Darrth Plagueis was enjoyable.

I liked the old Thrawn books, but the new ones are not very good.

Some of the old (Legends) Zahn books that I liked included Scoundrels, Allegiance, and Choices of One.

5 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

I’ve been catching up on new canon via the audiobooks. Just a small handful still unlistened at this point. Just finished Last Shot yesterday. Canto Bight is probably up next.

One minor point, since the book talk had been about the new canon: Darth Plagueis is a Legends book, so may or may not “fit” anymore.

Weeeeeeeeeell, maybe.

A character from Darth Plagueis shows up in Tarkin which is canon. And it happens as Palpatine is remembering his old master, Darth Plagueis. My understanding is that while some details were changed up (Plagueis was dead long before the Trade Federation hit Naboo), most of the book itself is canon.

13 minutes ago, Dayham said:

Weeeeeeeeeell, maybe.

A character from Darth Plagueis shows up in Tarkin which is canon. And it happens as Palpatine is remembering his old master, Darth Plagueis. My understanding is that while some details were changed up (Plagueis was dead long before the Trade Federation hit Naboo), most of the book itself is canon.

Hence “may or may not ‘fit’ anymore.” ?

10 hours ago, ErikModi said:

I haven't heard anything new on this in ages, and there's a part of me that would really like someone else to start making Star Wars video games, branching out beyond multiplayer shooters. Though that would also probably mean Star Wars: The Old Republic gets shut down, which would make me very, very sad.

Not necessarily, if Disney does what they should have done instead of the utterly ridiculous exclusivity deal and allow the Star Wars license to be passed out to anyone who wants it and can pay Disney's asking price SWTOR could easily continue. That is unless Disney declares that EA shall never touch the Star Wars license again, which is easily possible.

Just now, immortalfrieza said:

Not necessarily, if Disney does what they should have done instead of this utterly ridiculous exclusivity deal and allow the Star Wars license to be passed out to anyone who wants it and can pay Disney's asking price SWTOR could easily continue. That is unless Disney declares that EA shall never touch the Star Wars license again, which is easily possible.

Well, there is a certain logic to only having to deal with one company having a license. I agree, it would be better, at least for video games, to distribute the license among companies so you can get a wider variety of games beyond that company's niche that they do best.

8 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I liked the old Thrawn books, but the new ones are not very good.

He's such a Gary Stu! I'm glad he [redacted] the way he did.

I wanted to like them, and at first I did enjoy the audiobooks. But the graphic novel miniseries really drove the point home.

On 9/7/2018 at 3:41 PM, themensch said:

Oh geez, that's a tough call!

For the com...er, graphic novels, I have a hard time picking a favorite but I do enjoy the ongoing Darth Vader series and the short C3PO one was stellar. For the books, that's equally tough. I come into it not expecting to be blown away and that has suited me well. I like how things tie things together and I can often overlook foibles. I haven't done Inferno Squad yet but I did like Canto Bight all right - it really does flesh it out well enough to set a game there. Were I to recommend any of the books to start it would be Darth Plagueis as that one profoundly changed the way I view all of Star Wars lore. It even made me appreciate The Phantom Menace!

So Darth Plagueis is good then... I’ve looked at that one a few times but never got round to purchasing it! Anything in particular that you liked about it... characters/settings/info on the dark side?

I’ve read some of the comics & would agree on the Vader series being good... it’s Doctor Aphra that makes that one for me though! I also enjoyed Rebel jail... I’ve got no doubt I’ll be ripping that idea off for a future adventure ?

4 hours ago, AceSolo5 said:

So Darth Plagueis is good then... I’ve looked at that one a few times but never got round to purchasing it! Anything in particular that you liked about it... characters/settings/info on the dark side?

Its greatest accomplishment was reframing The Phantom Menace into something I now enjoy. I'd consider that a huge win. It is possible I read it with rose-colored glasses but of all the novels I've consumed over the last couple years, that one still sticks out.

14 hours ago, themensch said:

Its greatest accomplishment was reframing The Phantom Menace into something I now enjoy. I'd consider that a huge win. It is possible I read it with rose-colored glasses but of all the novels I've consumed over the last couple years, that one still sticks out.

How in the name of all that's Sith did it accomplish that?

Wait, I guess first I should ask how much you disliked that movie before. So on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the best, where would you rate it prior to Plagueis, and where after?

10 hours ago, the mercenary said:

How in the name of all that's Sith did it accomplish that?

Wait, I guess first I should ask how much you disliked that movie before. So on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the best, where would you rate it prior to Plagueis, and where after?

Hm, so the last question first. As a fan, I never hated TPM with the same vigor as other fans, but it was definitely at the bottom of my pile. I recon it's probably still at the bottom (next to the love story of 2) but now it's just not so bad. It's like when mama kissed the booboo, it didn't technically DO anything but it felt better.

That said, for me it brought in some formerly unknown aspects of the Sith and that there's a lot of forgotten Force knowledge to be had, even at the height of the power of the Jedi and Sith. Everyone railed against midichlorians but the scientist in me always loves reconciling spiritualism with science and that was neat for me.

I'm so sad about TLJ being what it was. On my phone I use Rey's theme for one of the alarms and it makes me mourn the loss of what I had hoped that character would become. I hope somehow the next movie is better.

I take solace in this game and the fact that it can give me the kind of Star Wars adventures I love.

On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 7:23 PM, themensch said:

He's such a Gary Stu! I'm glad he [redacted] the way he did.

I wanted to like them, and at first I did enjoy the audiobooks. But the graphic novel miniseries really drove the point home.

Yeah I like the Thrawn character but I can't stand his Strategy Spidey Sense. Every time someone else has to crap up his plan and he never seems to anticipate how bad his own guys are. Plus he suffers from the Worf Effect because they had to give him super tactics as a power and then had to write around it.

31 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Yeah I like the Thrawn character but I can't stand his Strategy Spidey Sense. Every time someone else has to crap up his plan and he never seems to anticipate how bad his own guys are. Plus he suffers from the Worf Effect because they had to give him super tactics as a power and then had to write around it.

In the new novels Thrawn has no such weakness. He's very much aware of how inferior everyone around him is, and he makes sure to point it out at every possible instance. He's simply too flawless to be believable or interesting, and much of that goes for the Chiss as a whole too.

20 hours ago, themensch said:

Hm, so the last question first. As a fan, I never hated TPM with the same vigor as other fans, but it was definitely at the bottom of my pile. I recon it's probably still at the bottom (next to the love story of 2) but now it's just not so bad. It's like when mama kissed the booboo, it didn't technically DO anything but it felt better.

That said, for me it brought in some formerly unknown aspects of the Sith and that there's a lot of forgotten Force knowledge to be had, even at the height of the power of the Jedi and Sith. Everyone railed against midichlorians but the scientist in me always loves reconciling spiritualism with science and that was neat for me.

Aye, I felt as a movie it wasn't particularly interesting (It was very much a slow burner), but as a world building exercise it was utterly fantastic. It presented everything that was wrong with the Republic before the clone wars, embellished on aspects of a Jedi order we knew very little about (How do Jedi take pupils? What was their role in the republic? How many were there? Were they a widely recognised order? How did they assess candidates and so much more.) and established how the setting worked and how Palpatine fitted within all this, so that when episode 2 came along we didn't have to ask any questions; we already knew what the factions were in play, what the major problems were and exactly how the Jedi suffered such a huge downfall.

Problem was is it's a bit like sweet and sour. It was much drier and political then the OT, yet it's attempts to introduce comedy were more slap stick then somewhat hammy, which really was more a issue of recent movies of that time. Tailoring an experience to an audience is difficult stuff, given that the current string of Disney movies does an awful lot of it. "It's a super hero movie, quick say something to deflate the tension!" is kinda become a very common thing, and on the flipside there is serious movies where no one ever laughs. Interesting really.

And I myself do enjoy Midicholorians. As someone who studied a fair bit of biology, a biological component that can be monitored in association to a particular biological trait makes complete sense. It's how most diseases are identified.

3 hours ago, LordBritish said:

And I myself do enjoy Midicholorians. As someone who studied a fair bit of biology, a biological component that can be monitored in association to a particular biological trait makes complete sense. It's how most diseases are identified.

But it doesn't make sense for identifying who can participate in the higher mysteries of a religion. That was the issue switching to science from mysticism. If it had always been scientifically explained, then further exploring that would have been more accepted. Instead, it jumped tracks.

27 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

But it doesn't make sense for identifying who can participate in the higher mysteries of a religion. That was the issue switching to science from mysticism. If it had always been scientifically explained, then further exploring that would have been more accepted. Instead, it jumped tracks.

Technically, there has always been a “biological” component to determining Force users. Even before TPM introduced Midichlorians into the mix, it had always been established that Force sensitivity was a genetic trait passed down from parents to their children. This is why you had the various bloodlines in the old EU; not just the Skywalkers, but also Sunrider, Halcyon, etc.

4 hours ago, LordBritish said:

Aye, I felt as a movie it wasn't particularly interesting (It was very much a slow burner), but as a world building exercise it was utterly fantastic. It presented everything that was wrong with the Republic before the clone wars, embellished on aspects of a Jedi order we knew very little about (How do Jedi take pupils? What was their role in the republic? How many were there? Were they a widely recognised order? How did they assess candidates and so much more.) and established how the setting worked and how Palpatine fitted within all this, so that when episode 2 came along we didn't have to ask any questions; we already knew what the factions were in play, what the major problems were and exactly how the Jedi suffered such a huge downfall.

Problem was is it's a bit like sweet and sour. It was much drier and political then the OT, yet it's attempts to introduce comedy were more slap stick then somewhat hammy, which really was more a issue of recent movies of that time. Tailoring an experience to an audience is difficult stuff, given that the current string of Disney movies does an awful lot of it. "It's a super hero movie, quick say something to deflate the tension!" is kinda become a very common thing, and on the flipside there is serious movies where no one ever laughs. Interesting really.

And I myself do enjoy Midicholorians. As someone who studied a fair bit of biology, a biological component that can be monitored in association to a particular biological trait makes complete sense. It's how most diseases are identified.

Some good points.

I'll admit to not being one of TPM's major supporters, as I felt back when it was released that it suffered from the fact that a major portion of the audience already know how things are going to play out, while the movie itself was setting up the board and providing the backdrop for the tale whose conclusion had already been told. Sadly, it was inevitable due to Lucas opting to start in the middle of the story rather than at the proper beginning. And as you said, the usage of slapstick for humor didn't help matters.

As for midichlorians, it's funny you say that you enjoy them, as I have a friend with a biology degree that gets all huffy and indignant when those words are mentioned, to the degree we have to tell them to chill out should the word come up in conversation. Personally, I see it as those just being the SW verse's equivalent of mitochondria, and ultimately just being a measuring stick (which may or may not be 100% accurate, as I could have sworn there's Legends material with members of the Jedi calling the whole thing into question) to determine if someone is "strong in the Force," with (presumably) a certain threshold at which the Jedi Order would consider the child to be a potential candidate for recruitment. It's an idea that certainly could have benefitted a lot more than Qui-Gon's "answers for children" explanation he gave to Anakin (who presumably had an elementary/primary school education at best and frankly didn't come across as being particularly intelligent, even for a child of that age) in the film. But, as the reaction was pretty much revulsion at even the notion that the Force might have a biological component, it never got explored and thus the idea never expanded upon.

Midi-chlorians are heroin; Qui-Gon made that extremely clear.

“I heard Yoda talking about midichlorians, and I’ve been wondering: What are midichlorians?”

”It’s heroin.”

On a serious note, though, I don’t really get the hate. The idea that a certain type of biological thing (Jedi call them life forms, but that could be an exaggeration born out of reverence) is more common as a result of Force-sensitivity make perfect sense. It could be a sort of subconscious telepathy that attracts them, or it be a number of other factors.

I always thought Qui-Gon had it backwards. It’s not a matter that having midichlorians makes one Force-sensitive, but that being Force-sensitive draws midichlorians. The greater one’s affinity for the Force, the more midichlorians will be drawn to that individual. It still makes them useful as a standardized means of seeing if someone can consciously tap into the Force, and fits with Qui-Gon’s views differing from traditional Jedi beliefs.

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I always thought Qui-Gon had it backwards. It’s not a matter that having midichlorians makes one Force-sensitive, but that being Force-sensitive draws midichlorians. The greater one’s affinity for the Force, the more midichlorians will be drawn to that individual. It still makes them useful as a standardized means of seeing if someone can consciously tap into the Force, and fits with Qui-Gon’s views differing from traditional Jedi beliefs.

So like gut flora? If your midichlorians are disrupted do you get force gas?

I guess I've avoided the midichlorian argument so fervently that it never occurred to me that they represent a genetic gatekeeper to the Force, which is supposed to flow through everyone and everything. The idea that they're sympathetic parasitical microscopic beings is intriguing, as is them being integral parts of cells in that galaxy and that genetics can play a part - or even both! This is some good conjecture-fuel.

Were there ever tales of Jedi or non-Sith traditions doing as much to research the nature of the Force as the Sith appear to have done?

50 minutes ago, Yaccarus said:

On a serious note, though, I don’t really get the hate. The idea that a certain type of biological thing (Jedi call them life forms, but that could be an exaggeration born out of reverence) is more common as a result of Force-sensitivity make perfect sense. It could be a sort of subconscious telepathy that attracts them, or it be a number of other factors.

True. After all, there has to be some biological component as to why only certain people can actively use the Force, given that there's examples in canon both old and new of people simply not able to use the Force, even if one or both of their parents were talented Force users.

In fairy tales and myths, it was "blood of heroes" or "divine lineage" or similar phrasing that allowed the heroes of those tales to accomplish their great/miraculous feats; Greek/Roman mythology is replete with heroes that were heroes simply due to having a parent that was a god (not always Zeus, though his rampant inability to keep it in his pants did literally spawn a number of Greek heroes).

Star Wars just simply updated those notions to "biological organisms" that Qui-Gon himself said were merely a means of connecting to the Force, never once saying (as many incorrectly assume) that midichlorians were the direct source of the Force.

2 minutes ago, themensch said:

Were there ever tales of Jedi or non-Sith traditions doing as much to research the nature of the Force as the Sith appear to have done?

I'll admit my knowledge of Star Wars lore is far from complete, but my understanding was that the Jedi held the Force in a higher degree of reverence, and thus didn't go quite so far in their research. The Jedi seemed more interested in theory and being in tune with the Force, with some aged masters (including Yoda) scoffing at the notion that even they fully understood the nature of the Force and accepting that the Force in its entirety was simply unknowable.

The majority of the Force traditions we've seen (at least in Legends) tend to either be even more reverential towards the Force than the Jedi, stopping their analysis at "it's a mystical energy that binds the universe together and that select few are able to tap into" or simply not having the means to conduct major research in the first place.

The Sith probably did most of their delving as a means to seek greater control, as being in control is one of the major driving tenets of general Sith philosophy, even if their code doesn't directly reference it. After all, to fully break one's chains is to be in control of your destiny to the point that nobody or nothing can exert influence on you or force you into a course of action you don't want to take.

3 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

True. After all, there has to be some biological component as to why only certain people can actively use the Force, given that there's examples in canon both old and new of people simply not able to use the Force, even if one or both of their parents were talented Force users.

There are people today that are simply incapable of having faith in the unknown*. They may belong to a religion more as a social or cultural thing than through any "true" faith. If you go with Force as faith then this explanation works too.

* Of course, there are so many concrete displays of Force use that doubting the Force exists--as so many Imperials seem to do after < 20 years--seems silly to me.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

The Sith probably did most of their delving as a means to seek greater control, as being in control is one of the major driving tenets of general Sith philosophy, even if their code doesn't directly reference it. After all, to fully break one's chains is to be in control of your destiny to the point that nobody or nothing can exert influence on you or force you into a course of action you don't want to take.

Maybe that was the true cause of the schism. Those that became the sith wanted to keep researching it while the others wanted to keep the blinders on stick with hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. Sith deal in absolutes, scientists deal in data and absolutes... It all makes sense now.