On 9/1/2018 at 10:27 AM, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

I understand that it isn't Move. It is however, in essence, fairly similar. It requires Force points to "move" a target closer to then finish the action with a lightsaber attack. The attack doesn't work if there aren't enough force points to "move" the target closer.

This move is very, very strong. The player that asked the OP question uses it almost exclusively as it is their strongest ability. I've had to since make many more enemies snipers to combat "Draw Closer".

In my head, it just seems silly seeing a minion group of 3 or more being moved in general. By Move, Draw Closer or any other means of moving a minion group. Especially without magnitude upgrades.. I get that's how it works mechanically, there's no arguing that is what the RAW is. I just don't love the RAW here, simple as that.

Just warning you that begins the arms race where players just get the talents or enhance to literally move from short to long.

There are a lot of talents that let you maneuver out of turn incidental and Improved Free Running lets you maneuver up to medium in any direction. Force Leap once finished lets you do Medium jumps as a maneuver, Combined with Draw Closer and Hawk bat swoop actions you run into a I get there in a single turn. Improved Dodge and Shien's special talent lets them do this out of turn as an incidental...

19 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Also, the sidebar on resisting Force powers directly implies you would use the Move power to hurl an opponent across the battlefield (and suggests Resilience as a skill to oppose it).

Thanks you and Donovan Morningfire for the answers.

A dev saying that Move is used to make a Force Push like in the movies is enough for me to accept the power to be used against living creatures too.

I missed that sidebar. What I find interesting in it is that Force Power can be opposed. For me it means that a minion group could oppose a PC trying to use the Move Force Power against it. I don't think I'll allow ungrouped minions to oppose a Move FP, since one ore more magnitude upgrades are needed. But only the base power + one strength upgrade are needed for a minion group, it seems fair to me to allow the minion group to oppose the Move.

1 hour ago, WolfRider said:

Thanks you and Donovan Morningfire for the answers.

A dev saying that Move is used to make a Force Push like in the movies is enough for me to accept the power to be used against living creatures too.

I missed that sidebar. What I find interesting in it is that Force Power can be opposed. For me it means that a minion group could oppose a PC trying to use the Move Force Power against it. I don't think I'll allow ungrouped minions to oppose a Move FP, since one ore more magnitude upgrades are needed. But only the base power + one strength upgrade are needed for a minion group, it seems fair to me to allow the minion group to oppose the Move.

Here's the thing with the "opposed Force power" bit of the rules.

That sidebar (on page 283, titled "Resisting Force Power Checks") spells out that the only beings who get the option to resist a Force power are the PCs, Nemesis-tier opponents, or a plot-important named rival. Anyone else, from non-named rivals to minions, doesn't get the option to resist unless the Force power already calls for an opposed check the way that Influence does for the mind trick Control upgrade or Bind dues for it's Mastery upgrade.

It also cites that if the Force power requires a combat check (such as hurling an object at someone with Move or using Unleash), then it can't be made into an opposed check either.

Of course, to probably nobody's surprise, Move can get a bit dodgy in this, given that you can lift somebody and then hurl them into a wall or slam then into the ground. On a strict reading of the rules, you're attacking the wall/floor, dealing damage to both it and the person you've just hurled (with the person getting the worse end of the deal by far), so the target could make the difficulty opposed since they're not the ones being directly targeted by the combat check. Then again, your Discipline check is ultimately a combat check, which per the sidebar can't be made into an opposed check.

Looking to the prequels, we've got Kenobi and Anakin's Force push-off in RotS, which can be spun in several different ways in the rules. One possible take is that the GM made it an opposed check on Anakin's part, using his Discipline vs. Kenobi's Discipline, and resulting in a failed check with a Triumph to hurl Kenobi backwards but also a Despair causing him to be hurled backwards as well. Another is that Kenobi used Protect to negate the damage as an out-of-turn incidental, or that he used the Suppress power. Easiest solution is that it was treated as an opposed check, but some GMs prefer a crunchier, more involved method of handling such things.

It's worth noting that in Season 1 of Rebels, we see Kanan use Move to lift and pin the Grand Inquisitor to the ceiling of the Imperial dungeon for a couple minutes to allow him and Ezra to escape. It doesn't look like Kanan was trying to do damage, just hold the GI in place for a brief spell to give themselves a running head start, so it's pretty easy to say that was an opposed check, and odds are Kanan got lucky on the check, as I'm fairly certain the Inquisitor would have a better Discipline at that point in the series (Kanan was still coming off not using his Force abilities extensively for several years).

3 hours ago, WolfRider said:

Thanks you and Donovan Morningfire for the answers.

A dev saying that Move is used to make a Force Push like in the movies is enough for me to accept the power to be used against living creatures too.

I missed that sidebar. What I find interesting in it is that Force Power can be opposed. For me it means that a minion group could oppose a PC trying to use the Move Force Power against it. I don't think I'll allow ungrouped minions to oppose a Move FP, since one ore more magnitude upgrades are needed. But only the base power + one strength upgrade are needed for a minion group, it seems fair to me to allow the minion group to oppose the Move.

It should also be made clear that depending upon what you’re trying to achieve, either Move or Bind can be used for Force Push/Force Pull. This too has been confirmed by the Devs.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It should also be made clear that depending upon what you’re trying to achieve, either Move or Bind can be used for Force Push/Force Pull. This too has been confirmed by the Devs.

If you also want to immobilize the target, this is the case. You have to activate the base power before activating the Control upgrade.

Ok making the use of Move opposed isn't a good idea. Then the other solution is to not use the minion group rules for Move. Or to say it better if you want to move minions it doesn't matter if they are grouped or not because the only way to move more than one minion by using the Move Force Power is to buy as much magnitude upgrades as needed.

I've read all this thread and I understand many don't share my opinion on this subject. But for me it doesn't make sense to need magnitude upgrades to move more than one blaster and to not need any magnitude upgrade to move more than one minions, just because they are grouped and the minion group rules allow it. And I'll probably extend it to minion group rules don't apply when any Force Power is used against minions, whatever how many there is. Given that I don't like those rules and rarely use them, they won't be difficult to ignore.

1 hour ago, awayputurwpn said:

If you also want to immobilize the target, this is the case. You have to activate the base power before activating the Control upgrade.

Exactly. Also, if you're not trying to actually injure your opponent, just push him back or pull him to you.

One thing that I think is worth mentioning that might be getting overlooked is that minion groups were never meant to be a serious threat to the PCs.

While they may not be the glorified speed bumps en route to the plot that Brute Squads in 7th Sea second edition represent, neither is a minion group meant to be an insurmountable obstacle. At most, minion groups are there to briefly slow the PCs down on their way towards the plot and provide an action sequence for the action-orientated players to enjoy. They're cannon fodder, disposable opponents there to allow the PCs to look cool and feel badass about wiping out two or three at a time during the scene. Example being Luke during the Pit of Carkoon fight where he's pretty much chewing through Jabba's various minions, drawing the heat so that his allies can each do their thing. Also an example would be Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's rampage aboard the Trade Federation ship in the opening act of TPM, a scene that George Lucas specifically reference as being an inverse of the typical Godzilla sequence where the monster rampages through the meager human resistance.

As was remarked earlier in the thread, a PC with an autofire-capable weapon or even just dual-wielding heavy blaster pistols is going to chew through minion groups with as much ease (maybe even more in some instances) than a Force user with Move will and for far less of an advancement. For instance, I can make a starting XP Smuggler/Gunslinger or Smuggler/Scoundrel with two heavy blaster pistols with the Paired attachment, allowing me to score two hits at Damage 7 plus successes for 1 Advantage, which isn't that hard to accomplish against a minion group at short range. Or chew through at least two to three minions in a group each turn with a standard, unmodded double-bladed lightsaber (Linked 1, Breach 1, Crit 2), which depending on how the GM handles things could be an available weapon option as soon as the conclusion of the group's first adventure. Or heck, a simple heavy frag grenade can easily decimate a minion group of stormtroopers (which I've seen done repeatedly in one campaign) and those things are dirt cheap at 75 credits a pop, and the legality may be a moot point if the PCs are working for or with a military/para-military outfit, such as the Alliance.

Whether you go by Strength upgrades or Magnitude upgrades, using Move to do the same sort of thing still requires an investment of at least 40 XP (base power, Strength upgrade, Range upgrade needed to access the Control upgrade, and then at least one Magnitude upgrade) for the Force power, to say nothing of the XP investment to get to Force Rating 2, as you need at least three Force points to pull it off (1 for base power, 1 for Magnitude upgrade, 1 for Strength upgrade), and even at FR2 that's not a sure thing unless you're willing to suffer strain/conflict and burn a Destiny Point for dark pips.

Not saying either method (using Magnitude upgrades or requiring an extra Strength upgrade) is right or wrong, since neither the rules or the devs (who have only said "use the Move power") say how it's to be done. Just remarking that maybe some GMs are giving more weight to what is ultimately a disposable and forgettable threat more weight than they really deserve.

On 9/2/2018 at 7:28 PM, Donovan Morningfire said:

So it's pretty much in the RAW that Move can be used on people as well as inanimate objects.

Sure, if you're selective about RAW, and which dev answers you want to adhere to. As noted in this thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/281529-move-and-bind-dev-ruling/?do=findComment&comment=3450717

Unlimited Power, page 89, says "Normally, Move can only target objects, but the GM might decide that Minions are easily dispatched..." The implication is that people are not "objects"...or maybe it's any living being, or...?

So there is no official answer, it's whatever the GM wants to decide. But that's a problem for any new GM.

On 9/2/2018 at 3:04 AM, 2P51 said:

People have talked about the Minion rules, Silhouette rules, Starship rules, and the Move power itself, but all lead back to Move which ends up being where it all falls apart. It's not a disagreement at that point over any Rules that Are Written, it's that there aren't any Written. There are a series of head scratchers once you start using Move creatively that should have been covered.

Absolutely. This has been an ongoing issue since the first days of the game. The least they could have done by now is provide some guidance on how to make a decision in the context of the power and structure of the game. A generic section about how to handle power and scale, and using Move as an example, could be pretty valuable. And Move isn't the only topic that could benefit from such a discussion.

Ultimately it comes down to flavour: do you want to play as a PowerDweeb or something with a little more nuance? A little guidance either way would be welcome.

23 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Sure, if you're selective about RAW, and which dev answers you want to adhere to. As noted in this thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/281529-move-and-bind-dev-ruling/?do=findComment&comment=3450717

Unlimited Power, page 89, says "Normally, Move can only target objects, but the GM might decide that Minions are easily dispatched..." The implication is that people are not "objects"...or maybe it's any living being, or...?

That is assuming you also want to be equally selective and have one single sentence written by a freelancer overriding the core rulebook, to say nothing of ignoring the dictionary definitions of "object" that I posted earlier.

Bet that if you asked the devs, their response would be some version of "yeah, that's pretty much an error on the writer's part that was missed in editing, as Move is meant to be used on living beings as well."

42 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

That is assuming you also want to be equally selective and have one single sentence written by a freelancer overriding the core rulebook, to say nothing of ignoring the dictionary definitions of "object" that I posted earlier.

Bet that if you asked the devs, their response would be some version of "yeah, that's pretty much an error on the writer's part that was missed in editing, as Move is meant to be used on living beings as well."

The newer products seem to have more such problems than I recall early in the lines. I think quality control is slipping.

44 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Bet that if you asked the devs, their response would be some version of "yeah, that's pretty much an error on the writer's part that was missed in editing, as Move is meant to be used on living beings as well."

This.

Or maybe there's a time travel paradox...

You kill them with Move. The bodies are now objects, so you can Move them into the past to kill themselves. And now the bodies are objects and you can Move them into the past to kill themselves. Since dead bodies are objects, you can Move those into the past to kill your targets. This gets you bodies which are objects, so Move those into the past to...

Oops! Too far into the past.. We're now pre-Disney!

5 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Oops! Too far into the past.. We're now pre-Disney!

Ah great, so I can just use the Force to slow all their molecules down until they are literally frozen. Now they are objects?

It's likely a combination of reduced staffing and newer product lines (Genesys and L5R) getting more of the attention. Those two factors were things that Rodney Thompson constantly had to deal with when he was in charge of Star Wars Saga Edition for WotC, which wasn't all that surprising given they were publishing D&D 4th edition, which simply had a huge glut of new material being churned out both in print and online, with stat blocks suffering the worst of it; Jedi Academy Training Manual being hilariously awful in this respect, more so even than Threats of the Galaxy which had a much higher volume of stat blocks than any other book in the line.

The RPG portion of the license has always been the least lucrative of the trio (card games, minis, RPG books), and the lack of online sales due to licensing idiocy on the part of WEG who started it and LucasArts who perpetuated it has quite likely cut into the long term profitability of the lines. Yes, FFG is doing reprints of the books, which means they're still selling and thus generating revenue, but as reprints cost more to produce than PDFs* they still cut deeper into the line's revenue.

*in spite of what many might believe, there are costs involved with producing and selling PDFs, such as the online retailers taking their share of the sale, though said costs are generally much lower than producing physical books due to not having to pay for printing/binding, shipping, and transit costs. Of course, one could opt not to sell their PDFs through online retailers such as DriveThruRPG, but that also has the effect of greatly reducing one's audience and potential customer base.

So, last night I started reading this thread (great question, btw). But at some point, the post begins to look like this:

Poster #1: You want the RAW?
Poster #2: I think I’m entitled to.
Poster # 1: You want the RAW?
Poster # 2: I WANT THE RAW !
Poster # 1: YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE RAW !

On 8/28/2018 at 4:25 PM, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

So one of my players asked me a question about using Force move on minion groups. More specifically to throw one group of minions at the other. I do understand that normally on a minion the check would just be a force die roll. I think this would be a discipline roll with difficulty 1 since they are silhouette 1?

Also, do the minions being thrown take damage as well as the targeted minion group?

But what if the minion group is 5 minions. In my head it seems like that would be larger than silhouette 1 even if the minions were normally sil 1. Which I guess in itself is another part of the question.. I read the book and it doesn't say anything about changing the sil of minion groups, if it does I can't find it.

Hopefully this question makes sense, thanks guys!

Hello everyone,

I think I have a suggestion. And please, take this as a suggestion since I’m not that familiar with the force powers in FFG Star Wars (I only had two FS players, and they used basics stuff). As I indicated, I didn't finish the whole thread, so if this was already posted, my apologies.

So let’s see what you need to roll.

Depending on the number of minions, you would need enough force points/magnitude upgrades (*) to move the targets, strength for Sil 1, and control for damage. The range will depend on how close are both groups. Your approach as a Sil 2 object is interesting, but I think it will be too easy to strike a group and calculate the damage may be tricky.

(*) Also please consider the following ruling (see excerpt):
“If you’re trying to throw three stormtroopers around with Move, it would make a lot of sense that you’d need a Magnitude upgrade (especially since you could forgo the magnitude upgrade and still throw one stormtrooper around, potentially removing them from the minion group if you could throw them far/hard enough).”

Post:

Now, when you throw objects, you make a force power check and rolls a ranged attack using Discipline. Since the Sil is 1, is 1 purple difficulty, plus any defense the minions may have against ranged combat. For hitting with all your projectile-minions, you would require to expend advantage and use the rules of auto-fire (FaD, page 299.)

About the damage

This is the hard part, right?. So page 299 of FaD mention that the number of targets affected is up to the GM “But in general a single object affect a single target” Since you are targeting a minion group, I will consider as a single target.

For example, if you manage to move 3 minion and attack with them as if they where projectiles using auto-fire, I would deal 3 attacks of 10+sucesses damage to the target group, and not to a subgroup of 3 minions in that group. Is the same principle if you are hitting them with 3 Sil. 1 objects.

"Also, do the minions being thrown take damage as well as the targeted minion group?"
Yes, they do. The projectile-minions group also receives the same damage per hit that the target minions receive. The only consideration you need to have is the difference of soak.

Does this make any sense? Let me know. I’m here to learn.

@Rithuan thanks for the feedback! I believe this was covered at some point. When I asked the question I wasn't fully aware of using the auto fire rules for when using force move on multiple targets to attack was a thing. Now knowing this it has helped me in deciding the ruling.

No problem!

(that happens when I arrive late to the party... hope there is still some snacks around here)