The Comprehend Technology Talent on guardian, you have to make a Knowledge Education check..... Guardians don't get Knowledge Education as a class skill, how have people handled it. It doesn't seem right to pay 20 exp for the talent and then have to buy a non class skill. Thinking of just letting them use another class skill, or just making it a class skill. How have you guys been handling it.?

Few things to consider:

1.) The talent originally appeared in the Core Book under the Artisan spec, which does have Knowledge Education

2.) This talent works best once you have a few force rating increases, so a player can be strategic about if/when they purchase it. It is not unusual to pick up a another spec or two as a character progresses, and the player can always lean towards one that has Knowledge Education as a class skill, or play a race that has it as a class skill at the outset.

3.) It is not the end of the world to spend 5 extra XP on a skill rank

4.) It is 2 purple check base, so even with just base 4 green dice for a 4 Intellect (not a bad choice for an Armorer), they will still succeed more than they fail

All in all, I wouldn't change anything. It is nothing that is imbalanced.

20 hours ago, Peregrinefalcon007 said:

It doesn't seem right to pay 20 exp for the talent and then have to buy a non class skill.

People make too big a deal over class skills. But if they really want Knowledge Education as a class skill, buy into another spec that has it. The break-even point is 4 skill ranks for career specs, and 6 for non-career specs. If the spec has all new skills that the PC will develop (never mind the talents that come with it), it's an easy fix.

I didn't think it was a big deal but the player is making a big deal about it. It's his second spec and he told me he couldn't find any other talent in the game that requires a skill check of a non class skill. Seems like something they overlooked when creating the new spec.

Padawan Survivor has multiple talents that require skills it does not provide including Lore, Streetwise, Stealth, Skullduggery, vigilance, charm, deception etc...

Imperial Academy Graduate has known schematic and no knowledge education, but a lot of talents that make knowledge rolls easier...

There are likely more...

15 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Padawan Survivor has multiple talents that require skills it does not provide including Lore, Streetwise, Stealth, Skullduggery, vigilance, charm, deception etc...

Imperial Academy Graduate has known schematic and no knowledge education, but a lot of talents that make knowledge rolls easier...

There are likely more...

Commodore has 3 ranks of Solid Repairs but does not have Mechanics as a class skill.

Ascetic has Slippery Minded but does not have Deception as a class skill (nor does a high Cunning lend itself well to the spec)

I am sure the list could go on and on

38 minutes ago, Peregrinefalcon007 said:

I didn't think it was a big deal but the player is making a big deal about it. It's his second spec and he told me he couldn't find any other talent in the game that requires a skill check of a non class skill. Seems like something they overlooked when creating the new spec.

House rule K(Education) in as a career skill in the place of K(Outer Rim). It's that easy if you want it to be.

5 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Commodore has 3 ranks of Solid Repairs but does not have Mechanics as a class skill.

Ah, but Commodore doesn't really do anything well on its own.

11 hours ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Commodore has 3 ranks of Solid Repairs but does not have Mechanics as a class skill.

Ascetic has Slippery Minded but does not have Deception as a class skill (nor does a high Cunning lend itself well to the spec)

I am sure the list could go on and on

Marshal has hard headed but not the skill to use it.

Since I got bored:

• Imperial Academy Cadet has Know Schematic but lacks Knowledge (Education).
• Politico does not have Leadership (but Colonist does--still, not all Politicos are Colonists) which is needed for Inspiring Rhetoric.
• Scout lacks Knowledge (Outer Rim) which is needed for Familiar Suns (assuming you actually waste the XP to buy it). K(OR) is found in Explorer, but not Spy.
• Bodyguards that buy in from outside of Hired Gun might lack the Discipline needed for Hard Headed.
• Mechanics lack Discipline which is needed for Hard Headed. Discipline is found in Technician, but not Engineer.
• Retired Clone Trooper lacks Knowledge (Outer Rim) which is needed for Familiar Suns (assuming you actually waste the XP to buy it).
• Squadron Leader lacks Leadership which is needed for Field Commander. It's in Commander, but this will come up if you'e an Ace picking it up later.
• Ambassador does not have Leadership (but Diplomat does--still, not all Ambassadors are Diplomats) which is needed for Inspiring Rhetoric.
• Saboteur lacks Discipline which is needed for Hard Headed.
• Sapper has Know Schematic but lacks Knowledge (Education). It is available from Engineer, but Sapper works rather well as a secondary spec for Soldier.
• Courier has Lose Them but lacks Stealth. Spy has Stealth, but this won't help a Pilot that cross-trains in from Ace.

OK. Now even more bored. I'm sure the FaD specs have similar occurrences.

Armourer not having Knowledge (Education) isn't the end of the world.

Odds are good the PC's going to have a 3 in Intellect, which already makes overcoming an Average difficulty fairly easy already (might be a bit of threat on occasion, but nothing too hazardous). Buying a rank or two as a non-career skill is quite trivial, as with two ranks (which only costs an extra 10XP and is itself a trivial cost), making overcoming that Average difficulty with no negative consequences even easier. Unless you're being incredibly stingy with handing out XP, buying those two skill ranks for a grand sum of 25XP is easy to accomplish after two sessions (assuming an average award of 15XP per session).

Frankly, your player is trying to make a mountain out of an ant hill.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Frankly  ,  your player is trying to make a mountain out of an ant hill. 

Yuppers.

I've known plenty of players that even 1xp spent that wasn't optimized is akin to heresy. Spending an extra 10 on skills that they could put to use for other things would make them twitch.

57 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

I've known plenty of players that even 1xp spent that wasn't optimized is akin to heresy. Spending an extra 10 on skills that they could put to use for other things would make them twitch.

To be frank, I loathe the "must totally optimize my character!" crowd. These are the folks that have a tendency to suck the fun out of games, as heavens forbid the other players in the group allow their PCs to develop naturally. Or worse, that even the slightest deviation from their path of 1st level nobody to 20th level superstar would occur, even if the events of the game suggest that an alternate path of development would be more appropriate.

That crowd of folks were one if (many) reasons I've lost my taste for the d20 system in general, to the point there's very, very few d20-based games that I'll willingly play.

6 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

To be frank, I loathe the "must totally optimize my character!" crowd. These are the folks that have a tendency to suck the fun out of games, as heavens forbid the other players in the group allow their PCs to develop naturally.

I think that folks with an intolerance for the playing styles of others are far more likely to suck the fun out of things. Heaven forbid each be allowed to enjoy the game in their own way.

24 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I think that folks with an intolerance for the playing styles of others are far more likely to suck the fun out of things. Heaven forbid each be allowed to enjoy the game in their own way.

Hey, if that crowds want to over-think their characters, that's fine. Problem is they rarely (if ever) stop at just their characters, and try to get everyone else to buy into the same fallacy of that optimized characters = winning the game, and thus ruining other folks' fun.

I know that's a fine distinction that's likely sailed right over your head, but there it is.

43 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I know that's a fine distinction that's likely sailed right over your head, but there it is.

Just keep sucking the fun away, DM!

4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Hey, if that crowds want to over-think their characters, that's fine. Problem is they rarely (if ever) stop at just their characters, and try to get everyone else to buy into the same fallacy of that optimized characters = winning the game, and thus ruining other folks' f  un.

I know that's a fine distinction that's likely sailed right over your head, but the  re it is.

We have one of those in our current group. Completely min-maxes his character and tries to min-max everything during game play to the point of getting angry at others in the group if we pick a less than optimal path or someone without the best skill rolls for a check. It's come close to breaking up the game several times. If it wasn't a game-club game he would have been uninvited long ago. Completely sucks the fun out of the game.

3 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

*blatant attempt at antagonizing a poster for no reason than to be antagonistic*

I know you're just trying to bait me into attacking you so you can go running to the mods and play the innocent victim, when you're the actively antagonizing people. And as I refuse to stoop to your level, you can either post on topic or go deliberately antagonize someone else.

1 hour ago, Ahrimon said:

We have one of those in our current group. Completely min-maxes his character and tries to min-max everything during game play to the point of getting angry at others in the group if we pick a less than optimal path or someone without the best skill rolls for a check. It's come close to breaking up the game several times. If it wasn't a game-club game he would have been uninvited long ago. Completely sucks the fun out of the game.

While that example is certainly one extreme that would be annoying, the opposite approach can be equally annoying. What I mean is the player that makes significantly sub-optimal choices in character development and gear to the point of being ineffective or considerably less so than the rest of the group. These are the characters that every player in the group realizes have no business being in the PC party, but they are 'stuck with them' just because they are PCs. These characters not only don't pull their own weight, they can even drain group resources or--in extreme cases--reduce the effectiveness of others in the group. This gets even worse if the issues go beyond mechanics and the offending character is something that is disruptive to group unity (like, say, a witch in a WFRP game with a party of zealous Sigmarites).

7 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

What I mean is the player that makes significantly sub-optimal choices in character development and gear to the point of being ineffective or considerably less so than the rest of the group.

Ineffective at... roleplaying?

9 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Ineffective at... roleplaying?

There are unfortunately a good number of people that approach roleplaying games as a life and death (of the character) competition games and have to "win". Anything less than peak efficiency and you are a liability to the group or more often, to that player. I've seen the mentality in MMOs a lot more than I've ever see it at the table. But unfortunately it's present at the table too.

16 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

While that example is certainly one extreme that would be annoying, the opposite approach can be equally annoying. What I mean is the player that makes significantly sub-optimal choices in character development and gear to the point of being ineffective or considerably less so than the rest of the group. These are the characters that every player in the group realizes have no business being in the PC party, but they are 'stuck with them' just because they are PCs. These characters not only don't pull their own weight, they can even drain group resources or--in extreme cases--reduce the effectiveness of others in the group. This gets even worse if the issues go beyond mechanics and the offending character is something that is disruptive to group unity (like, say, a witch in a WFRP game with a party of zealous Sigmarites).

It's a spectrum. And both extreme ends can have a place in the right game, most games lie somewhere in-between. IMO though the "sub-optimal" character will end up more like a jack of all trades and will still be able to contribute in most games. Whereas the hyper-optimized will be dead weight more often than not in the average game.

9 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

There are unfortunately a good number of people that approach roleplaying games as a life and death (of the character) competition games and have to "win". Anything less than peak efficiency and you are a liability to the group or more often, to that player. I've seen the mentality in MMOs a lot more than I've ever see it at the table. But unfortunately it's present at the table too.

You ever see somebody play a Soldier (Medic) and decide that they are a pacifist that won't carry a weapon? Oh, yeah... like in Hacksaw Ridge , sure... except that this character also refused to use drugs of any sort, so no stimpacks for his patients and he wouldn't take the Stim Application talents either. He planned on going Force-Sensitive Emergent and then into Healer to become a faith healer, but the group of characters dumped him well before that was going to happen because he was largely dead weight for several sessions and was probably going to stay that way for many more. The player of the Soldier (Medic) made up a new character that actually contributed to the group's successes and all were happier.

12 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

It's a spectrum. And both extreme ends can have a place in the right game, most games lie somewhere in-between. IMO though the "sub-optimal" character will end up more like a jack of all trades and will still be able to contribute in most games. Whereas the hyper-optimized will be dead weight more often than not in the average game.

Not every group will keep Jar Jar Binks around. Many of them will dump his sorry butt the first chance they get. The galaxy might be better for it too.