2 hours ago, Crabbok said:

Yup. As a result, whenever a measurement is CLOSE - I'll verbally ensure that both me and my opponent agree to it, just in case it gets "Bumped" later.

like, "Ok, this MC-30 here is JUST BARELY in close range, right? Do you agree?"

SO then later if he moved some squadrons and they bump it out of close range, I have grounds to move it back.

This is one of the first things I teach new players. Be vocal about what you're doing and verify with your opponent right after ship/squadron movement any relevant ranges and arcs.

I'm a little embarrassed it took me almost 15 years of mini gaming to figure out how much this simple thing helps everyone involved.

2 hours ago, Quadro28 said:

This is one of the first things I teach new players. Be vocal about what you're doing and verify with your opponent right after ship/squadron movement any relevant ranges and arcs. 

Yeah I'd agree with this and what @Crabbok said about agreeing on the state of the board.

The bigger concern than deliberate cheating, which I like to think is pretty rare, is accidental misunderstandings. It's a busy game, there are lots of moving pieces, mistakes can be made. In our games, particularly where squadrons are involved, we've taken to agreeing during the placement what ranges are intended as we go.

Not airtight in terms of tournament settings, but I think it fosters a good atmosphere and makes for a more relaxed game.

I’ve caught a couple of people doing the ol’ Command Stack Shimmy, and both were newer players.

I cannot imagine any experienced player I know doing it.

With suspected cheating in general, I will always call them, but also always give them the benefit of the doubt- it could be a misunderstanding of rules, brainfart, or even me reading too much into it.

It’s very easy to think he is doing something incorrectly deliberately when it disadvantages you!

12 hours ago, Quadro28 said:

This is one of the first things I teach new players. Be vocal about what you're doing and verify with your opponent right after ship/squadron movement any relevant ranges and arcs.

Yeah, this is really good tip. So easy to bump things in this game, or just to put it back slightly different after you adjusted shield or squadron's hull.

First of all I have to say that I never played in a tournament or in any organized competitive game. I got a lot of Armada rounds done but mostly within a very small circle of friends playing Armada a few times in a year - so not a really good background to make statements from.. but: I have one friend who is a real master of strategy in board- and computer games and already beaten me a lot of times in various games like Age of Empires e.g. His "special feature" is that he's always interpreting the rules and "borders" of a game in his own way and making very unpopular decisions just to beat you. Sometimes his brilliance is just a mixture of cheating, rules-discussions, and unpopular or unexpected playing style. Talking about Poker, this guy is half a trolling newbie, half a calculating mastermind - and after all he gets all the chips anyway.

Back to the topic: In Armada, he is doing a kind of cheating I want to hear your opinions about. In every movement, measuring or generally in every situation you touch a miniature he is changing things a bit. I dont know if this is conscious behaviour or just the normal clumsy handling miniatures got on a table. Anyway the outcome is that he nearly always got you in his double arc and nearly always got your ships by a millimeter inside his range. Discussing about that something is in range is a usual part of Armada playing with this guy - therefor I think he is "cheating" in a way that he is moving the miniatures in a very unremarkable way by every single touching process - Especially working with the movement tools gives space for those guys who want to exploit the fact that movement tools can become imprecise over time.

I know its not easy to prove that somebody is doing my described way of "movement and positioning" cheating.. but according to this guy I think he's really doing it.

What do you think?

EDIT: noggin already mentioned this right before me

so what you are saying if we play each other tomorrow, if you dont like my commands, I am cheating.

32 minutes ago, NebulonB said:

so what you are saying if we play each  other tomorrow, if  you dont like my commands, I am cheating.  

That would be crazy and imply that I generally think that all top tier players must cheat. I am sorry if my questions made you think that I suspect all of my opponents of cheating.
I am very well aware that this is in general a delicate topic, but an important one nonetheless. It is easy to misunderstand my question as being salty, excusing own shortcomings or suggesting.
I am not. Actually I look forward to learn a lot in the Tournament tomorrow and would really be happy to play against you.

@Jimbo2142
If he repositions fighters or ships by accidentially touching them it is your right to reposition them again. must be somewhere in the rules or the tournament rules

till tomorrow, then. ?

Apparently, we are 50!!

I had an issue last Saturday during a SC which was easily settled just by speaking up. My opponent couldn't get his ship past my gunline without overlapping and ended up measuring it three times at different speeds and yaws to try to find an opening. On the fourth time, he stated that he thought he could fit it in on a certain angle. I just had to flat out tell him that if it didn't fit the first three times, it wouldn't have fit the fourth unless he had (accidentally) bumped my ships, misplaced his ship, or the movement tool was not flush. He said that made sense and didn't press it after that. If someone is cheating, they will usually back down if you approach them about it that isn't necessarily accusatory (as opposed to a public reveal that will likely get them banned); if they aren't they cheating, they are usually more understanding to their opponent's viewpoint anyways.

It clearly is an annoying experience to play with someone who is cheating. But in the most cases that were told in this thread the cheaters were poor players. And there is a logic in this, because the better player doesn't need to cheat. In most cases he will win against the cheater.

So maybe a if you get a strange feeling about your opponent, you shouldn't get angry and call for a judge. Remember you are the better player. Now be the better person! Behave verly friendly and supportive. Ask him if you can help him to avoid bumping his ships, bcause that could accidently lead to a double arc or better attack range. Ask if he knows that his new planned dials should be below the stack. Give advice to better play ships with command 1, if he isn't good guessing commands for next three rounds. If he's a cheater he will be ashamed. If he's struggling with the game, he will be thankful. In any case it's more fun and better for your karma to be polite and nice to your opponent. No hard feelings! It's only a game! Why bother.

Even the case with the loaded dice we have been told, the cheater was a poor gamer and lost all his games. Maybe it would have been better to smile about his stumbled story about only "wanting to test if the dice are really loaded". And then to ask if he wish to get advice to do better in the game.

If there is a person, who normally wins AND cheats like Nimbos friend, he seems to be a person with low self esteem, who needs to be better than others to believe he's worth it. If he's a friend I would mock him for his efforts to improve his playstyle. "Look! Again you just accidently bumped your ship to get another double arc!" "Hey, why don't you spend your red defense tokens flipping them to green? Makes your defence even better!" ... If he's no friend, I wouldn't play with him at all. Those guys will never change the way they behave and it's tiring to be with them.

On 8/30/2018 at 5:06 PM, clontroper5 said:

Things like damage deck manipulation

I protected myself against it long time ago. I focus on flooding my opponent under facedown damage cards.

Do you remove Structural Damage from your deck? I don't care! ?

1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I protected myself against it long time ago. I focus on flooding my opponent under facedown damage cards.

Do you remove Structural Damage from your deck? I don't care! ?

Haha yea, after thinking about it I think damage deck manipulation is actually probably the weakest way to cheat lol

I got into the habit of agreeing on arcs and ranges as an extra sub-step of movement. It helps alleviate problems due to nudging (accidental or intentional) and makes it very clear what you're trying to do. You also don't get into situations where there's a millimeter gap because of a shaking hand or something. Honestly, even without considering intentional cheating, it's a simple way to get a game that's as fair as possible and it's just good form in my opinion.

I do have the habit of picking up the whole command stack when setting commands and I hadn't thought it could be used for cheating. I'll pay attention to that for my future games.

Let's also not talk about my loaded black dice that seem to not be able to roll crits at the most inopportune of times.

How can you set a new command without picking up your command stack?

Asking for a friend, definitely not cheating

I had someone manage to move from an entirely blocked in position to the side arc of my nebs via the losest locking in of a manuever tool ever. It happened so fast there was nothing I could do. My opponent clearly realised he was facing a 10-1 hammering and cut a corner. Nothing I would be able to prove.

Set the dial, then just place it underneath.

Don't lift it all up and twiddle endlessly.

When looking, pick up with one hand, hold them up clearly visible, put them down again.

No touching with both hands. Keep thumb to yourself. Don't look when opponent is busy.

Also helps to keep dials next to ships, X-wing style, but in ship cards.

But that's not in the rules, so can hardly be enforced.

42 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

definitely not cheating

Anyone who has played against you on vassal knows that's a lie.

One thing I have recently run into is....bending the maneuver tool as you make the click in to make sure you get that arc or out of arc. I personally usually pin both the pointy end and the start to make sure they don't move. But I have seen the lean happen. Especially as the tools get older. And since the game ultimately allows you to hover to maneuver it kind of can also be used that way to make sure you get the angle. I personally usually only ask someone to mark a ship during an important arc line up maneuver. If someone wants to cheat they are going to cheat.

1 hour ago, Mogrok said:

One thing I have recently run into is....bending the maneuver tool as you make the click in to make sure you get that arc or out of arc. I personally usually pin both the pointy end and the start to make sure they don't move. But I have seen the lean happen. Especially as the tools get older. And since the game ultimately allows you to hover to maneuver it kind of can also be used that way to make sure you get the angle. I personally usually only ask someone to mark a ship during an important arc line up maneuver. If someone wants to cheat they are going to cheat.

I've seen that too, and sometimes when I see it happen ill cheerfully volunteer to pin the joint they are notching into with my finger while they move the ship to help make it easier for them to accurately navigate without all the wiggle. Most times they get the hint and accept the "assistance" I've never had someone tell me to keep my hand off the tool so they can keep finnicking it.

For myself, i usually notch and pinch the tool to the table before moving. Its much more accurate.

I'm reminded of an old but important proverb:

Never attribute to malice what could just as easily be attributed to stupidity.

In board games, this means that sometimes your opponents just screw up especially when the pressure's on.

Now if it's consistent and you have clear evidence of impropriety, that's one thing. But some times (and I know I'm guilty of this) you just plain screw up. Armada is a complex game by design. A standard Imperial Star Destroyer or Home One MC80 is deciding what it wants to do halfway through the game when it deploys . For most games that's around an hour later.

Players wil make mistakes. You'll make mistakes. Sometimes they'll turn a win to a loss or vice versa. I guarantee it. Few players, especially below the national/world champ level, have any incentive to cheat.

A long time ago (2016) in a regionals far, far away (Boston), this issue came up as a dispute. The two players involved both moved forward, but as far as I know it never got definitively resolved.

The good thing I guess I can say is Ive never felt Ive encountered it.

What really helps - is that after each move (or similar), check ranges, check arcs and agree with your opponent where everything is at.

"Ok so my ISDs just moved - you CR90s got me double arc at long, your Mc30s still at medium side arc only. Yep. yep.". Etc.

Saves all sorts of pain once the game keeps going and things get bumped etc.

Ive gotten so use to confirming range/arc with my opponent in xwing its become second nature. If you have to cheat to win its not a win.