41 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Was the sarcasm really necessary?

Absolutely.

39 minutes ago, YourHucklebrry said:

It's very much just my opinion, offered to help you understand why some people react negatively to these minor criticisms. If the tone was upsetting, fine, it was meant in broad strokes rather than personally. Hopefully you can re-read it later and see some of what I'm saying. And that's definitely not saying you have to agree with it.

Yeah FFG isn't some blameless angel, for sure. It just feels like the old 'find the error in the FFG article' game has gone a bit far at times.

You did this when responding to me as well. Do you not see how calling people childish is inflammatory? You reply like it is only our failing to understand the grace of your logic that is the problem. We do understand your stance: "it's not a big deal, it's not a great card, you are getting 1, don't worry about the ones you aren't getting, let it go"

Try to see our side: FFG said something would occur. It did not. They made a mistake. I am pointing out that mistake. Maybe you need to let it go. Accept there was an error and not worry about it if we are pointing it out. Or do you believe that it wasn't an error? That it was a deliberate decision to state that the cards would be in the conversion, but to leave this one out? Because all facts, statements from FFG, and press releases point to this being a mistake, not how they intended it.

You said my view is "The Devil is in the details" And yours is "to see the Forrest for the trees." I'm guessing you meant that I am hung up on nit picking the details and you are just happy with what you are getting. Though "Seeing the forest for the trees" means that you don't look at something as a whole, and that you focus on the individual details, while "The devil is in the details" means you didn't look at the details and possibly missed something important. So you kind of have it backwards. But I think it is neither.. I see it as I am simply stating a fact.

I am not hunting for errors. This is something I noticed while list building. Despite all the talk of it being overcosted, I found Afterburners to be very useful in some cases. There was a list in which I wanted to add it to multiple ships and was surprised when my 'collection' per YASB said I only would have a single one. This did not kick off some holy crusade for me. Just something I filed away as "huh.. that is inconvenient, I thought they said every expansion card from released ships would be in the conversion kits." It was put in the same mental box as the fact that Lando's falcon has general use mods that for the time being you can only get in that expansion, that I can't fly my triple Defender list anymore, and how silly it is that the rebel conversion kit comes with 2 Ghost and Phantom 1 conversions, but only 2 B-wings... I mean how many people are running 2 VCX 100s? hahaha

I happened across this thread, and the the third person to comment, correctly stated that it was odd that it was missing from the conversion kits got roasted on this "forum mostly meant to grow and enhance the enjoyment of the hobby." When I spoke up to agree, I was told I was wrong, and I should just leave it be.

It may be your opinion that it's fine. But I am not dealing with an opinion. I am dealing with a fact. I don't 'think' FFG should have the all the fang upgrade cards in the conversion, I have the fact that they expressly said that is what they were doing. It's like I uncovered some massive conspiracy and everyone is trying to hush me lest the truth get out! lol People, relax. The truth is already out there. Denying it isn't helping. Me stating it isn't hurting anyone.

1 hour ago, JasonCole said:

I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not a mistake has been made. I *do* think people are taking it way too seriously and personally for some freakish reason. There's bound to be a mistake made somewhere. If this is it, then I'm with the crew that thinks it's being blown way out of proportion, and I think this level of "rabblerabblerabble" before they've even had a chance to take corrective action of any kind (even if it's an email telling you to piss off) is unjustified.

um.. no. people are definitely arguing that no mistake was made. I have been told by multiple people that FFG never said all upgrades from expansions would be in the conversion kits, that there is 1 in the core and that is what they meant when they said we would get all the cards in the expansions, and that FFG needs to make money so they intentionally are requiring people to buy the Fang. The 'rabble rabble' is coming from that side of the fence. "Shhh.. don't speak ill of the most holy FFG. For if you do they will smite us and take away the clone wars! They are infallible. What you call a mistake is just your inability to see the wisdom in their ways!" lol

1 hour ago, PanchoX1 said:

If they took the one that I could get out of a pack I may not need (faction specific conversion kit) and stuck that one in a pack that I needed to buy to play (core set), I would be ok with that. And I feel, I do NOT know, that this is most likely the case. Even though I still see it as a broken promise on FFG's part, I'm basically ok with it now.

really?! you'd be cool with the idea that that to run more than 1 of that card you'd have to spend $20 on a ship you would never use? And this isn't an either/or situation.. you are getting 1 in the core regardless. you don't get to modify the scenario with "well, if they did this and this.." There is an amazing card, one you would certainly put on every ship you flew. You get 1 in the core. It is also packed into a 2nd ed expansion of ship which you already own the max number of. But it is not in the conversion kit which is supposed to bring those ships you own up to the exact same secs as if you had purchased the 2nd ed expansions.

Afterburners was not taken out of the conversion kit and put into the core. It is in the core, like many other upgrades. It is missing from the conversion kit, unlike any other upgrades.

And before you circle back around to say that AB isn't that great and you wouldn't put it on every ship.. that was why I made up this fictitious force card. Because "it isn't that great" is not an excuse for the oversight. It is an oversight regardless of the quality of the card.

12 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

um.. no. people are definitely arguing that no mistake was made. I have been told by multiple people that FFG never said all upgrades from expansions would be in the conversion kits, that there is 1 in the core and that is what they meant when they said we would get all the cards in the expansions, and that FFG needs to make money so they intentionally are requiring people to buy the Fang. The 'rabble rabble' is coming from that side of the fence. "Shhh.. don't speak ill of the most holy FFG. For if you do they will smite us and take away the clone wars! They are infallible. What you call a mistake is just your inability to see the wisdom in their ways!" lol

They aren't requiring you to buy the fang to get more afterburners, you can always buy more core sets.

4 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

really?! you'd be cool with the idea that that to run more than 1 of that card you'd have to spend $20 on a ship you would never use? And this isn't an either/or situation.. you are getting 1 in the core regardless. you don't get to modify the scenario with "well, if they did this and this.." There is an amazing card, one you would certainly put on every ship you flew. You get 1 in the core. It is also packed into a 2nd ed expansion of ship which you already own the max number of. But it is not in the conversion kit which is supposed to bring those ships you own up to the exact same secs as if you had purchased the 2nd ed expansions.

Afterburners was not taken out of the conversion kit and put into the core. It is in the core, like many other upgrades. It is missing from the conversion kit, unlike any other upgrades.

And before you circle back around to say that AB isn't that great and you wouldn't put it on every ship.. that was why I made up this fictitious force card. Because "it isn't that great" is not an excuse for the oversight. It is an oversight regardless of the quality of the card.

Fine remove it from the fang fighter and have no way for scum players to get it unless they buy the starter set for it.

Happy?

most likely the conversions were settled on before the starter, so unfortunately it did not make it into the conversions. FFG tried to toss you a bone by putting it into a a scum ship pack so you could get it.

Is it ideal? no its not. but its not some evil conspiracy, they could have left it out of the fang and therefore out of the scum faction entirely forcing you to buy 2x x-wings and 1x tie fighter to get it. This was there way of keeping there promise that you do not have to buy out of faction to get an upgrade.

5 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Fine remove it from the fang fighter and have no way for scum players to get it unless they buy the starter set for it.

Don't scum players have to buy the starter for the damage deck anyway?

2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Fine remove it from the fang fighter and have no way for scum players to get it unless they buy the starter set for it.

Happy?

most likely the conversions were settled on before the starter, so unfortunately it did not make it into the conversions. FFG tried to toss you a bone by putting it into a a scum ship pack so you could get it.

Is it ideal? no its not. but its not some evil conspiracy, they could have left it out of the fang and therefore out of the scum faction entirely forcing you to buy 2x x-wings and 1x tie fighter to get it. This was there way of keeping there promise that you do not have to buy out of faction to get an upgrade.

See, this guy gets it! That's what I want, I want them to recall all the Fangs, remove this card. I also want them to delay the release of 2nd ed, recall all the conversion kits, and make sure they are to my specification. That is clearly what I meant by constantly repeating that I am just pointing out an oversight and people are getting way too upset about it.

And no, the starter was pretty clearly done first, and if you have seen the contents of a conversion kit, you'd know that they made some late additions to it already, for example the Y-wing stuff is all in a separate baggie. It is not that they couldn't have put the Fang upgrades in the conversion kit. They decided what was going to be in the Fang before they put it in the conversion kit.. I mean, how else could they possibly have done it?! do you think they just got lucky and printed the fang pilots for the conversion kit and the same ones in the expansion as a wild coincidence?

I'm not calling it a conspiracy. Mistakes happen. Though I did say people are acting like I uncovered one, imploring me to be quiet about it like I will stir up some hornets nest if I bring it to light.

18 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Fine remove it from the fang fighter and have no way for scum players to get it unless they buy the starter set for it.

Happy?

most likely the conversions were settled on before the starter, so unfortunately it did not make it into the conversions. FFG tried to toss you a bone by putting it into a a scum ship pack so you could get it.

Is it ideal? no its not. but its not some evil conspiracy, they could have left it out of the fang and therefore out of the scum faction entirely forcing you to buy 2x x-wings and 1x tie fighter to get it. This was there way of keeping there promise that you do not have to buy out of faction to get an upgrade.

That argument doesn't hold much water for 2 reasons:

- There is no way to get a Damage Deck from FFG outside the core set, so Scum players will need a core to play regardless, unless they go for secondary market, case in which what card is where is irrelevant anyway.

- There are several cards in the core set, some of which made it to the conversion kits just fine, others (the Force cards) are core set exclusive. Singling out Afterburners (and only Afterburners) for 'special treatment' is unlikely.

One can speculate about FFG s reasons for doing this, but I'm pretty sure 'being nicer to Scum players than to everybody else' isn't one of them.

14 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

You did this when responding to me as well. Do you not see how calling people childish is inflammatory? You reply like it is only our failing to understand the grace of your logic that is the problem. We do understand your stance: "it's not a big deal, it's not a great card, you are getting 1, don't worry about the ones you aren't getting, let it go"

Try to see our side: FFG said something would occur. It did not. They made a mistake. I am pointing out that mistake. Maybe you need to let it go. Accept there was an error and not worry about it if we are pointing it out. Or do you believe that it wasn't an error? That it was a deliberate decision to state that the cards would be in the conversion, but to leave this one out? Because all facts, statements from FFG, and press releases point to this being a mistake, not how they intended it.

You said my view is "The Devil is in the details" And yours is "to see the Forrest for the trees." I'm guessing you meant that I am hung up on nit picking the details and you are just happy with what you are getting. Though "Seeing the forest for the trees" means that you don't look at something as a whole, and that you focus on the individual details, while "The devil is in the details" means you didn't look at the details and possibly missed something important. So you kind of have it backwards. But I think it is neither.. I see it as I am simply stating a fact. 

I am not hunting for errors. This is something I noticed while list building. Despite all the talk of it being overcosted, I found Afterburners to be very useful in some cases. There was a list in which I wanted to add it to multiple ships and was surprised when my 'collection' per YASB said I only would have a single one. This did not kick off some holy crusade for me. Just something I filed away as "huh.. that is inconvenient, I thought they said every expansion card from released ships would be in the conversion kits." It was put in the same mental box as the fact that Lando's falcon has general use mods that for the time being you can only get in that expansion, that I can't fly my triple Defender list anymore, and how silly it is that the rebel conversion kit comes with 2 Ghost and Phantom 1 conversions, but only 2 B-wings... I mean how many people are running 2 VCX 100s? hahaha

I happened across this thread, and the the third person to comment, correctly stated that it was odd that it was missing from the conversion kits got roasted on this "forum mostly meant to grow and enhance the enjoyment of the hobby." When I spoke up to agree, I was told I was wrong, and I should just leave it be.

It may be your opinion that it's fine. But I am not dealing with an opinion. I am dealing with a fact. I don't 'think' FFG should have the all the fang upgrade cards in the conversion, I have the fact that they expressly said that is what they were doing. It's like I uncovered some massive conspiracy and everyone is trying to hush me lest the truth get out! lol People, relax. The truth is already out there. Denying it isn't helping. Me stating it isn't hurting anyone.

I thought we were done talking because I thought we understood each other, but I'll try to be more clear. When I said you think the devil is in the details and I think you're missing the forest for the trees, I was generalizing/summarizing where I think our views diverge so that we both might at least agree on that. I'll try to do that better:

You see this detail/mistake (FFG said X, FFG did Y) that I won't/can't deny and you think it's important for a number of reasons: it's a sign of bad business practices, it puts some players at a disadvantage, etc.. Once again, this is not 'wrong' per se. If someone else is telling you you're wrong about what FFG said/did, get grumpy if you like, if I told you you were wrong, sorry I take it back. Where I think we disagree is I don't think we should stop or focus there. What I'd rather do is ask (and answer) more questions: is the problem real (yes), how big is it (very small), can we find some simple solutions (yes) etc. It's not trying to deny the detail (and if I did earlier, again, my bad), it's trying to figure out it's appropriate size and place in the bigger picture.

My personal conclusion is it's insignificant when we look at the big picture of converting to 2.0. But I could certainly be wrong.

2 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

- There is no way to get a Damage Deck from FFG outside the core set, so Scum players will need a core to play regardless, unless they go for secondary maeket

I will chime in and say that this is a pretty bad thing to do to Scum-only players. There should really have been two core sets: the "traditional" one we got and one for the Scum players that basically has the Core set stuff minus the minis and imp/rebel faction specific cards and maybe add in a few Scum-only cards to inspire people to buy the alternate core.

6 minutes ago, YourHucklebrry said:

I thought we were done talking because I thought we understood each other, but I'll try to be more clear. When I said you think the devil is in the details and I think you're missing the forest for the trees, I was generalizing/summarizing where I think our views diverge so that we both might at least agree on that. I'll try to do that better:

You see this detail/mistake (FFG said X, FFG did Y) that I won't/can't deny and you think it's important for a number of reasons: it's a sign of bad business practices, it puts some players at a disadvantage, etc.. Once again, this is not 'wrong' per se. If someone else is telling you you're wrong about what FFG said/did, get grumpy if you like, if I told you you were wrong, sorry I take it back. Where I think we disagree is I don't think we should stop or focus there. What I'd rather do is ask (and answer) more questions: is the problem real (yes), how big is it (very small), can we find some simple solutions (yes) etc. It's not trying to deny the detail (and if I did earlier, again, my bad), it's trying to figure out it's appropriate size and place in the bigger picture.

My personal conclusion is it's insignificant when we look at the big picture of converting to 2.0. But I could certainly be wrong.

Fair enough. And I agree it's not that big of a deal. I've been onboard with 2nd ed since the day it was announced. I can't wait for Thurs to be able to play it for real instead of all the home made dials and proxy cards I've been using

9 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

really?! you'd be cool with the idea that that to run more than 1 of that card you'd have to spend $20 on a ship you would never use? And this isn't an either/or situation.. you are getting 1 in the core regardless.

How do you know that there was always one in the core regardless? How do you know it's not, or was not, an either or situation?

12 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

you don't get to modify the scenario

sorry. I didn't realize you were limiting the discussion to something that may not be the actual situation. so, to be fair, based on your scenario, no. I would not be ok with feeling like I had to spend $20 or something I wouldn't use to get one card, when I was expecting it to be in a box that it's not, unless I felt that one card was worth the expense. And, for the record, I've stated that the lack of one in the scum kit feels like a broken promise. But despite your scenario, we really don't know why it's not in there. Do you have internal connections that can vouch that the core set was always meant to have a copy included? Or that the card is missing from the conversion kit due to an oversight but no other reason? I don't. If you don't either then your scenario has a lot of assumptions in it. Things change during development and this could easily be the reason why its not there, a developmental change.

All I know for sure is they said one would be in the scum conversion kit and it's not. Bummer. But hey! I get one in my core set! I wasn't expecting that. Cool. yeah, I'm ok with that.

Just now, PanchoX1 said:

How do you know that there was always one in the core regardless? How do you know it's not, or was not, an either or situation?

sorry. I didn't realize you were limiting the discussion to something that may not be the actual situation. so, to be fair, based on your scenario, no. I would not be ok with feeling like I had to spend $20 or something I wouldn't use to get one card, when I was expecting it to be in a box that it's not, unless I felt that one card was worth the expense. And, for the record, I've stated that the lack of one in the scum kit feels like a broken promise. But despite your scenario, we really don't know why it's not in there. Do you have internal connections that can vouch that the core set was always meant to have a copy included? Or that the card is missing from the conversion kit due to an oversight but no other reason? I don't. If you don't either then your scenario has a lot of assumptions in it. Things change during development and this could easily be the reason why its not there, a developmental change.

All I know for sure is they said one would be in the scum conversion kit and it's not. Bummer. But hey! I get one in my core set! I wasn't expecting that. Cool. yeah, I'm ok with that.

Because there are several upgrades in the core. Because FFG says the scum conversion kit will include ALL of the cards in the *** Fighter expansion, and the Core is not part of the equation. No other card was left out of the conversion kits because it is in the core.

You don't get to modify the scenario, because no one can. The card is theoretical, but the scenario is the current, real world one we are dealing with. It is what it is. I am not limited it to what may be, I am limiting it to what we know it to be. Unless of course the conv kit does have ABs despite the the pre-release one missing them. In which case, as I said before I recant all I have said, and no hard was done.

I was just pointing out the that the quality of the card is irrelevant.

20 minutes ago, papy72 said:

I will chime in and say that this is a pretty bad thing to do to Scum-only players. There should really have been two core sets: the "traditional" one we got and one for the Scum players that basically has the Core set stuff minus the minis and imp/rebel faction specific cards and maybe add in a few Scum-only cards to inspire people to buy the alternate core.

yeah, but that's a whole other issue. The core set falls outside of the rules. Personally I'd love it if they just sold the deck. I have all the rocks, debris, dice, templates and tokens I need! I don't need more TIEs, I have 8. I don't need more X-wings, I have 4. So the core is perfectly fair.. is screws everyone equally! lol

2 hours ago, papy72 said:

I will chime in and say that this is a pretty bad thing to do to Scum-only players. There should really have been two core sets: the "traditional" one we got and one for the Scum players that basically has the Core set stuff minus the minis and imp/rebel faction specific cards and maybe add in a few Scum-only cards to inspire people to buy the alternate core.

...and they'd sell three of them. To people in this thread. Core sets serve one purpose: they're the splashy marketing gimmick that gets you to buy the game at a relatively cheap cost compared to individual models. Then, once you're hooked... mistakes are made (if you don't get it, google it). There isn't a single imperial or rebel player out there that needs a new core set for anything other than what you do. Oh look, my 6th T-65 and my 9th and 10th TIE/ln. Whoopty f****n do. What they SHOULD have done was make a new core set (low run numbers - for people that are actually new to the game), and a conversion core that is just cards and maneuvers and new tokens (high run numbers - for everyone that doesn't need three repeat ships, but oh yeah flappy xwings). Charge $30 for the conversion instead of $40, then watch the screaming, wailing, and gnashing of teeth with threads of *omg I can't b3leev they r charging me to play my gam3!!1!11eleventeen!". Oh wait. We already have those, too.

Well, I kind of remember everyone go crazy on purchasing A-Wing packs for PTL back then, and we almost never played them (like ...ever...)

Stick with the ships you want, and proxy the upgrade cards instead?

Two lessons V1 taught me:

1) Don't buy packs just for upgrade cards

2) Don't buy too many packs too soon. Stick with minimum or down the road you end up with lots of unused ships & upgrade cards.

For myself, mistakes have been done in Wave 1 & Wave 2 (read: ended up with too many T-65s, Ties, Interceptors, B-Wings, and A-Wings). I got smarter @ wave 3 & up ... well almost except that one time I fell for the triple jumpmaster trap *Wink*