controlling player decide at which state to halt the loop? Which game state becomes the defacto state?

It's night, thanks to the exhausted Dreamlands Wanderer. The Night enters play. Dreamlands Wanderer is blanked. It's no longer day nor night. The effect of The Night's power ends. The Dreamlands Wanderer regains it's text. Again, it is night. Rinse, repeat.

How does this resolve? It almost seems like a situation where the loop nullifies itself, and that the end result would be neither day nor night.

Great question.

Deek said:

Just a point of detail here.... it would certainly never by day. The opposite of night (at least for the game) is non-night. The opposite of day is non-day. Night and Day are usually mutually exclusive due to card effects destroying the other. Your sentence should probably read: "and that the end result would be neither night nor non-night"

There's actually a spot in the manual itself that talks about day and night and how it can be considered both night AND day if two such cards exist causing it. (no such combos exist that I am aware of)

Just to, you know, make the discussion even stranger.

KallistiBRC said:

True! Permit me to split the hair even finer: are non-night and non-day not the same state? There's night, day and non-night/day ... or whatever one prefers to call it. When both night and day are in effect, I consider that "twilight", as per the Twilight Ritual. When it's neither night nor day? Hmm. I suppose one could argue that would also be twilight. If it's night it's not day, if it's day it's not night.

Yeeeeah.

This is my brain.

This is my brain on Cthulhu.

I like the term you've coined there. I think I'm going to have to hunt hard to find a way to make it twilight just so I can declare it to be so in one of my games.

I can't take too much credit, it's simply a logical extension the Twilight Ritual card (Twilight Horror F16). =) I could be mistaken, but I think said card also provides the path of least resistance when it comes to having both day and night cards in play, simultaneously.

Ultimately, I'm not certain how to handle the situation with The Night and the Wanderer. I'd likely decide in favor of non-night/day. The two opposing effects looping would effectively nullify each other, similar to how the FAQ details opposed loops created by the attack and defender.

Deek said:

IIRC from the FAQ should it happen, the acting player demonstrates it to show how it works and that it is infiniate and then chooses how far it goes thus deciding whether it will be night or not..

The faq addresses infinite loops, but in very specific terms. Emphasis is added by me.

When executing an infinite loop, the resolving player must follow these two steps:

1. Clearly display the infinite loop to the opponent. Thus the player must display... one FULL CYCLE of the infinite loop.

2. State how many times he or she wishes to execute THIS LOOP...

It seems to me that you can't execute part of the loop. So the loop is

Night enters, Dreamland Wanderer is blanked. The effect of Night is gone. Dreamland Wanderer is back to normal.

That loop repeats for as many times as you'd like, but the end effect is always that it is no longer Night and Dreamland Wanderer is back to normal.

?? make sense? They never talk about a partial loop - I don't think you can say "I will execute this loop 3.25 times" or something like that. First you define the loop, and then you apply that loop n times.

TheProfessor said:

Makes perfect sense. An individual rotation of the loop begins with the card effect that initiated the loop and ends with the effect that resolves just before the next rotation begins. In other words, just before the loop ... loops. Each rotation (lap?) must be played out in it's entirety, which is logical. Once started, a single rotation of the loop cannot be halted until it reaches it's conclusion.

Thanks, Prof!

Considering that The Night's and Wanderer's abilities are not triggered abilities, I don't think the infinite loop rule applies here. If it's night, all non-uniques text boxes are blanked, simple as that. But if Wanderer is blanked, it is not night anymore and if it is not night anymore, no blanked text boxes, ect. Or something. The point being: you can't control the loop as you don't trigger it. It just... mystically begins when you play The Night.

I hope I expressed myself clearly.

Edit: Better to read the FAQ again..

I think TheProfessor's explanation still stands, as the Infinite Loop section in the FAQ makes no specific mention of triggered abilities versus passive effects. It simply states that, "It is possible, with certain card combinations, to create an 'infinite loop' (such has having two cards exhaust to refresh each other indefinitely)." This seems to indicate that any combination of triggered and/or passive effects can work in concert to create a loop.

Oh, awesome. I think that clears a few problems.

With regard to the Prof's explanation, I do have an additional question:

After the loop ends and the Wanderer is back to normal, do we then apply The Night's passive effect to other cards who meet the targeting requirement?

If the Wanderer is back to normal at the end of the loop, meaning his text box is restored and it is again night, does this simply translate into the Wanderer being immune to the effect of The Night while exhausted? Does The Night then effect other exhausted, non-unique characters as normal (blank text boxes), as per normal?

Now I'm more confused than ever.

The_Big_Show said:

I dragged this over the boys at BGG and this was one of several interesting responses:

"I would interpret this as it stays night until the end of the current phase then it ceases to be night as nothing indicates it is night. Even tho the text box of 'Dreamlands Wanderer' is blank."

In other words, it remains Night even though the card that caused Night is blank. Night remains in effect for the entire phase as per the FAQ Duration of Effects , "If a triggered ability has no specified duration, then the effects of that ability expire at the end of the current phase." If an effect is in place at the start of a phase, the effect will remain until the end of the phase (unless otherwise stated), even if the card that caused the effect has since been sacrificed/destroyed/blanked.

Interesting interpretation/theory.

yes but the Night and the Wanderer have not a triggered effect. Just passive effect. They are "on" when the cards are in play. You trigger nothing.

I don't find a good answer for this loop (oh yes, why The Night have not a keyword Night ! )

When in doubt, ask the dude that made the game! I'll submit this to FFG for an official ruling.

Nobody have news about this problem ?

I don't think FFG is in any rush to answer rules questions.

Isn't this addressed in the part of the FAQ that states:

When both players have access to infinite loops that are in direct conflict with one another ..., each player can be assumed to instantly do this an infinite number of times. The two loops immediately and completely negate each other, and the game should proceed under this assumption.

? It seems to me that this is fairly straight-forward. The two negate each other immediately.

It's non-night/day (twilight) and none of the cards have lost their text? That's what I get out of it...

~Daniel

Dadajef makes an interesting point that these are not triggered things, so it is not really a loop (one doesn't trigger the other). They are both in effect all the time (passive), so it is not a loop so much as a contradiction.

This is actually one of my biggest concern for the french Nationals .... Can't wait for the new FAQ .... Hope this will come this week ... because there is only two weeks left ..