After 5 turns of Han flying around with a console fire and not bothering to fix it because I could reroll it (and took 0 damage), having R2D2 give me back about 5-6 shields and only flipping 1 damage card because I could reroll that too, hitting 3 rocks which I took 0 damage from because I could also re-roll and having stacking rerolls on attack and defense almost every turn between title, Lone Wolf and Pilot ability coupled with Kanan's force whenever I wasn't using him to clear the stress from boosting, I came the realization that Rebel Han might be a little unfair.

I think you can build a very resilient Han Solo (as I blogged this morning). But he'll cost a ton of points and not do very much damage for his cost.

Just now, SOTL said:

I think you can build a very resilient Han Solo (as I blogged this morning). But he'll cost a ton of points and not do very much damage for his cost.

I mean, he scored 3 hits almost every shot and the triple bandits backing him up weren't chumps

depends on the list you run into

if you run into a decent number of ships with a decent enough offense, the Z screen will melt in about a round and then Han will take a small eternity to chip away at the rest

the important thing to note is that Han is no longer disgustingly broken and laden with horribly designed mechanics that actively take the players out of the game by providing perfect coverage, meaning you actually have to fly the guy well to avoid fire AND get shots in.

Even with the flexibility of his...ability, you're still losing things from overlapping obstacles (namely actions) and having to go through some strenuous conditions (r2-d2 requires you to be unshielded AND damaged) to get everything you need.

Will need some more testing, but while he seems to be really cool with all those re-rolls, he has ACTUAL conditions to fufill and limitations to consider unlike the horridness of 1st edition Fat Han

some guys in my local group have been hyped about Rebel and Scum Han so my plan is to include seismics in my lists and just blow up the rocks to alter the board to my advantage.

amen, seismics on trajectory deathrain is pretty neat

granted, I've dropped seismics literally just to get pre-engagement, pre-activation barrel-rolls to get into a better position for the following round...but I'm sure they're fine as actual bombs too!

Scum Han might be very competitive, have to get those obstructions. Have seen some people using Rigged Cargo Chute, two in the same list really clutter up the table. Yeah, Seismics might help clean things up a bit, with the added benefit/danger of a little splash damage. Cheap as heck and most bombers (that I build at least) have a second bomb slot they aren't using. Don't see why Seismics couldn't work on the Loose Cargo Field either, it just says to select an obstacle at range 0-1.

Rebel Han's ability is pretty amazing for sure and he actually shows up at I6. Yes, not having a limit of uses per turn and applying to things like R2-D2 make him scary defensively. At the end of the day though, it is a large base ship with 1 AGI that is coming at around 60% of your list as described by OP. I guess if you really believe in your luck with the rerolls it might play out well. Probably kinda predictable to always want to hug one obstacle or another, but you could create some of your own for even more points on the same frame. I would also always at least add missiles so I can cover my front arc because the bow tie is pathetic. The title is really helpful for keeping such a fat ship alive, but I could definitely see ditching the title and just going all in on those rerolls though. The one you described is already coming in at 114 points, so it's a lot to ride mostly on luck and conditional maneuvering.

I guess if I believed that I could reasonably expect the same luck as OP, and to be able to stay at range 1 of an obstacle the entire game, then I would be more excited.

6 minutes ago, RebelProfundity said:

Scum Han might be very competitive, have to get those obstructions. Have seen some people using Rigged Cargo Chute, two in the same list really clutter up the table. Yeah, Seismics might help clean things up a bit, with the added benefit/danger of a little splash damage. Cheap as heck and most bombers (that I build at least) have a second bomb slot they aren't using. Don't see why Seismics couldn't work on the Loose Cargo Field either, it just says to select an obstacle at range 0-1.

Rebel Han's ability is pretty amazing for sure and he actually shows up at I6. Yes, not having a limit of uses per turn and applying to things like R2-D2 make him scary defensively. At the end of the day though, it is a large base ship with 1 AGI that is coming at around 60% of your list as described by OP. I guess if you really believe in your luck with the rerolls it might play out well. Probably kinda predictable to always want to hug one obstacle or another, but you could create some of your own for even more points on the same frame. I would also always at least add missiles so I can cover my front arc because the bow tie is pathetic. The title is really helpful for keeping such a fat ship alive, but I could definitely see ditching the title and just going all in on those rerolls though. The one you described is already coming in at 114 points, so it's a lot to ride mostly on luck and conditional maneuvering.

I guess if I believed that I could reasonably expect the same luck as OP, and to be able to stay at range 1 of an obstacle the entire game, then I would be more excited.

It's a large base, you're accidentally at range 1 of an obstacle all the time. I think I've had 1 die roll in about 6 games where I wasn't at range 1 of an obstacle. And what are you talking about with the bowtie? It's so easy to get side on arcs on target with a boosting large base it's not even funny.

pretty sure Rigged Cargo should count for triggering rebel Han's ability, too

but being within range 1 of an obstacle (and not suffering adverse affects from overlapping, or indeed landing on one) is still easier said than done, especially because FFG did the right thing by removing the falcon's 1-turns

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

pretty sure Rigged Cargo should count for triggering rebel Han's ability, too

but being within range 1 of an obstacle (and not suffering adverse affects from overlapping, or indeed landing on one) is still easier said than done, especially because FFG did the right thing by removing the falcon's 1-turns

I mean, you can definitely use Kanan to fly over debris using white maneuvers and shed the stress and only have 1/64 chance of taking damage. Trust me, it's way easier than you think to keep rocks around. I've had more than a few times where I was like "I'm probably out", but nope, the only time I've been out was when I did a pair of Hard 2's narrowly missing the board edge to duck another ship and even then, only missed out on the re-rolls for a turn.

Rocks or no rocks he still gets blocked all to **** when I have flown him.

38 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

"That's a nice rock you're sitting next to, Mr. Solo. Now let me show you a trick I learned from my father."

6 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

It's a large base, you're accidentally at range 1 of an obstacle all the time. I think I've had 1 die roll in about 6 games where I wasn't at range 1 of an obstacle. And what are you talking about with the bowtie? It's so easy to get side on arcs on target with a boosting large base it's not even funny.

Alright, I'll bite. I think that the bowtie is pathetic because it synergizes so poorly with almost every single rebel gunner when compared to a ship like the Y-Wing with a single mobile arc. This is because even the opposite side of the bowtie does not count as a separate arc, while the single mobile arc/primary arc does. So, Han gunner, for example, can work as a double tap in a Y-Wing, but can't even attack a completely different ship on the other side of the bow tie.

The single mobile arc has more useful arc positioning and better gunner interactions. Despite this, the Falcon still has and pays for a gunner seat. Maybe I will be thankful in the future. Right now it seems like pointless cost on top of pointless cost with this ship. Once the more powerful turrets are inevitably introduced, this will become even more glaring,because the single mobile arcs will get an upgrade, while the Falcon will need some sort of other solution to keep up with the damage creep.

This isn't just Rebels either, it's bad on anything cursed enough to have it. There is no good solution because a front/side arc, combined with Rigged Cargo Chutes or bombs, and the large base, would make just about any high initiative ship too difficult to arc dodge in actual practice. So, we are stuck with the pathetic bow tie, which is best in its cheapest 2 dice form where it does as little damage as possible to your bottom line.

I am sure you do always have some target in one of the two side arcs, especially if you are constantly using your action to boost at I6 and never getting blocked. The problem then is that you are saying that you were using only the Han reroll + lone wolf to generate 3 hits from a 3 die attack almost every turn. Just as long as you still always accidentally end up at range 1 of an obstacle and at least 3 from any of your other ships of course. Now, if you weren't always using Kanans force charge to erase the stress from boosting around with no EU, then I would believe that level of output is reasonably replicable. My guess is that I would see a lot of focus and blank results even after rerolling.

Honestly, it's still not enough offensive output for the points for me though, even if your dice and positioning do end up being extra lucky. Just too much left up to chance, which seems thematic and appropriate for Han, but are not particularly good in a tournament setting against other expericed players. Overall, I'll just say that I definitely believe Rebel Han can be great in ideal conditions.

4 minutes ago, RebelProfundity said:

Alright, I'll bite. I think that the bowtie is pathetic because it synergizes so poorly with almost every single rebel gunner when compared to a ship like the Y-Wing with a single mobile arc. This is because even the opposite side of the bowtie does not count as a separate arc, while the single mobile arc/primary arc does. So, Han gunner, for example, can work as a double tap in a Y-Wing, but can't even attack a completely different ship on the other side of the bow tie.

The single mobile arc has more useful arc positioning and better gunner interactions. Despite this, the Falcon still has and pays for a gunner seat. Maybe I will be thankful in the future. Right now it seems like pointless cost on top of pointless cost with this ship. Once the more powerful turrets are inevitably introduced, this will become even more glaring,because the single mobile arcs will get an upgrade, while the Falcon will need some sort of other solution to keep up with the damage creep.

This isn't just Rebels either, it's bad on anything cursed enough to have it. There is no good solution because a front/side arc, combined with Rigged Cargo Chutes or bombs, and the large base, would make just about any high initiative ship too difficult to arc dodge in actual practice. So, we are stuck with the pathetic bow tie, which is best in its cheapest 2 dice form where it does as little damage as possible to your bottom line.

I am sure you do always have some target in one of the two side arcs, especially if you are constantly using your action to boost at I6 and never getting blocked. The problem then is that you are saying that you were using only the Han reroll + lone wolf to generate 3 hits from a 3 die attack almost every turn. Just as long as you still always accidentally end up at range 1 of an obstacle and at least 3 from any of your other ships of course. Now, if you weren't always using Kanans force charge to erase the stress from boosting around with no EU, then I would believe that level of output is reasonably replicable. My guess is that I would see a lot of focus and blank results even after rerolling.

Honestly, it's still not enough offensive output for the points for me though, even if your dice and positioning do end up being extra lucky. Just too much left up to chance, which seems thematic and appropriate for Han, but are not particularly good in a tournament setting against other expericed players. Overall, I'll just say that I definitely believe Rebel Han can be great in ideal conditions.

Rebel gunners suck, it has no impact on this pilot and given that he's functionally the same cost as last edition with the same stats and a better pilot ability by far, he very much did not pay for anything. As for the butterfly arc, it's way better than a front arc. Your maneuvering constraints when all you have to do is have something to the left or right is so much easier even without boosting. You can frequently just pull hard turns and still get actions where a normal ship would have to tallon roll/k-trun/sloop to stay on target or just disengage for a turn. Couple that with the fact that X-Wing still uses sub 90 degrees front arcs making the sides even that much more generous and you'll rarely even bother rotating arcs because you don't have to (which is why I really think people are losing their minds over Luke Gunner for nothing because even against aces that side arc is so huge and easy to line up). I've probably spent 5-6 turns in the hourglass configuration out of 6 games with Han (many of which also featured Lando who also stayed in the butterfly config most of the time).

Thought experiment. Set up a table, or just do this real quick before a normal game. Take a large base. See how many positions it can be in without being at range 1 of an obstacle. In terms of the active play area i.e. not about to fly off the board, it's at least 90% of the play area. You seem to really be under the impression that obstacles are rare or hard to be next to, but even without your opponent's help, the base size is so generous it doesn't matter if you're even trying to be around obstacles as long as you do a half decent job bracketing the table at turn 0, it just happens most turns.

Put it on the table. Han looked pretty good on paper, but I wasn't sure and for many of the same reasons you aren't sure, but most of the rebel ships are super meh. As soon I got through my first few games my impression of him immediately changed. People think he got nerfed or his tricks got worse. That's not accurate. His pilot ability is strictly better, the title is strictly better even if a little more costly, the Falcon has a built in boost (granted it's red, but that's also a lot of cost savings over 1.0), Kanan provides a lot of utility and the butterfly arc doesn't hurt him at all and R2D2 crew works better now just because of the reduced likelihood of flipping crits, c-3p0 is anti-good, but with the buff to the title it's much more durable against multiple damage sources while still being hard or impossible to take down with a single ship.

For reference, Base 1.0 Han was 46pts. The Version Paul Heaver flew at 2014 worlds weighed in at 61pts

2.0 Han is 92 (so 46 in 1.0 cost) and my current kit is 124 (so 62 in 1.0 cost) so very similar, and you could easily shuffle the points to get him down if that's your preference

The only reason I'm currently running the Bandits as wingmen was just examining how well Heaver's Fat Han list held up and with some relatively minor changes it does, but I am going to be trying different wingmates just for the **** of it (a well kitted Luke seems solid).

I'm just very surprised nobody was talking about him because it's been clear in all of my games that the pilot, and how much utility his ability has, was significantly better than my ability to utilize it.

Seems like the yt gunner slot is just dandy for Agile Gunner

When Han has to constantly be snaking around (or through!) obstacles, those 10 points seem invaluable

10 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Thought experiment. Set up a table, or just do this real quick before a normal game. Take a large base. See how many positions it can be in without being at range 1 of an obstacle. In terms of the active play area i.e. not about to fly off the board, it's at least 90% of the play area. You seem to really be under the impression that obstacles are rare or hard to be next to, but even without your opponent's help, the base size is so generous it doesn't matter if you're even trying to be around obstacles as long as you do a half decent job bracketing the table at turn 0, it just happens most turns.

Indeed. Pretty much it's only if you're in the side channels that it's likely to be an issue. Certainly if you're deliberately trying to hug the rocks you should be fine.

Combined with the Falcon title for double-rerolled evades, it's going to be a bugger to kill. With Agile Gunner taking care of rotate (most of the time) and Han doing dice modifiers, you're free to use your action to evade and trigger the falcon title.

Frankly, I agree with @Burius1981, @skotothalamos and @PhantomFO; for their cost, seismic charges are a great answer to the Falcon and Outrider. I'm considering packing one or two into a striker swarm to help cut open a clear fighting space.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Indeed. Pretty much it's only if you're in the side channels that it's likely to be an issue. Certainly if you're deliberately trying to hug the rocks you should be fine.

Combined with the Falcon title for double-rerolled evades, it's going to be a bugger to kill. With Agile Gunner taking care of rotate (most of the time) and Han doing dice modifiers, you're free to use your action to evade and trigger the falcon title.

Frankly, I agree with @Burius1981, @skotothalamos and @PhantomFO; for their cost, seismic charges are a great answer to the Falcon and Outrider. I'm considering packing one or two into a striker swarm to help cut open a clear fighting space.

Yeah, I was thinking Seismics may see play both as an answer to swarm and a potential way to deal with pilots like Han (trajectory simulator seismics are hard to ignore), but in terms of cost, you really have to remember how weak the defensive tech is now for most ships. Han's consistent damage has proven perfectly fine. 4-6 ship lists bleed ships consistently, 2-3 ship lists have better mods but find it hard to do anything meaningful to Han through his defensive tech. It would have to be a list with a decent number of ships that could all at least withstand being pounded by 3 dice every turn while also being able to break through his defense + regen. Not a lot of candidates for that from what I've seen.

I'm sad seismic torpedoes are not back yet. I did rarely use them in 1.0. And they did work well to take away outrider jank. lol

3 hours ago, Arc170Chris said:

I'm sad seismic torpedoes are not back yet. I did rarely use them in 1.0. And they did work well to take away outrider jank. lol

It seems they've been replaced by the Seismic Charge/Trajectory Simulator combo.

true, but sadly most ships that had torps can't run bombs now.

22 hours ago, RebelProfundity said:

Alright, I'll bite. I think that the bowtie is pathetic because it synergizes so poorly with almost every single rebel gunner when compared to a ship like the Y-Wing with a single mobile arc. This is because even the opposite side of the bowtie does not count as a separate arc, while the single mobile arc/primary arc does. So, Han gunner, for example, can work as a double tap in a Y-Wing, but can't even attack a completely different ship on the other side of the bow tie.

Uh, hang on.

That's not true.

You can definitely shoot out of the other side of the bowtie with VTG. Each side is a separate arc, why would you think otherwise?

I'm super keen to fly Rebel Han. I love his new ability. A lot of things can work with his ability, but as others have said, he can get very expensive pretty quickly.

I'm personally going to forgo a gunner on him to save some points, and probably only run one crew instead of two. Lando will be my first choice. Engine Upgrade instead of Kanan to mitigate the red boost. Kanan has the force point, but I'd rather use the extra 5pts on a wingmate. Trick shot and Rigged Cargo Chute seem a natural fit for him. That's 111pts all up.

I'm also keen to fly rebel Lando!

2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Uh, hang on.

That's not true.

You can definitely shoot out of the other side of the bowtie with VTG. Each side is a separate arc, why would you think otherwise?

This! A thousand times this.

Just so we're sourcing it... Rules Reference, p4:

Quote

A ship with a double turret arc indicator has two [single arc icon] in opposite directions.

amen., bow tie arc is two arcs that just happen to have a fixed position relative to one another

they are, however, still horrible with Vet Gunner because you have to have an enemy in either arc. This almost never happens unless your opponent is spoon feeding you, and it literally CANNOT happen if you're side-winding along the table edge

but that's precisely why they made Bistan (though personally feel Agile Gunner is the best on Han because it gives you flexibility to counteract his ability restriction...even if rerolls on two attacks is **** sexy)