6 hours ago, The captn said:

Ive gotten so use to confirming range/arc with my opponent in xwing its become second nature. If you have to cheat to win its not a win.

Unfortunately some games are getting big enough where prize support and other factors are skewing what gets played and why. X-Wing European Championship for example have been awarding trips including room and board to Minneapolis for worlds. You or I may note that Minneapolis is hardly the greatest American vacation hotspot, but a flight plus hotel is still worth hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

2 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Unfortunately some games are getting big enough where prize support and other factors are skewing what gets played and why. X-Wing European Championship for example have been awarding trips including room and board to Minneapolis for worlds. You or I may note that Minneapolis is hardly the greatest American vacation hotspot, but a flight plus hotel is still worth hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

Armada gets that too.

On 8/30/2018 at 5:40 AM, ISD Avenger said:

It’s a game. If anyone really feels the need to cheat that’s just sad. I pity them.

This is of course true, it's pitiful that anyone would cheat.

However, to say that all we can do is "pity them" is a piss poor solution. Plenty of people in Armada spend 100s of dollars on tournaments. Between buying their actual fleets, taking time off work, and arranging all of the travel and board to do a tournament, it is not an insignificant investment. No one sane would invest that amount of time or resources or energy into an Armada tournament if they knew people there going to cheat and not be penalized for it. Competitive gaming requires a completely fair playing field.

Of course, we might say that "well the Armada community is so great and no one in it would cheat" but that would be naive. Sadly, there are those pathetic dregs of society whose ego is so tied up in how they perform at competition that they will cheat, as we've seen many many times in all avenues of human competition (one can easily find confirmed instances of cheating in sports ranging from the Olympics all the way down to Pee Wee sports). In gaming, there have been plenty of cases of confirmed cheaters in X-Wing caught on filmed streams cheating -- which is to say nothing of the thousands of other instances off stream that were not caught. An FFG North American Champion at the 40K Conquest CCG was drawing extra cards on stream. Magic's ProTour has had dozens of confirmed cheaters eventually caught. There have undoubtedly been and undoubtedly will be cheating in Armada, because selfish people with frail egos exist.

****, I got cheated out of a game at the North American Championships last year at Gencon when, in Round 6, my opponent hovered his maneuver stick over his ship's base and quickly picked it up and slapped it down into it's new spot before I could protest what he was doing, and the ship juuuuuust fit between his ship, two of my ships, and the board edge. This ship had a single hull point left, so any ship-bump or board edge collision would have killed it, and I had been playing the past round as if that ship would die, because either it would activate first with no where to go and would kill itself, or I would kill it with my ship. I had been playing Armada for four years, and I was 95% sure that ship wouldn't fit anywhere legal as it was totally boxed in (as had been part of my plan). But, since he bull-shitted the move to "just barely not die" it was nearly a 350pt swing in scores...

There are a lot of very easy ways to cheat in Armada, compared to most other games. It is such a big board with so much going on and one person's attention usually be focused on some task, providing lots of opportunity. Also, being a game that rarely draws audiences or ends up on stream (unlike say X-Wing) it's also far easier to find opportunity to cheat.

But perhaps the easiest and most impactful way to cheat is to fudge a maneuver, either by adding an illegal click (I've called people on this a lot , and they always just go "oops, you're right! whoops!" Yea, sure buddy...) OR by exploiting the fudgey nature of the maneuver tool by manipulating the tool to get extra flex or bend out of a maneuver OR by placing the tool into the ship pre-move or the ship into the tool post-move in a way that isn't flush and gives extra rotation to help with arcs on the final placement.

There's nothing much you can do to protect against this other watching your opponent's ship movements like a hawk and asking them to go slowly when they do so.


Of course, all of this just further supports the position that Armada is an amazingly fun casual game but not a great tournament game. Two well-intentioned honest-as-can-be players could be asked to perform the same manuever on the same ship, and will likely end up with final positions that vary by a few millimeters, in a game where we all know a a millimeter can determine whether a shot is in or out and can decide the game.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

****, I got cheated out of a game at the North American Championships last year at Gencon when, in Round 6, my opponent hovered his maneuver stick over his ship's base and quickly picked it up and slapped it down into it's new spot before I could protest what he was doing, and the ship juuuuuust fit between his ship, two of my ships, and the board edge. 

Is hovering the maneuver tool above a ship's base before committing to that ship's movement against the rules (cheating)? I played in a SC last weekend where every single player did this. I didn't think it was against the rules because they never inserted the maneuver tool into the ship's base until they were committed to that move.

3 minutes ago, Admiral Calkins said:

Is hovering the maneuver tool above a ship's base before committing to that ship's movement against the rules (cheating)? I played in a SC last weekend where every single player did this. I didn't think it was against the rules because they never inserted the maneuver tool into the ship's base until they were committed to that move. 

AFAIK it's not illegal. What's illegal in AFFM's post is not locking the base into the tool after you've selected a maneuver. I've had that happen in tournaments but I've never had it happen/allowed it to happen on a move so critical. I don't care how many ships are in the way, we'll deal with it.

Before I started playing in tournaments, I made a topic asking about hovering the maneuver tool when the tool would overlap a ship or squadron. I wasn't questioning whether it was actually in the rules, just wondering why it was allowed.

General consensus seemed to be that it's fine as long as there's communication with the opponent about what you're doing. Since I've played in two tournaments since then, I've found that it works, and generally saves time as opposed to marking the ships' corners every time. Also the people I've played against in tournaments have all been stand-up people who respect rules and sportsmanship.

@AllWingsStandyingBy 's post is one of the saddest I've read in this forum, a situation where someone hovers the tool, takes their ship from A to B quickly without communicating with their opponent about the placement. While I can't find a rule that says you have to tell your opponent what you're doing, it seems like the proper thing to do.

In fact, it sounds like even if the tool is not hovered, cheating can be done b/c of loose maneuver tools. It makes me sad that this is a thing.

58 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

AFAIK it's not illegal. What's illegal in AFFM's post is not locking the base into the tool after you've selected a maneuver. I've had that happen in tournaments but I've never had it happen/allowed it to happen on a move so critical. I don't care how many ships are in the way, we'll deal with it.

This is correct, hovering the tool to estimate is not illegal. At least that's how I'd interpret this:

RRG, p. 9: "The maneuver tool can be placed and adjusted freely during the “Determine Course” step of executing a maneuver to assist in determining a course. A ship is not committed to a course until the guides of the maneuver tool are inserted into the ship’s base."

There is essentially a “don’t be a ****” clause in the tourney regs.

but really I’m pointing out the last line:

Margin of Error

Ships and squadrons are sometimes moved accidentally or placed inexactly during the normal course of the game. A small margin of error is allowed in the position and orientation of ships in these situations so that the pace of the game is not unnecessarily affected. Players should not abuse this margin of error, and they must use the components included with the game to be as accurate as possible. Using excessive force when placing components to intentionally move other components is expressly forbidden. In the event of a dispute, players should call a judge for assistance.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

In the event of a dispute, players should call a judge for assistance.

Here's the big problem, though. In six years of playing in X-Wing and Armada events, I've never seen an FFG judge do something other than say "Okay, well be more careful from now on. And we'll keep a closer eye on you in further rounds." Like... ok, great, but this does nothing to help the player that was just wronged, nor does it have any effect unless a future round opponent of Shady McGee also does notice something and calls a judge, and even then there's no assurance that the judge who answers the call will know/remember that this is Shady McGee who's already been warned.

About three years into tournaments, I just stopped bothering with calling judges for anything other than rules interpretation questions. Even when I'd watch an opponent intentionally fudge a maneuver with sloppy tool placement and inaccurate ship placement to narrowly avoiding parking on an asteroid, all a judge will do if called is just tell the player to "be more careful" and that "they're watching more closely now." Like, gee, great, thanks. ?


Same reason I didn't both calling a judge in my above story. The offending player had already picked up and placed his ship without announcing he was going to and when I protested and said "what the heck?!?! That move was crucial to the outcome of this game, and I don't think you could have fit that legitimately if we would have marked ships and properly used the tool...." and his response was some sheepish "Oh I'm so sorry, you're right, I was just trying to save time because we'd have had to have marked so many ships and it looked really clear to me while I hovered the tool..." The most telling thing was that we had been marking ships to properly resolve moves for the past five rounds, even for moves that were far from crucial. I'm convinced that game was literally stolen from me, and it basically made my 12 hours spent at that event moot because it kept me from placing higher with that huge swing in points (+150ish points for him, -150ish points I would have scored had the ship died, for a roughly 300pt swing in our totals).

I've never had an opponent intentionally cheat (At least, not that I have ever witnessed), but accidents have happened in games, especially in my early ones. Back when I first got into the game, I used to play casually at home with a friend (Not anymore, though). I would play Rebels, he would play Empire. 9/10 games, my opponent won. I first thought it was due to being a bad player on my end, but as I learned more about the game I found it wasn't entirely that case. My opponent was a fan of Avenger / Overload Pulse, and was resolving the critical effect before defense dice were applied. After I corrected him, and the games became more a win 1, lose 1 situation. It started to feel like a fair fight.

What made me quit playing with him, though, was after awhile, he refused to play anything that didn't include something he came up with, or would request that he use Overload Pulse the incorrect way, just so he could win more often.

I agree with @Bertie Wooster about the communication thing. If I ever am planning on doing the hover place, I'll always ask "are you ok with me just hovering." if its ever close to a tight manoeuvre I would use a corner to mark the possible bumped ship and remove it. I think that if ever your opponent doesn't agree with hovering you shouldn't do it and should never quickly do it

Hovering is fine before committing, but it's up to the opponent to allow someone to actually pick the ship up and place it without fully snapping in the tool flat on the board edge. In a critical 'between ships and obstacles' move best to take the time to do it right, and you need the opponent to be okay and in agreement with any "well it looks good from here" calls

1 hour ago, Daht said:

Hovering is fine before committing, but it's up to the opponent to allow someone to actually pick the ship up and place it without fully snapping in the tool flat on the board edge. In a critical 'between ships and obstacles' move best to take the time to do it right, and you need the opponent to be okay and in agreement with any "well it looks good from here" calls

I think we all agree with this ideal scenario. But what happens in a game like mine where the opponent just grabs their ship and places it into a new spot while hovering? There is no "going back" to the now ruined board state. Should that opponent just get a warning to be more careful? Should I get to place that opponent's ship to my liking, within reason (and if so, can I overlap it into something very close by?)? Should the ship be destroyed (as it likely should have been had the maneuver been done right)? Should the opponent get an immediate game loss for ruining the game state to their advantage? If so, do I get an 8pt BYE win? What if I was on my way to a 10pt win assuming that ship died?


The biggest problem with situations like this in FFG games is that even after six years FFG has refused to create Floor Rules , so there is absolutely no consistent standard by which judges can or should resolve these situations. And since, in my six years, I've never seen a judge do something more than basically say 'tsk, tsk, be more careful' while letting whatever tom foolery had already happened stand, there's a real sense in which someone could cheat their *** off during a move, end up in a he-said vs he-said situation, and likely just get a warning from whatever judge gets called over.




PS: Let's not forget how easy it is to cheat during squadron movement. Some people are really sloppy with that movement stick, and I'm pretty sure I've been attacked by squadrons that were well out of engagement range before they activated.

I agree. It should be a Floor Rule that if someone doesn't use proper measure/movement without the opponent's consent, whatever the maneuver was trying should fail.

I don't think the problem is bad in the Armada community, but the game is gimmicky enough to warrant a bit more oversight than FFG usually gives. That said, individual TO's can do that on their own as well.

I've always thought it's a bit silly that the move is locked in once you put the movement tool in the slot but you can put the tool 1 mm away from the slot and it isn't. In reality there's almost no difference.

In tournaments that's the way it is. But in friendly games me and my opponents occasionally weigh up several possible moves by putting the tool down as if we were going to make the move and seeing where the ship would end up. Then we do the same for any possible alternative. As long as the ship doesn't move from its original position during this process I've no problem with it and indeed we will sometimes just look at the end of the measuring tool rather than move the ship.

It's a game between friends using plastic spaceships from a galaxy that doesn't exist. Nothing is at stake, it's just a bit of fun. We even advise each other on what the best move would be from time to time. Of course we all play to win and other than this one exception, which comes up very rarely anyway, we do play the rules as written. I'd rather say "Oh just measure it mate it's a friendly game" rather than beat somebody and leave them feeling bad over a fraction of a millimetre.

I find that this kind of sportsmanship is repaid too. My pal Johnny was sporting enough to admit that my firing arc just caught the side hull zone of his rebel ship on Monday. It was by a hair's breadth and it cost him the game. Full credit to him for playing fair.

It's supposed to be fun, not an exercise in rule bending, pedantry or geometry.

1 hour ago, Bolshevik65 said:

I've always thought it's a bit silly that the move is locked in once you put the movement tool in the slot but you can put the tool 1 mm away from the slot and it isn't. In reality there's almost no difference.

In tournaments that's the way it is. But in friendly games me and my opponents occasionally weigh up several possible moves by putting the tool down as if we were going to make the move and seeing where the ship would end up. Then we do the same for any possible alternative. As long as the ship doesn't move from its original position during this process I've no problem with it and indeed we will sometimes just look at the end of the measuring tool rather than move the ship.

It's a game between friends using plastic spaceships from a galaxy that doesn't exist. Nothing is at stake, it's just a bit of fun. We even advise each other on what the best move would be from time to time. Of course we all play to win and other than this one exception, which comes up very rarely anyway, we do play the rules as written. I'd rather say "Oh just measure it mate it's a friendly game" rather than beat somebody and leave them feeling bad over a fraction of a millimetre.

I find that this kind of sportsmanship is repaid too. My pal Johnny was sporting enough to admit that my firing arc just caught the side hull zone of his rebel ship on Monday. It was by a hair's breadth and it cost him the game. Full credit to him for playing fair.

It's supposed to be fun, not an exercise in rule bending, pedantry or geometry.

You need to be locked into your movement at some point, whether it's when you "lock in" the tool or when you pick up the ship. The current rule introduces some margin of error (though sometimes very small) in movement and creates an opportunity for skill and experience to influence the outcome.

If your opponent has a flexible tool... u can insist on using it. Then proceed to take full advantage of it.

Or ask they you share your own non-bendy tool.

On 9/4/2018 at 6:54 AM, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I think we all agree with this ideal scenario. But what happens in a game like mine where the opponent just grabs their ship and places it into a new spot while hovering? There is no "going back" to the now ruined board state.

There is. Did you pick the ship and estimate the movement without my approval? Yes? Then I pick you ship and estimate his previous position without your approval. Now move properly. ?

Just going to step in here an also mention it's best not to assume your opponent it out to cheat you. Hearing a bit of that tone in this thread and it's not what I've come to know from the Armada community at large.

Everyone makes mistakes, I've made illegal maneuvers before only to realize a couple seconds after the maneuver it was illegal, then I have to apologize take it back and do a legal one, it happens.

1 hour ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

Just going to step in here an also mention it's best not to assume your opponent it out to cheat you. Hearing a bit of that tone in this thread and it's not what I've come to know from the Armada community at large.

Everyone makes mistakes, I've made illegal maneuvers before only to realize a couple seconds after the maneuver it was illegal, then I have to apologize take it back and do a legal one, it happens.

This^^^

6 hours ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

Hearing a bit of that tone in this thread and it's not what I've come to know from the Armada community at large.

Of course cheating is not the modus operandi of the community at large. Of all of FFG's games, it seems to me like Armada has one of the better communities (undoubtedly because it's a small niche game compared to X-Wing or Destiny). People competing at this game generally love this game.

That said, to think that no one cheats or is out to cheat is naive. Even if only 1/50 Armada players are the type that would premeditate cheating or would opportunistically fudge things during a game to their advantage, cheating is still something worth reflecting upon, even briefly. Because all it takes is one cheater to ruin an entire event for many of the people there.

19 hours ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

Just going to step in here an also mention it's best not to assume your opponent it out to cheat you. Hearing a bit of that tone in this thread and it's not what I've come to know from the Armada community at large.

Everyone makes mistakes, I've made illegal maneuvers before only to realize a couple seconds after the maneuver it was illegal, then I have to apologize take it back and do a legal one, it happens.

So you won your world championships cheating? Embarrassing! ?

12 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Because all it takes is one cheater to ruin an entire event for many of the people there.

"Ojos que no ven, corazón que no siente."

TL;DR: No solutions, just musings about cheating and how it might happen without the cheater really intending to cheat.


Definitely assume your opponent is an honest and nice person. Most of the time they will be.

People do have incentive to cheat in a war game like Armada, simply because winning feels nice. And most of us, in reality, probably don't want to be cheated when we play strangers - and I think many people want to play opponents outside our own group of Armada friends, so we are going to play strangers. Therefore the "how do we deal with cheating" seems highly relevant.

When I first played Armada, one of my comments to my friend was "Holy ****, there are so many small nudges and measurings that could be abused". I think this creates some challenges for Armada.
There are lots of behaviors on the continuum of "intentional cheating ----------------------- accident"
I am a new player, but I feel pretty sure, that intentional cheating is really rare. However, people still want to win. So when he accidentally bumps a squadron and puts it back closer to where he wants it...:
- Maybe he thinks you and everyone else would do the same, and doesn't really think about it

- Maybe he legitimately thinks its where it should be, but he (systematically) remembers the situation as more favorable than it was.

- Was the squad positioned a little bit to his advantage or yours? He went with his. Again.

- He misunderstood a rule and you corrected him in a friendly manner, but it put him in a bad situation - now he feels a sliiight tingle of animosity and pressure to get the game going "as it should". Squadron is put back slightly closer to your ship. He doesn't really think about it.

I am not trying to say that people are mischievous, just that the mind is weird and wargaming sometimes brings it out in people. Most people aren't conscious cheaters, but they still wanna win, so if they can cheat in a way that doesn't feel or register as cheating, they might do it, without noticing. In my experience there is NOTHING like boardgaming to bring out the good ol' confirmation bias. I have seen very smart people really believe and argue for rule interpretations that I know they would NEVER believe, did the interpretation not favor the side they coincidentally had.