Thank you very much for these statistics which pretty much confirm my issues with the meta at the moment. I said it in another thread already, the Strategic Advisor needs to be burned away from the game. We have as imperials almost no wiggle room outside of ISD's for Listbuilding in competitive play. As you already said, our medium Ships are dead in the Water because of the ISD & SA combo. It's such a shame. We are in a weird spot where the meta is balanced but not in a necessarly good way.

4 hours ago, Tokra said:

• Yavaris is still a broken title. And even with the relay nerf it is still a really dangerous ship.
• Imperials have no real medium ship. The Interdictor is to expensive (especially when you want to upgrade him), the VSD either to expensive (honestly, 85 points is really alot) or to close range (not to mention the low speed), the Quasar to special (only a squishy carrier).

Just wanna emphasize this.

100% agree!

Accidental double post. ?

Leia and Madine were used but no one took Sato! Seriously Germany!

16 hours ago, Tokra said:

Just a few more statistics from my notes:

48 player but I have only 47 lists (must have missed one of the bye in the first round).

22 Rebels ; 25 Imperials .

Admirals:

Rebel Admirals:

7x Ackbar
5x Raddus
4x Dodonna
4x Rieekan
1x Leia
1x Madine

Not played: Sato, Iblis, Cracken, Mothma

Imperial Admirals:
7x Motti
6x Sloane
3x Vader
3x Jerjerod
3x Screed
2x Thrawn
1x Ozzel

Not played:

Konstantine, Tage, Tarkin

Really sad to see, that there are just some admirals this bad that no one want to touch them. Tarkin and Tage are, from my observation, really an uncommon sight.

Ship Count:

Good part first. All ships were played.

Rebel Ships:
Transport: 36 (average of 1,5 per player)
Hammerhead: 14
CR90: 11
Yavaris: 8 (yes, all Nebulon-B were Yavaris)
MC75: 8

Mark II: 8 (Germany, the land of the potato ? )

MC80_H: 7

MC80_L: 3

Pelta: 3

MC30: 3 (yes, only 3. I was shocked when I saw this)

Imperial ships:
ISD: 28
Gozanti: 32 (average of 1,28 per player)
GSD: 13 (way more than I was expecting, and not all were Demolisher)
Raider: 10
Arquitens: 8
Quasar: 3
VSD: 3
Interdictor: 1

Squadrons:
I have only checked how many squadron lists were there. Not an exact number. I just checked if they have 100+ points and more than 6 squadrons. This was what i count as squadron lists.
There were 12 Rebel Squadron lists and 14 Imperial Squadron lists.
With 8 Yavaris (who were, most likely, playing squadrons) it leaves 4 squadron lists without a Yavaris as support. At least 2 lists were YT-2400 (or other rogues).
The 6 Sloane lists were all squadron lists as well. This leaves 8 squadron lists with other admirals. At least one of them the Imperial Rogues from Oliver from the final.

Strategic Adviser and activations:

Rebels:
3 ships: 2 lists without a SA
4 ships: 4 lists without a SA; 7 lists with SA
5 ships: 3 lists without a SA; 1 lists with SA
6 ships: 5 lists without a SA

With only large ships can use the SA, and removing the Raddus lists, it leave 13 large ships. If I remember right there have been 1-2 lists with two large ships and Raddus. Lets say 11 large ships left. 8 of these used a SA.

This gives the rebels an average ship number of 4,59 and an average activation number of 4,91 .
This is exactly where I was expecting it, when I decided to take a list with 5 activations.

Imperial:
3 ships: 4 lists without a SA; 7 lists with SA
4 ships: 1 list without a SA; 7 lists with SA
5 ships: 1 list without a SA; 2 lists with SA
6 ships: 2 lists without a SA; 1 list with SA

Yes, we had one list with 6 ships and the SA. It means: ISD + 3x Raider + 2x Gozanti. And yes, we had only one Interdictor.
There was only list without an ISD. This means 24 list had at least one ISD. There were 28 so there have been 4 lists that used a double ISD.
24 lists with at least one large ship and only 17 SA. I was expecting more.

This gives the imperials an average ship number of 3,92 and an average activation number of 4,6 .
About them same that I was expecting. But was the right call, with the fear that my Sloane list with 4 activations will be in trouble. Funny that there were two lists with only 4 activations in the cut (this was something I was not expecting).

Combined: Average ship number: 4,23 ; average activation number of 4,74 .

What can we see and learn from these numbers (at least for the german meta)?

• The Hammerhead is the new transport. Player are using this ship, the cheapest non flotilla, as transport replacement to buy activations. I am not sure anymore, but if I remember right they were mostly in the MSU lists as swarm.
• The ISD is the best ship for the imperials. This is mostly because of the Strategic Adviser. There is only one large ship for the Imperials. And for 114-124 you get 2 activations and quite good damage and tank. There is no other way to get 2 ships for this price with equal value. The only drawback is the loss of the officer slot. And this is really hard.
  But after all. 2x ISD with one SA + 2x Gozanti is a really dangerous combination.
• Yavaris is still a broken title. And even with the relay nerf it is still a really dangerous ship.
• Imperials have no real medium ship. The Interdictor is to expensive (especially when you want to upgrade him), the VSD either to expensive (honestly, 85 points is really alot) or to close range (not to mention the low speed), the Quasar to special (only a squishy carrier).
• On the other hand, rebels have only one medium ship. But this one was played more than all medium imperial ships together (with less players).

Good summary.

The correct nerf to Yavaris is an exhaust that lets you affect ONE squadron.

This is about right for 5 points (adar is 10 for a better effect). You could still use it, with Adar, for precision surgery.

13 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Good summary.

The correct nerf to Yavaris is an exhaust that lets you affect ONE squadron.

This is about right for 5 points (adar is 10 for a better effect). You could still use it, with Adar, for precision surgery.

"We dont win the war by killing what we hate, but..." - a bad star wars character. Any more nerf really kills yavaris, and with it a complete archetype. It might have dominated the big tourneys, but surely a nerf isnt a solution. (The number of rebel bomber fleets without yavaris is low). We rather need a keyword disabling bomber keyword within range x, so there has to be a proper fighter vs fighter action before bombing runs.

10 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

"We dont win the war by killing what we hate, but..." - a bad star wars character. Any more nerf really kills yavaris, and with it a complete archetype. It might have dominated the big tourneys, but surely a nerf isnt a solution. (The number of rebel bomber fleets without yavaris is low). We rather need a keyword disabling bomber keyword within range x, so there has to be a proper fighter vs fighter action before bombing runs.

So u feel that a general nerf to bombers is less invasive than capping Yavaris at 1?

Yavaris, who has consistently over performed (like Demo and Rhymer) since w1? Yavaris, who is very often the sole reason a Neb ever sees table time (again, much like Demo).

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Good summary.

The correct nerf to Yavaris is an exhaust that lets you affect ONE squadron.

This is about right for 5 points (adar is 10 for a better effect). You could still use it, with Adar, for precision surgery.

But curiously Yavaris didn't feature so much in UK Nationals or NOVA. The only meta that all three regions have in common right now is Strategic Advisor!

3 minutes ago, Zamalekite said:

But curiously Yavaris didn't feature so much in UK Nationals or NOVA. The only meta that all three regions have in common right now is Strategic Advisor!

But the UK crowd is... weird

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Good   summary. 

The correct nerf to Yavaris is an exhaust that lets you affect ONE squadron.

This is about right for 5 points (adar is 10 for a better effect). You could still use it, with Adar, for precision surgery. 

I really hope they do something like this. It would also fit in their scheme of FAQing stuff (Avenger etc.). The Crippling of FCT on Neb was not what fixed Yavaris. How would you feel about allowing movement during the Nebulon's activation (thus making FCT an option again) and have Yavaris be a 1 Squadron exhaust ability?

8 minutes ago, Zamalekite said:

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

is is about right for 5 points (adar is 10 for a better effect). You could still use it, with Adar, for precision surgery.

But curiously Yavaris didn't feature so much in UK Nationals or NOVA. The only meta that all three regions have in common right now is Strategic Advisor!

Well, and those stupid triangles for the Imperium

2 minutes ago, RealVeers said:

Well, and those stupid triangles for the Imperium

As has been noted above, the fact that there are now so many ISDs at the expense of Medium-sized Imperial ships is largely down to the preponderance of SA.

A knock-on effect of that, at least in the UK, is that there seems to be less Yavaris in play. Perhaps in part due to the flimsy nature of the NebB, especially when you have to dodge getting caught in the main arc of TWO large ships which are now so much more common with SA.

48 minutes ago, Zamalekite said:

As has been noted above, the fact that there are now so many ISDs at the expense of Medium-sized Imperial ships is largely down to the preponderance of SA.

A knock-on effect of that, at least in the UK, is that there seems to be less Yavaris in play. Perhaps in part due to the flimsy nature of the NebB, especially when you have to dodge getting caught in the main arc of TWO large ships which are now so much more common with SA.

If u are using SAdv you're probably not using Pryce. So you're doing something wrong!

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

So u feel that a general nerf to bombers is less invasive than capping Yavaris at 1?

Yavaris, who has consistently over performed (like Demo and Rhymer) since w1? Yavaris, who is very often the sole reason a Neb ever sees table time (again, much like Demo).

So, with your nerf its 2 less yavaris-ed squad, taking away potentially roughly 2x 2-2,2 dmg against ships(talking about bcc-toryn bwings or gold squadron), and 2x 2,25 dmg against squads(4blue+toryn). My suggestion means no punishment in squad vs squad, 0.21 dmg reduction on blue die dmg output(just toryn) and 0.5 reduction on black. Meaning one has to take 6 b-wings(or 3 double tapped) to lose that much dmg what your nerf would mean. And I did not harm the squad on squad game.

Just now, Coldhands said:

So, with your nerf its 2 less yavaris-ed squad, taking away potentially roughly 2x 2-2,2 dmg against ships(talking about bcc-toryn bwings or gold squadron), and 2x 2,25 dmg against squads(4blue+toryn). My suggestion means no punishment in squad vs squad, 0.21 dmg reduction on blue die dmg output(just toryn) and 0.5 reduction on black. Meaning one has to take 6 b-wings(or 3 double tapped) to lose that much dmg what your nerf would mean. And I did not harm the squad on squad game.

But bomber has uses beyond just Yavaris. This does not make Hagar is less attractive. It makes bombers less attractive.

45 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

But bomber has uses beyond just Yavaris. This does not make Hagar is less attractive. It makes bombers less attractive.

No, it makes high risk-high reward, rather than being the most reliable dmg source. A pair of Tycho-Sara or Valen-Ciena is usually ignored with intel. So, in reality your first couple of squadrons will have to get rid of these, so your yavaris activations can do ships normally. So, just a couple of dmg prevented, but that might save your large ship.

6 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Good summary.

The correct nerf to Yavaris is an exhaust that lets you affect ONE squadron.

This is about right for 5 points (adar is 10 for a better effect). You could still use it, with Adar, for precision surgery.

What? That's not a good nerf at all, it just kicks Yavaris off the table.

39 minutes ago, geek19 said:

What? That's not a good nerf at all, it just kicks Yavaris off the table.

You mean like Rhymer was kicked off the table?

27 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

You mean like Rhymer was kicked off the table?

So sad but truth.

But for Rhymer it was necessary because of upcoming cards (Sloane). And don't forget one part, Rhymer is a squadron that has to be paid by squadron points. Yavaris is a ship that is boosting squadrons, but the points come from the ship pool. Rhymer has always the drawback that you are loosing something else when you want to use him. You weaken your anti squadron fight with him.

This is the biggest Problem with the rebel squadrons right now is that their best boosts are coming from ships (Yavaris, Talon)
The only Imperial boost is coming from the Admiral (a great one, but also an expensive one).
Flight Controller are possible for both, but Imperials have an easier access to this card.

The second part with Rhymer is, that Imperials have the synergy. The squadrons build up on each other (Swarm, Howlrunner, Dengar, ...). If you take out one of the gears you are weakening the rest.
This is not really the case with rebels. These squadrons can work all on their own, their combination is, once again, coming from the ships. It does not matter if Dutch, Ten, Corran, Luke or even Gold Squad are attacking twice with Tallon. They all hurt when they do it. it only depend if it is going against ships (Luke, B-Wing, Gold Squad) or against squadrons (Ten, Corran, Dutch). The key against the rebels is to take out the ships. But this is easier said than done ?

10 hours ago, Green Knight said:

But the UK crowd is... weird

And extremely proud of it.

God save our gracious queen!

10 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

And extremely proud of it.

God save our gracious queen!

But who will save the Governor-General?

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

But who will save the Governor-General?

The NHS

4 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

But who will save the Governor-General?

"Well may we say, "God save the Queen"" (assorted boos)

"Because nothing will save the Governor-General!"

(assorted cheers)

Anyway - it is interesting to see the various meta(s) between UK, Germany, and the USA. Strange how we play the same game but end up in different places.

And then there's the international forum of Vassal - where two ship Squall lists are dominating...

@LTD - Glad someone got the reference ?

The greatest day in Australian History - the death of Socialism.

On 9/5/2018 at 3:57 PM, Tokra said:

So sad but truth.

But for Rhymer it was necessary because of upcoming cards (Sloane). And don't forget one part, Rhymer is a squadron that has to be paid by squadron points. Yavaris is a ship that is boosting squadrons, but the points come from the ship pool. Rhymer has always the drawback that you are loosing something else when you want to use him. You weaken your anti squadron fight with him.

This is the biggest Problem with the rebel squadrons right now is that their best boosts are coming from ships (Yavaris, Talon)
The only Imperial boost is coming from the Admiral (a great one, but also an expensive one).
Flight Controller are possible for both, but Imperials have an easier access to this card.

The second part with Rhymer is, that Imperials have the synergy. The squadrons build up on each other (Swarm, Howlrunner, Dengar, ...). If you take out one of the gears you are weakening the rest.
This is not really the case with rebels. These squadrons can work all on their own, their combination is, once again, coming from the ships. It does not matter if Dutch, Ten, Corran, Luke or even Gold Squad are attacking twice with Tallon. They all hurt when they do it. it only depend if it is going against ships (Luke, B-Wing, Gold Squad) or against squadrons (Ten, Corran, Dutch). The key against the rebels is to take out the ships. But this is easier said than done ?

I wish Rhymer was restricted to bombers, not the range reduced. But I think this was discussed already.