I have a question for the older fluff-ologists out there.

In Marienburg: Sold Down the River, there are numerous references to Sea Elves. Are these just Elves that happen to be seafaring, or was there a separate race back in the 1E days?

Thanks in advance for the help.

It was a separate race at that time. It was eventually retconned to mean seafaring High Elves.

schoon said:

While in v1 Sea Elves and High Elves were considered separately, they were both what we would now consider High Elves. Basically Sea Elves were, as you say, those elves of Ulthuan who were seafaring, whereas the High Elves were the more introverted ones who didn't leave Ulthuan much (or at all). Nowadays the elves of Ulthuan are split into far more sub-cultures, so declaring some as Sea Elves and some as High Elves is pointless. However I personally like to think that humans still (mistakenly) see Sea Elves and High Elves as different.

Apparently it's ancient history day on the FFG boards.

A quick skim through of WFRP 1st Ed gives me two main references for Sea Elves. Note that there may be a few others hidden in the book as well.

From page 217 of the Bestiary section:

"The Elves living around the coasts of the Elven Kingdoms have a tradition of seamanship and fighting, and lack the normal Elven disdain of physical labour. Because of this, the High Elves look down on them, thinking them rough and uncouth. They are brave warriors and tireless guardians of the seaways, and it is thanks to them that the sea routes between the Old World and Lustria remain open. Sea Elves are quite venturesome, and can often be found as merchants and traders in old World ports. Most of them speak Old Worlder as well as Elvish, and many have a smattering of the Norse language too. The Elven trading posts of the Old World are run almost exclusively by Sea Elves."

Page 288 of the World Guide section makes a brief mention of Sea Elf Trading Communities, noting that largest is in Marienburg with a population of about 500.

I don't think they were ever considered differnet races really. Almost different castes/cultures would be a better term. Depending on if you lived on the inside or the outside of the doughnut island. High Elves wouldn't be seen abroad .. those would be the Sea Elves.

But most of my knowledge of things GW oriented comes from the 80's when I was writing.

I dislike that Elves are separated as three different "races". Isn' there really one race - ELVES - and then you have three cultures really, with some cultural differences. Stats are probably very much same...

SO, Sea Elves are basicly just the fourth culture. Difference for Elves is that if Elf is born and living mostly outside Ulthuan it seems to "affect" Elf (short lifeline or something like that...). Sea Elves are mostly born and living outside Ulthuan altough very much connected to there. This way they are more High Elves than Wood Elves or Dark Elves. But they are still they own culture.

this difference between what is a culture and what is a race seems very interesting. it could really be a discussion some scholar in the Old World could be in. and it would certainly upset the elves... the difference between High and Dark Elves specially.

anyway, I don't think race distinction should be the only thing differentiating characteristics. culture has A LOT of influence in what we are, even physically. also, I don't think that characteristics are just expressing the physical aspect of characters...

jackdays said:

You are partially right. The Asur (high elves) can be considered the "baseline" elves in the Warhammer world. However, the Asrai (wood elves) and Asur have already been shown to have different starting attributes and racial abilities in WHFRP3E. IIRC while never an official starting race in 1E and 2E, there was a 1E supplement that suggested that starting attributes would vary in that edition as well. Yes, these differences are partially due to culture and upbringing, but the implication is that there is more going on.

While the Asur are the oldest elven culture in Warhammer, and gave rise to both the Asrai and the Druchii (dark elves), both subraces have rejected the traditional culture of their people and have not only developed completely different traditions, but have also bound themselves to different gods and religions for thousands of years, and developed their own styles of magic as part of this adaptation. In elven cultures there is no arcane/divine magic split as there is among humans; rather their mages, sorcerers, and treesingers all realize that such distinctions are false, and as such any worker of magic is also a representative of their respective subrace's gods. I would theorize that as one of the most magically adept (and thus sensitive) races in Warhammer, this has resulted in a sort of feedback loop that has accelerated the differences between the different races of elf - a "you are what you think" effect taken to an extreme. This has also resulted in the variations in dominant hair and eye coloration and complexion seen between the three races.

In this interpretation, there would be little physical difference between the Sea Elves and Asur, for several reasons. First, the two cultures are still tied very closely together, with most Sea Elves coming from the city of Lothern in Ulthuan. There is very little reason why an Asur could not drift back and forth between the two cultures. Second, unlike the other two elven offshoots, while the Sea Elves venerate Mathlann, there has not been the wholesale rejection of the rest of the elven pantheon seen among the Asrai and Druchii (specifically the roles of Asuryan and Isha as the leaders of the pantheon). Finally, the Sea Elves still subject themselves to the authority of the current Phoenix King, Finubar the Seafarer, who likely spent time as a Sea Elf himself judging from his epithet, and who has encouraged trade and contact with the humans of the Old World for centuries now. Thus, the Sea Elves can be considered more of a subculture of Asur than a true offshoot of the elven race such as the Asrai or the Druchii.

Haggard:

here stands an educated person. :]

thanks for all the info!

Haggard said:

Well, first thing you would have to do would be to define what is a 'race' - what makes an elf a member of a different race as opposed to a different culture.

As for the thousands of years of separation, remember that that would be only a handful of generations to the elves. Even with the mutating influence of magic I don't think it would have much of an impact. Any differences between the elves can be put down to cultural rather than racial. Take a Wood Elf baby, raise him in Ulthuan and he'll have High Elf stats rather than Wood Elf. Likewise a Dark Elf. The differences between the High Elves of Chrace and those of Lothern are probably as pronounced as the differences between the elves of Lothern and Athel Loren... and purely cultural.

In terms of stats, bear in mind that Reikland humans and other humans will have different skills and possibly even statistics. Part of this depends on upbringing. The elf races have different stats built off the same racial potential, but biased toward what they do a lot of

macd21 said:

Admittedly, in my post I did use "race" and "culture" interchangeably, but that is because a) the elves in Warhammer themselves seem to do so, and b) I'm not entirely sure they can be fully separated in this instance. Strictly speaking they would probably be

Thousands of years can be a handful of generations, or dozens to hundreds, depending on the individual bloodline under discussion. IIRC WH elves reach physical maturity in about 20-25 years (developing only slightly slower than humans) but usually aren't considered adults until they are close to a century in age. While reproductive rates are low, the time in which a given elf is fertile is extremely extended. However, it is probably safe to say that the Asur probably have the longest length of "average generation" since Ulthuan is a relatively safe area. Asrai would be next in line since they face constant conflict with Beastmen in particular and many of their neighbors in general. The very nature of Druchii society demands a high turnover; despite this they have still managed to populate much of Naggaroth, and so likely have a "generation" that is significantly shorter than the other elven races.

In addition to cultural magical factors, there are environmental ones as well. All of the elven races develop in areas saturated by magic, but the nature of those magics is wildly different. Ulthuan is the focal point for magic exiting the Warhammer world, since the majority of the Winds emanating from the two Chaos Gates ultimately cycles through Ulthuan and out via the Vortex at Ulthuan's geographic center. This implies that Asur are constantly exposed to all eight winds, in their "healthiest" form - constantly "fresh," well balanced, and constantly moving.

At the other end of the spectrum we have the Druchii. Naggaroth is infamous for having numerous magical "dead ends" where the winds stagnate and eventually coalesce into Dhar, solidified dark magic that is incredibly dangerous to have direct contact with. The Druchii actually encourage the production of Dhar in Naggaroth, as it is the power their sorcerers draw upon, including Malektih himself and his mother. IIRC Dhar is not the mutagenic that Warpstone is, but still has a strong effect on both the surrounding environment and any creatures unfortunate enough to be exposed to it.

Athel Loren, on the other hand, is both strongly saturated in the Jade and Amber Winds, and it has been strongly implied that it has its own form of magic thrown into the mix for good measure, magic that can engender physical changes in its adherents. I don't have my Wood Elf army book with me, but I got the impression that many of the Asrai kiths or tribes are not considered entirely elven even by the other Asrai.

Because of these strong environmental factors I'm still not convinced that the differences between the three elven races are entirely cultural, and would certainly dispute that the differences are purely cultural as you state.

One other indicator is how the high elves refer to themselves. You make the point that the cultural differences between Chrace and Lothern are likely as pronounced as the cultural differences between Lothern and the elves of Athel Loren. It's certainly true that the shadow warriors of Naggarythe still have more in common with the Druchii than many of the other elves of Ulthuan are comfortable with. However, the elves of Chrace, Lothern, Naggarythe, and the other provinces of Ulthuan would all still agree that they are Asur, and the elves of Athel Loren are Asrai. This implies that there are factors other than the purely cultural at work.

Another indication that the differences run deeper than culture is the Asur attitude towards their raids on the Druchii. The Asur are a dwindling people, whereas in many ways the Druchii are thriving, particularly in their ability to colonize most of Naggaroth. It has to have occurred to them during their long war with their cousins that they could focus efforts on capturing Druchii infants and children and raising them as Asur to help replenish their losses. The fact that they have never tried to do so could indicate that generations of exposure to Dhar and the blood rites of Khaine has made this too dangerous an endeavor to even attempt.

Pedro Lunaris said:

/bow, Thanks! Keep in mind though that a lot of what I have written is my personal interpretation of GW's lore. I've tried to support my theories with examples and established lore as much as possible, but that doesn't make my take on the elves in Warhammer any more valid than anyone else's.

Haggard said:

How the elves refer to themselves is hardly relevant. I consider myself Irish because I was born and raised in Ireland. If I had been born and raised in New York I would call myself American. The names can (and IMO) are purely cultural. There is also the fact that even if the elves consider themselves to be of different races doesn't mean that they are. Elves are extremely arrogant and each culture likes to consider itself the 'true' elves, superior to the others. I think each would prefer to think of the others as inherently different (and inferior).

The Druchii may be thriving, but again that can be explained by cultural differences, not to mention the benefit of having slaves to do all your work for you. As for why the Asur don't capture Druchii children to raise as Asur, that may simply be down to the fact that a) it would never occur to them to kidnap children or b) they've never had the opportunity - the Asur have rarely ever launched attacks against Naggaroth and all efforts to do so have ended in disastrous failure. It's not really a workable strategy - launch a raid against the Dark Elves with 100 men, lose 50 of them and kidnap 10 children... On the other hand, if they were to capture a Druchii child, I imagine they would adopt him and raise him as an Asur.

As for magic speeding up the development of biological differences, I don't see that happening either. Elves are an amazingly static race, apparently highly resistant to mutation (or change of any kind). I don't think magic results in gradual, stable changes like the ones you describe. If the elves were susceptible to such changes I think you'd see mutations, not stable genetic alterations.

Finally, there's the fact that there simply isn't any evidence of racial variation between the three lines. Take three elves of different lines and swap their clothes around and you probably won't be able to tell which one is Asur, Asrai or Druchii. [spoiler - ELFSLAYER] In the novel Elfslayer they do just that. An Asur is forced to disguise himself as a Druchii guard in order to escape.

It might be worth pointing out that all Warhammer elves were originally Ulthuan elves.

When the elves retreated back to ulthuan after the war against chaos, those left behind became the wood elves and the rift caused by malekith 'created' the dark elves - he himself was once a high ranking high elf.

So whilst they have developed their own cultural tendencies they are all essentially brewed from the same hops.