2 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Still  the question was open of if Imperial players would like this, and I know I would, as I've been saying.

I thought the question was if the game needed it?

O mean, that’s the difference isn’t it? ?

Of course Imp players want it.

But it might not be what the game needs...

52 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I thought the question was if the game needed it?

O mean, that’s the difference isn’t it? ?

Of course Imp players want it.

But it might not be what the game needs...

I guess it was, wasn't it. But an Imperial player might suggest that the game needs it, because they want it

21 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I guess it was, wasn't it. But an Imperial player might suggest that the game needs it, because they want it

In universe quote:

If wishes were starships...

... farmers would fly...

2 hours ago, Norsehound said:

What if I said yes?

Then it may be best to find a different game without asymetric factions.

My first though on this topic was '**** no!'. The factions are asymmetric, and this is a problem the Imps need to work around. The Imps don't have anything in that role because they don't use that role in their military.

But as I continued to read, the wheels starting churning...

I agree that the Imps are missing something there. A light, cheap, effective ship that can support the larger ships without getting in spitting range. However I think throwing a CR90 clone to the Imps would be overpowered.

What about a lancer frigate? Same price range, but like a single black front die and some red dice on the side. Make it slower though and less maneuverable. 2 speed with less flexibility. It's a long range support vessel. The CR90 is a chaser, it can move, manuever, get into tight spots, line up double arcs, etc. This thing would be slower, and more cumbersome, more health, but a little less firepower and flexibility. The CR90 still has it's place, but the Imps get a ship that can fill that price range. One thing that still needs to be considered though is activation padding. If you make this ship too powerful, then it becomes a great, cheap activation padder to make the really powerful Imp ships a little too powerful.

27 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

My first though on this topic was '**** no!'. The factions are asymmetric, and this is a problem the Imps need to work around. The Imps don't have anything in that role because they don't use that role in their military.

But as I continued to read, the wheels starting churning...

I agree that the Imps are missing something there. A light, cheap, effective ship that can support the larger ships without getting in spitting range. However I think throwing a CR90 clone to the Imps would be overpowered.

What about a lancer frigate? Same price range, but like a single black front die and some red dice on the side. Make it slower though and less maneuverable. 2 speed with less flexibility. It's a long range support vessel. The CR90 is a chaser, it can move, manuever, get into tight spots, line up double arcs, etc. This thing would be slower, and more cumbersome, more health, but a little less firepower and flexibility. The CR90 still has it's place, but the Imps get a ship that can fill that price range. One thing that still needs to be considered though is activation padding. If you make this ship too powerful, then it becomes a great, cheap activation padder to make the really powerful Imp ships a little too powerful.

The Lancer-class frigate is a extremely dedicated anti-starfighter ship that has no capital ship grade weapons or shielding. If I had to guess stats it would have a 2/1/1 Shield arrangement, 4 Hull, and no anti-ship dice at all. In exchange for these weaknesses the Empire would have a ship with 3-4 Blue anti-squadron dice, probably no more than 40pts. The Lancer will keep bombers away from your ISDs and VSDs and nothing more. If your opponent has no squadrons, you brought an overpriced activation.

6 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Then it may be best to find a different game without asymetric factions.

Why? is it wrong to not see worth in a fighter combination mix that works only with the presence of one commander?

On 9/4/2018 at 2:09 AM, Norsehound said:

Using armed Gozantis feels like desperation (let alone they can't realistically hit as hard, or as certainly, as TRC-90s) since the Rebels aren't forced into these kinds of compromises with their armed transports. Best GOZ use is to make them cheap for a fleet support slot- going the expensive gun version with something lethal like an intel officer turns them into expensive pinatas that die too easily. Concentrate fire on a GZ feels like an opportunistic novelty, or desperation move, than something to base your entire strategy on.

Just a note that I find this point of view to be quite limiting. With IF on a Cymoon or Chimera, you have a dedicated damage every turn from those long range guns. I took second at a recent store championship with a Tarkin fleet designed around 2 assault Gozantis and some other long range fire.

But even if you're not trying to optimize red dice fire, 2 standard Gozantis cost a point less than a TRC90, and can put put 6 blue dice per turn, with CF dials. And blues are reliable dice. I've had a great deal of success using Gozantis as pocket gunboats. No, they don't provide as much immediate or long range firepower as a cr90. But they aren't useless or limited to desperation either. They are surprisingly good at plinking off shields to soften for a hammer blow, or to push extra damage cards onto an injured ship.

Finally, their small dice pools render defense tokens highly inefficient, if not useless. (Also, Intel officers? I'm not seeing the synergy there, I just keep mine bare bones - no upgrades or just a fleet support, as the fleet needs)

9 minutes ago, Onidsen said:

Just a note that I find this point of view to be quite limiting. With IF on a Cymoon or Chimera, you have a dedicated damage every turn from those long range guns. I took second at a recent store championship with a Tarkin fleet designed around 2 assault Gozantis and some other long range fire.

But even if you're not trying to optimize red dice fire, 2 standard Gozantis cost a point less than a TRC90, and can put put 6 blue dice per turn, with CF dials. And blues are reliable dice. I've had a great deal of success using Gozantis as pocket gunboats. No, they don't provide as much immediate or long range firepower as a cr90. But they aren't useless or limited to desperation either. They are surprisingly good at plinking off shields to soften for a hammer blow, or to push extra damage cards onto an injured ship.

Finally, their small dice pools render defense tokens highly inefficient, if not useless. (Also, Intel officers? I'm not seeing the synergy there, I just keep mine bare bones - no upgrades or just a fleet support, as the fleet needs)

While this may be true, I don't feel this is an effective use of points. Besides with the recent rules change, using these gun Gozantis means once your "real" ships are gone, you're tabled. Wouldn't it be better to spend the points towards better combat ships or upgrading your fighters to do more damage?

To say nothing if an upgunned ISD with a Gunnery team ends up on the table and opens fire on your GZs.

For the cost of those two armed GZs, I'd rather take an ARQ or the equivalent points in Firesprays (3), which are more self-sufficient and harder to destroy (plus they don't need IF's infrastructure).

With Intel officer you can threaten evades, and thus force that one point of damage to stick. Otherwise you're only plinking non-evade heavies and mediums. Without them you are, at best, exhausting the evade. If I'm spending the infrastructure to build up and take advantage of Intensify Firepower, I want something that'll do more than maybe get 1 damage on a target. IF is better for handling blanks, not causing fighter-levels of attrition damage from multiple ships (something that is impossible right now with the flotilla limitations).

It would be a different story if you had some Imperial CR-90-equivelants with around 2 red dice on a forward facing to take advantage of this, possibly inflating to 3-4 dice on a strike with one guaranteed damage.

36 minutes ago, Onidsen said:

Just a note that I find this point of view to be quite limiting. With IF on a Cymoon or Chimera, you have a dedicated damage every turn from those long range guns. I took second at a recent store championship with a Tarkin fleet designed around 2 assault Gozantis and some other long range fire.

But even if you're not trying to optimize red dice fire, 2 standard Gozantis cost a point less than a TRC90, and can put put 6 blue dice per turn, with CF dials. And blues are reliable dice. I've had a great deal of success using Gozantis as pocket gunboats. No, they don't provide as much immediate or long range firepower as a cr90. But they aren't useless or limited to desperation either. They are surprisingly good at plinking off shields to soften for a hammer blow, or to push extra damage cards onto an injured ship.

Finally, their small dice pools render defense tokens highly inefficient, if not useless. (Also, Intel officers? I'm not seeing the synergy there, I just keep mine bare bones - no upgrades or just a fleet support, as the fleet needs)

And I was wondering what to do with my 5-7 spare points in my Tarkin fleet. Thank you sir, take my like for this idea!

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

While this may be true, I don't feel this is an effective use of points. Besides with the recent rules change, using these gun Gozantis means once your "real" ships are gone, you're tabled. Wouldn't it be better to spend the points towards better combat ships or upgrading your fighters to do more damage?

To say nothing if an upgunned ISD with a Gunnery team ends up on the table and opens fire on your GZs.

For the cost of those two armed GZs, I'd rather take an ARQ or the equivalent points in Firesprays (3), which are more self-sufficient and harder to destroy (plus they don't need IF's infrastructure).

With Intel officer you can threaten evades, and thus force that one point of damage to stick. Otherwise you're only plinking non-evade heavies and mediums. Without them you are, at best, exhausting the evade. If I'm spending the infrastructure to build up and take advantage of Intensify Firepower, I want something that'll do more than maybe get 1 damage on a target. IF is better for handling blanks, not causing fighter-levels of attrition damage from multiple ships (something that is impossible right now with the flotilla limitations).

It would be a different story if you had some Imperial CR-90-equivelants with around 2 red dice on a forward facing to take advantage of this, possibly inflating to 3-4 dice on a strike with one guaranteed damage.

I should clarify - the list want entirely designed to enable the assault Gozanti. That was me misspeaking -my apologies. I had a Needa/TTC Arq as well, along with a heavily upgraded Cymoon and a raider I plus a light tie screen. But the deck is designed to capitalize on IF synergy, and I find that the assault Gozantis did that very well. I don't rely entirely on fighter level damage from multiple small ships, but I do find that a few guaranteed damage every single turn adds up faster than people expect. It turns the shot that drained the front and side shields of the medium or heavy into the shot that put 3 or 4 damage to the hull.

Gunnery teams is a legitimate concern, although you can play around it by navigating to the side arcs, or by saturating the front with multiple targets.

About the evades, I didn't find that to be a problem. Exhausting the evade or scatter can be useful. I wouldn't shot at a CR90 or a flotilla with the goz unless I planned to follow it up with another shot from elsewhere, of course. But forcing the player to choose whether to evade/scatter or to save the token for an incoming shot later is not a bad play.

The tabling is something that threatens any list with a flotilla at all, so I'm not worried about it too much. If I've lost that much, I've lost anyways (literally 56 points in the Gozantis, plus 32 in squadrons). I could run an Arq instead (without upgrades, unless I cut stuff from elsewhere), or the squadrons, but I like having 6 effective activations. To each their own, I suppose.

Definitely wouldn't go with firesprays, though. I don't find then worthwhile as a generalist - they seem to require a dedicated list to work well, IMO.

3 hours ago, Norsehound said:

Why? is it wrong to not see worth in a fighter combination mix that works only with the presence of one commander?

Well done on failing to follow a conversation.

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Well done on failing to follow a conversation.

Quote

Now I would like to see all the rebels to ask to see a Rebel large ship which is as efficient and flexible as an ISD.

I jumped on this statement with my response because I feel the Rebels have no business asking for an omnibalanced Rebel large ship when their fighter mixture is so much more efficient. So efficient, I'd argue, that they don't need large ships of their own and in fact can kill them regularly in the hands of an expert player running maximum squadrons. To this day the only counter I've heard of against maximum squadron Rieekan aces is to not engage it. I have not seen a battle report to change my opinion on this, but I'd like to. If I can see and understand a play-by-play that counters the kinds of speed 0 shenanigans list I've been beaten into the ground with, repeatedly, then I'd be more inclined to let the Rebels have things they request.

That's why I'm here. I don't understand how Dras' point is relevant about giving away those squadrons and cards he mentioned, which made me segway to "yes, I'd be fine trading away Howlrunner's redundant anti-squadron advantages for better anti-ship aces that are actually worth taking." Because I also don't like the fact that the Empire is so wasteful on anti-squadron efforts since the point of the game is to kill ships- which their interceptor-focused fighters do not do well without Sloane (which shouldn't have to be the case if these squads were good in the first place).

I'm also fine dropping this point because we should be talking about a small ship the Empire can use for cheap dice throwing that isn't dependent upon scatter. I'll accept I went down that rabbit hole when it wasn't needed and move on.

1 hour ago, Onidsen said:

I should clarify - the list want entirely designed to enable the assault Gozanti. That was me misspeaking -my apologies. I had a Needa/TTC Arq as well, along with a heavily upgraded Cymoon and a raider I plus a light tie screen. But the deck is designed to capitalize on IF synergy, and I find that the assault Gozantis did that very well. I don't rely entirely on fighter level damage from multiple small ships, but I do find that a few guaranteed damage every single turn adds up faster than people expect. It turns the shot that drained the front and side shields of the medium or heavy into the shot that put 3 or 4 damage to the hull.

Gunnery teams is a legitimate concern, although you can play around it by navigating to the side arcs, or by saturating the front with multiple targets.

About the evades, I didn't find that to be a problem. Exhausting the evade or scatter can be useful. I wouldn't shot at a CR90 or a flotilla with the goz unless I planned to follow it up with another shot from elsewhere, of course. But forcing the player to choose whether to evade/scatter or to save the token for an incoming shot later is not a bad play.

The tabling is something that threatens any list with a flotilla at all, so I'm not worried about it too much. If I've lost that much, I've lost anyways (literally 56 points in the Gozantis, plus 32 in squadrons). I could run an Arq instead (without upgrades, unless I cut stuff from elsewhere), or the squadrons, but I like having 6 effective activations. To each their own, I suppose.

Definitely wouldn't go with firesprays, though. I don't find then worthwhile as a generalist - they seem to require a dedicated list to work well, IMO.

I find Firesprays quite worth it. Like B-Wings they throw two dice with bomber on the battery (a perk among fighters), have three AA to be self-sufficient, and have decent hull to survive an alpha strike. Speed 3 is serviceable, it works for plenty of Rebel fighters. If I'm ever at a loss on what fighter squadron to take, I find all Firesprays pretty reliable. Boba Fett is also a good pick for all the extra things he does- and the one auto-damage he deals is a nice take-that against aces you don't want to shoot at, or precious 3-hull Imperial aces hiding behind their scatters. Rogue is nice too, since I can either pass on commanding them or they can handle themselves once they get out of command range of my carriers.

In fact I'd daresay there isn't a situation where Firesprays are a bad idea and are one of the better generalists in the Imperial lineup. They certainly have more utility than Aggressors- which suffer from the anti-squadron focus as I mentioned above. Way back when Rhymer was also, often, paired with maximum Firesprays to the point where it was a major meta problem for Imperial squadron variety. Now it's gone (but Yavaris is still around...).

Personally I don't feel like the Empire can utilize IF to its fullest. The Cymoon is literally twice the cost of the cheapest Pelta, taking up a good portion of your list, and there isn't a good cheap ship to take advantage of all those auto 1-hits. If we were still in a universe where you can spam rows of Gozanti assault cruisers perhaps it would work (ie 3 attacks on the same target out of Gun Peltas would force an evade ship to start using other tokens), but the Rebellion is going to use this synergy so much better. Peltas are cheap, and you can load up with scout hammerheads flinging 2+1 dice at long range to auto-gurantee the damage Rebels can't get in the same way the empire can with things like Vader and screed. Imperial players can still get a lot of leverage out of IF (2x ARQ with a Cymoon comes to mind as a base), but lack the unit that has decent hitting power without being super fragile, or competing with another function that the unit does so much better (in the GZ's case, it's boosted comms token passing or fighter commanding).

RDRs might be able to stand in place of the corvettes, but relying on blues, they don't need the control out of IF. To be more efficient might as well drop the IF infrastructure and let the RDRs hit with Dcaps naturally, giving them another upgrade to use with their blue dice.

It would be a different story if the Empire had a corvette available, say a hull 4 starship with 2 reds out the front and a single blue on every other arc. If it doesn't surpass 44 points it'll be a good argument for a ship to center IF around- particularly if the defense token situation was tricky (such that you wouldn't want to use Vader to re-roll dice when such a small ship needs those defense tokens). Attacking with 2 reds you can inflate to 3 with CF, if you're not using Vader you can get that extra assurance out of a triggered IF command. Then if they're attacked as well they can take a few hits.

10 hours ago, Norsehound said:

To this day the only counter I've heard of against maximum squadron Rieekan aces is to not engage it. I have not seen a battle report to change my opinion on this, but I'd like to. If I can see and understand a play-by-play that counters the kinds of speed 0 shenanigans list I've been beaten into the ground with, repeatedly, then I'd be more inclined to let the Rebels have things they request.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/280862-pair-a-dice-store-champs-bat-rep-vista-ca/

Norse - the bat rep you requested. If they drop to speed 0 they are extra screwed. I have played against Rieekan aces a total of 5 times with this fleet and the only time I haven't TABLED it for 10-1 was this instance, where the lifeboat escaped with 2 hull cause of a flubbed roll.

And firesprays are absolute garbage. Full stop.

10 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/280862-pair-a-dice-store-champs-bat-rep-vista-ca/

Norse - the bat rep you requested. If they drop to speed 0 they are extra screwed. I have played against Rieekan aces a total of 5 times with this fleet and the only time I haven't TABLED it for 10-1 was this instance, where the lifeboat escaped with 2 hull cause of a flubbed roll.

And firesprays are absolute garbage. Full stop.

Agreed, and I'll chime in that due to some bad dice when it counted I was one hull from tabling Nate Coda's Rieekan aceholes at Worlds (you know, the world champion and also a really nice guy) and I was running no squadrons at all.

I'm not contesting that aceholes is good, I'm contesting that @Norsehound

1 minute ago, Snipafist said:

Agreed, and I'll chime in that due to some bad dice when it counted I was one hull from tabling Nate Coda's Rieekan aceholes at Worlds (you know, the world champion and also a really nice guy) and I was running no squadrons at all.

I'm not contesting that aceholes is good, I'm contesting that @Norsehound

... is wrong that you can only win by not engaging. It's pretty vulnerable to tabling and needs to be played pretty carefully post-errata.

Don't type with a baby in your lap, kids. I couldn't edit the previous post at all. Something about tagging someone being the final entry, I suspect.

8 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

... is wrong that you can only win by not engaging. It's pretty vulnerable to tabling and needs to be played pretty carefully post-errata.

Don't type with a baby in your lap, kids. I couldn't edit the previous post at all. Something about tagging someone being the final entry, I suspect.

Sounds like that baby is being a ****. Better throw him in jail or the Thunderdome, teach him a lesson.

Triple GT-Cymoon with Tarkin and Sovereing againstworld champion fleet. 10-1 to me (Triple Cymoon). He was not Nathan Coda but it is possible to survive completely ignoring squadrons, as long as you kill the ships of course.

9 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Sounds like that baby is being a ****. Better throw him in jail or the Thunderdome, teach him a lesson.

Ms. Baltanok climbed up Mrs. Baltanok, then very deliberately pushed the power button on her computer. She is also super strong, so if Snipafist Jr needs a sparring partner in the Thunderdome...

5 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Triple GT-Cymoon with Tarkin and Sovereing againstworld champion fleet. 10-1 to me (Triple Cymoon). He was not Nathan Coda but it is possible to survive completely ignoring squadrons, as long as you kill the ships of course.

For what it's worth, Nate's fleet doesn't really work well unless you fly it like Nate does. I have heard of a few people trying it out after he won Worlds only to find they got tabled fairly easily because they screwed up in deployment/sailed towards the enemy fleet/didn't GTFO when necessary. You need to play it very carefully or else your ships will die. It's not really all that plug-and-play.

1 minute ago, Snipafist said:

For what it's worth, Nate's fleet doesn't really work well unless you fly it like Nate does. I have heard of a few people trying it out after he won Worlds only to find they got tabled fairly easily because they screwed up in deployment/sailed towards the enemy fleet/didn't GTFO when necessary. You need to play it very carefully or else your ships will die. It's not really all that plug-and-play.

I know, that's why I pointed it out. It is still an OP Yavaris with OP rebel aces against three sad vanilla ISDs, though... with Tarkin. I mean, maybe the statement you should discuss is if not engaging is the only way to beat Nate ?

28 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Triple GT-Cymoon with Tarkin and Sovereing againstworld champion fleet. 10-1 to me (Triple Cymoon). He was not Nathan Coda but it is possible to survive completely ignoring squadrons, as long as you kill the ships of course.

Glad to see I'm not the only one exploring Tarkin in this wide open meta.

@Norsehound , I don't disagree that rebels can leverage the small ship swarm with IF better. But that's a far cry from saying that Imps can't compete. Sure your Cymoon takes up a large portion of your list. That just means that you're not running a pure small ship swarm. It's a combined arms fleet, leveraging the synergy between the consistent damage of a few small ships (probably including at least one Arq) and the knockout power of a star destroyer (and the dice fixing is helpful on a Cymoon too).

Anyways, our discussion has kind of wandered. All I originally meant to say was that, while you saw no use in using Gozantis as combat ships, I've seen some success using then that way, and running concentrate fire on them has been a consistent (though not ubiquitous) part of my strategy for some time now.

18 minutes ago, Baltanok said:

Ms. Baltanok climbed up Mrs. Baltanok, then very deliberately pushed the power button on her computer. She is also super strong, so if Snipafist Jr needs a sparring partner in the Thunderdome...

Onidsen Jr crawled over to my laptop, fussed at it until I relented and opened the case, then - with full awareness of what he was doing - turned the thing on and proceeded to push keys on the keyboard just like he saw daddy doing earlier. He was so pleased with himself!

They grow up so fast...

Give the Imperials a generic version of whatever the heck the Carrion Spike is.

Looks to be around CR-90 size, plus could come with a small base "Cloaking" Upgrade.

4 hours ago, Indy_com said:

Give the Imperials a generic version of whatever the heck the Carrion Spike is.

Looks to be around CR-90 size, plus could come with a small base "Cloaking" Upgrade.

As long as it has a Support Team slot.

Threads never die on these forums do they?

Anyways FFG could pull some more EaW ships like the Broadside Cruiser or Tartan Patrol Cruiser to be the Imperials CR90 counterpart. Or the Vigil-class corvette because if it's triangular it must be better.

The Imperials really do have a lot of Canon/Legends options for small ships, and it would be awesome if Imperial MSU could have 5-8 ships to use.