Just now, HappyDaze said:

Do any of you play your Stormtrooper SGTs as spending all of their actions to direct their squads?

Well, since rank-and-file stormtrooper sergeants generally don't have abilities that buff their comrades at the cost of their own actions/maneuvers/incidentals, no. If they did, yes I would.

As I stated earlier, just saying "shoot the guy on the left!" wouldn't require an action, but is also a vague enough instruction to not grant any specific bonus. Spending Advantage and such in combat to give Boost dice is a little different, since you paid something (an Advantage, namely) to get it, and could represent either a Sergeant suddenly giving a clear, concise instruction to a subordinate, or just maneuvering the target into a more vulnerable position. Or really, any number of things. As far as talents go, I don't recall seeing anything that, in a combat situation, just give something for nothing. If there is a talent that does something similar to Speaks Binary and specifically has zero cost in actions/maneuvers/incidentals/advantage/triumph/Force/somethingelseIhaven'tthoughtof, I'm not aware of it.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

I forget about those since I loathe the crafting rules almost as much as I hate TFA & TLJ.

I'm not disagreeing the crafting rules are OP because they are, but they provide a justification to making Speaks Binary an Action since when you consider the crafted droid you could build, coupled with the crafted gun, and then that gun modded with all manner of attachments, making Speaks Binary an Action every round I find completely fair since the PC is essentially directing a walking battleship turret.

2 minutes ago, ErikModi said:

Well, since rank-and-file stormtrooper sergeants generally don't have abilities that buff their comrades at the cost of their own actions/maneuvers/incidentals, no. If they did, yes I would.

As I stated earlier, just saying "shoot the guy on the left!" wouldn't require an action, but is also a vague enough instruction to not grant any specific bonus. Spending Advantage and such in combat to give Boost dice is a little different, since you paid something (an Advantage, namely) to get it, and could represent either a Sergeant suddenly giving a clear, concise instruction to a subordinate, or just maneuvering the target into a more vulnerable position. Or really, any number of things. As far as talents go, I don't recall seeing anything that, in a combat situation, just give something for nothing. If there is a talent that does something similar to Speaks Binary and specifically has zero cost in actions/maneuvers/incidentals/advantage/triumph/Force/somethingelseIhaven'tthoughtof, I'm not aware of it.

I agree here as well. The droid tech PC need not burn an Action to just sic their droids on targets, that's an Incidental, I'm just not handing out a stack of Boost dice as an Incidental.

34 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I agree here as well. The droid tech PC need not burn an Action to just sic their droids on targets, that's an Incidental, I'm just not handing out a stack of Boost dice as an Incidental.

Then you are denying the player a bonus to which their character is entitled per the rules.

You're adding additional limits to the talent.

53 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Whether people want to repeat the Action I leave to each table, I would because it's simply too good not to. Combat is also too dynamic and fluid and I would say that giving commands involves giving direction throughout more detailed than 'shoot them'. Narratively when they get those Advantages and Successes from those Boost dice that's a result of the direction they've received from their controller and that needs to be more than a simple phrase and needs to be ongoing for my comfort level.

The Talents that boost others often last for more than one turn, sometimes a duration based on ranks of Presence. Likewise, they effect multiple targets based on Presence or Leadership. I agree that an action should be necessary to grant the bonus to the droids, but:

• What Difficulty would you set for the Leadership(?) check?
• How many droids (or minion groups of droids) could the character apply Speaks Binary to with a single use of this check?
• How long would the bonus last?

I know that there are no fixed answers for this; I'm just trying to see how you would rule it.

If you need to give elaborate commands worthy of a boost die for the talent to work, then what is the effect of having one rank in that talent? under that interpretation you get a boost die for doing something that would be worth a boost anyway. Having or not having the talent at one rank wouldn't affect the situation at all.

This one could be more than one Turn in the case of a crafting check, I wouldn't expect building an item occurs in a minute. The combat section/structured play points out some Actions may take longer than a Turn. There are no rules about med checks but I am thinking treating a severed limb might take a little elbow grease and more than 60 seconds, although I've never really hawked it, being called lefty seemed like enough burden.

There is no dice roll to use it imo, you issue your commands/instructions and burn the Action like the section says. Whether a GM wants to allow a Leadership check to extend the effects I'd leave up to them, but that's a little cheesey for my tastes, Leadership means conflicted people I think, not toasters.

My co GM has a houserule called the Commander's Hat, and when players start ordering others around and telling them how to do whatever he makes them burn the Action.

How many droid allies at once I'd have to just say whatever is reasonable. I suppose it could be a droid army if someone wanted to go off the charts.

It lasts for the check, so to me if it's building something, it's that check, which could take hours or days I'd think.

It's a unique Talent in that it has narrative, structured, crafting, and combat implications. Hunter is kinda like it, a lot of applications, makes you wonder about some of the original Talents and all these years later would they make them the same now.

It's an interesting argument. I have to say that I disagree with command as an Action (basically, no dice involved), although I agree that as an Incidental is way OP.

In Special Modifications, instruct a droid takes from an Incidental to a Maneuver. Since you are providing boost dice, I would rule it as a maneuver. If you have +2 drones behaving as a minion group, I would not allow the boost unless you take a full action.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

The Talents that boost others often last for more than one turn, sometimes a duration based on ranks of Presence. Likewise, they effect multiple targets based on Presence or Leadership. I agree that an action should be necessary to grant the bonus to the droids, but:

• What Difficulty would you set for the Leadership(?) check?
• How many droids (or minion groups of droids) could the character apply Speaks Binary to with a single use of this check?
• How long would the bonus last?

I know that there are no fixed answers for this; I'm just trying to see how you would rule it.

The talent doesn't say it requires a check, so no check.

The talent specifically says "a non-player droid," so I'd limit it to one.

The boost is used on the next action that droid takes, after which it is used and must be applied again if they want the benefit again.

At least, that's what it reads like to me.

2 hours ago, ErikModi said:

The talent doesn't say it requires a check, so no check.

I'm going from the text of the Leadership skill, where it implies that a check will occur, and from the idea that almost all Actions require a check.

I would also mention that your rulings on it all lean to the most restrictive possible answers. I doubt that the talent would be very appealing to play under your interpretation.

6 hours ago, Rithuan said:

It's an interesting argument. I have to say that I disagree with command as an Action (basically, no dice involved), although I agree that as an Incidental is way OP.

In Special Modifications, instruct a droid takes from an Incidental to a Maneuver. Since you are providing boost dice, I would rule it as a maneuver. If you have +2 drones behaving as a minion group, I would not allow the boost unless you take a full action.

All Simple Difficulty checks are Actions with no dice. Like say for instance, ordering droids you made to do something.....

43 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

All Simple Difficulty checks are Actions with no dice. Like say for instance, ordering droids you made to do something.....

Simple checks (like those for initiative) are still ruled against a bar Difficulty 0. Advantages and Triumphs can still have effects as described under the Leadership skill.

29 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Simple checks (like those for initiative) are still ruled against a bar Difficulty 0. Advantages and Triumphs can still have effects as described under the Leadership skill.

Unless

Quote

If failure is virtually impossible, the task should not even require a check—the GM may simply state the proposed action succeeds.

I started a scoundrel:gambler/shipwright/scientist named "Whistler" (because he whistles binary) and used the fully operational rules to swap hulls (to a maxed out sleek carapace) on an ir-3f to make it look like a modernized consulate and add a hyperdrive, added a retrofitted hangerbay that docks a custom sil3 shuttle made with fully operational... basically a flattened eggshaped salon pod. The salon pod shuttle being a separate ship could have its own gunnery droid brain as did the main ship so together 2 attacks per round with pilot and astrogation droid brains and hrd gynoid ships ai avatar (yeah I totally ripped off Rommie, back when starship andromeda was on I had a major crush on lexa doig) anyway with high output ion turbines being the ir-3f's base 4 speed to 5 and the shipwright's push the specs bringing it to 6, the ship could haul @$$, with 4 green plus boosts piloting check, quad medium laser cannons on the shuttle to deal with fighter, 2 twin light turbolasers being alternated between by the main ship's gunnery droid brain, that thing is a crazy potent for a 1 PC ship thanks to speaks binary and the uber starship crafting. It's like a much better but with downgraded weapons. version of a stock consular.

24 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I started a scoundrel:gambler/shipwright/scientist named "Whistler" (because he whistles binary) and used the fully operational rules to swap hulls (to a maxed out sleek carapace) on an ir-3f to make it look like a modernized consulate and add a hyperdrive, added a retrofitted hangerbay that docks a custom sil3 shuttle made with fully operational... basically a flattened eggshaped salon pod. The salon pod shuttle being a separate ship could have its own gunnery droid brain as did the main ship so together 2 attacks per round with pilot and astrogation droid brains and hrd gynoid ships ai avatar (yeah I totally ripped off Rommie, back when starship andromeda was on I had a major crush on lexa doig) anyway with high output ion turbines being the ir-3f's base 4 speed to 5 and the shipwright's push the specs bringing it to 6, the ship could haul @$$, with 4 green plus boosts piloting check, quad medium laser cannons on the shuttle to deal with fighter, 2 twin light turbolasers being alternated between by the main ship's gunnery droid brain, that thing is a crazy potent for a 1 PC ship thanks to speaks binary and the uber starship crafting. It's like a much better but with downgraded weapons. version of a stock consular.

?

7 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

?

I totally agree with that, after having read the first 10 or so posts I thought the point of this thread was how broken can speaks binary get, or maybe I didn't read far enough and missed the point of the thread?

7 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I had a major crush on lexa doig

Who with eyes didn't?

5 hours ago, ErikModi said:

Who with eyes didn't?

Those with a very outspoken preference for blondes.

The jealous girlfriends / wives /husbands (!?) / etc.

Children too young to have that major crush,at least for the reason I would assume most would have a major crush.

Fortunately, I belong to none of those groups. ?

More back on topic, I jokingly mentioned how, in my mind, translating : "KILL THEM ALL!" and then actually saying that would become more than just an action. Really, try saying this out loud:

" 01001011010010010100110001001100001000000101010001001000010001010100110100100000010000010100110001001100 ".

You just said "KILL THEM ALL" in binary. You spoke binary. Joking aside, what is Speaks Binary anyways (besides a talent that can give... debatable... side effects? Is it, indeed, converting your speech to zeroes and ones, and then somehow conveying those to your NPC droid allies? Or is it the ability to blurt out R2-D2 like chirps and whistles? As a role - player opposed to a roll - player I like to start there (same as wanting to know not how, but what, a Miraluka actually sees).

Next, is the actual rules text. We all know there are notable differences between the small summary boxes of the talent trees and the factual text in the books. And sometimes there is a notable difference or disparity between box-and-expanded-text simply referring to making a skill check, and the actual skill description mentioning when, how, and where to make checks. We all know some activities don't require a check. No Athletics checks for walking up a flight of stairs, no Mechanics checks to open a simple door. Unless conditions apply. Try walking up the same flight of stairs while drunk, in a spaceship that has lost its artificial gravity function and is tumbling down the atmosphere. Try opening that door when you're a Dresselian whose player didn't think to spend those XP to have the character being adapted to a tech-rich grander galaxy, and have his character find a door instead of a leather flap that covers an opening. And there is the fact that not all activities that seem to be the same, are handled the same. In one talent, a check is firmly mentioned, in another talent write-up a check isn't mentioned. Omission? Purposefully? I don't know, I don't care, I just want to get on with the game.

That's where interpretation comes along. And with interpretation comes disagreement. When I say HIWPI (How I Would Play It), and I would make Speaks Binary a full blown Action (not an incidental nor a maneuver), and I would say so at my table, then my table isn't for everybody.

Just so we are clear for those that are saying this should be an Incidental, and as simple as 'sic em', at your tables, your Speaks Binary PC can in one Turn, give orders to one set of droids 'sic em', to another set of droids 'open that door', then another 'heal his wounds', and another'drop this grenade over there', as Incidentals, all getting how many ever Boost dice from the ranks of the Talent, then Move from Long to Short range or into cover, draw a weapon and fire, all in one Turn. That's RAW. In regards to Incidentals it's a GMs call, but that's all pretty simple statements you could say to other PCs. That's not OP? Really? It's not about semantics or interpretations of how many words are required, it's a mechanical balance issue. To each their own, it's an Action at my table based on the fact giving commands to allies is an example written in the rule book in the section on rules for Actions.

I'd suggest it being at least a manoeuvre.

1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

In regards to Incidentals it's a GMs call

And that's all it takes to nip that kind of nonsense in the bud.

2 hours ago, Xcapobl said:

You just said "KILL THEM ALL" in binary. You spoke binary. Joking aside, what is Speaks Binary anyways (besides a talent that can give... debatable... side effects? Is it, indeed, converting your speech to zeroes and ones, and then somehow conveying those to your NPC droid allies? Or is it the ability to blurt out R2-D2 like chirps and whistles?

Binary as a language has been defined as being dense enough to allow droids (like R2) to communicate large amounts of data very quickly and efficiently. Even species like the Ryn, who can with a little practice mimic astromech sounds, can't speak with the level of complexity and detail the Binary language allows actual droids to use. So I'd say the "Speaks Binary" talent reflects being able to communicate on something like the level a droid does, with a level of understanding that helps you direct them sufficiently to generate Boost Dice.

And I can already tell someone's going to use that explanation to mean it doesn't cost an action, but look at it this way. . . most people who take Speaks Binary are not droids . So that means they can't actually reproduce the sounds of Binary. Rather, what it probably means is that they understand Binary sufficiently to have a relatively quick back-and-forth with a droid, giving them precise enough instructions and answering questions with sufficient clarity in a short enough timespan that it only take an action to map out enough of a course for the droid to get Boost Dice.

Okay. . . oboy. Time to sit down to a lovely dinner of crow.

So, ran this past my group today. We had much the same discussion, and I reiterated several points raised by this thread. In figuring things out about the Speaks Binary line of talents, one of my players (not the one who was interested in getting the talent, note) noticed that Supreme Speaks Binary grants the "Speaks Binary Maneuver," which includes benefits from Speaks Binary (basic) and several other benefits besides (grants the droids your ranks in a skill, target a number of droids equal to ranks in Speaks Binary, etc.).

Now, several other talents call out that they grant their own action, maneuver, or incidental. Speaks Binary (basic) not doing so, but that Supreme Speaks Binary does, coupled with the fact that (unlike other Improved/Supreme talents) it doesn't specify that this maneuver is in place of the action the basic version requires, leads me to believe that Speaks Binary (basic) is intended to be used as an incidental, and only Supreme grants sufficient benefits to require expending a maneuver. However, that Supreme Speaks Binary specifically increases the number of targets also leads me to conclude Speaks Binary (basic) can only target one droid at a time, and can only be done once per turn.

So that's basically what we settled on. Speaks Binary is an incidental that can target one non-player droid at a time and can only be used once per turn.

If the Supreme version wasn't a Maneuver you wouldn't be able to use it with Speaks Binary since when you're giving the commands you're already performing an Action. It also stipulates once an encounter because letting a single minion use your Skill ranks, plus Speaks Binary is really really powerful. It doesn't mean giving commands isn't an Action, it means it adds a Maneuver to the use of the Talent that makes it even more powerful.

25 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

If the Supreme version wasn't a Maneuver you wouldn't be able to use it with Speaks Binary since when you're giving the commands you're already performing an Action. It also stipulates once an encounter because letting a single minion use your Skill ranks, plus Speaks Binary is really really powerful. It doesn't mean giving commands isn't an Action, it means it adds a Maneuver to the use of the Talent that makes it even more powerful.

Except that's not how any other talents that grant "unique" incidentals, maneuvers, or actions work, to my knowledge.