Or you know fighting inside buildings its really hard to hurl people up into the air when the ceiling is only 10 feet. Stop putting bottomless pits inside your bases or giant caverns.

Require a discipline check (Seriously guys look at the rules on minions) StormTroopers are willpower 3 and gain ranks in discipline based on the number of minions in the group... 5 storm troopers = 3red 2 Purple discipline check to toss them around. Not that I would use it on minions, but single giant monster sure....

The thing about the Empire is it has a nearly limitless horde of storm troopers on a planet. So you just killed 5 of the 100,000 storm troopers on the planet and 500 in the city.

@KungFuFerret really my point when posting the GM comment was that it was a bad argument. Just like saying that you feel cheated by having to spend more xp on a talent, due to a house ruling for minion groups and move.

A GM should know the powers of their players and plan accordingly. I completely agree and understand that as a GM we have the tools to make any encounter balanced. However that does come with some skill, not every GM is on the same level. Everyone has to start somewhere.

This issue has not come up in my game yet. This all started because one of my players wanted to know how it works when using "Draw Closer" or "Move" on a minion group. I just wanted to be fully prepared on how to rule it, and after reading the rules I simply thought "wow that seems really easy for something that can (not always) be really strong."

Draw Closer is not move its a talent that brings targets to the Force User by "handwave force" and honestly as your force rating goes up it becomes very lethal very quickly..

29 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

This issue has not come up in my game yet. This all started because one of my players wanted to know how it works when using "Draw Closer" or "Move" on a minion group. I just wanted to be fully prepared on how to rule it, and after reading the rules I simply thought "wow that seems really easy for something that can (not always) be really strong."

Ah! That specific situation, with the Draw Closer ability, I think you have a very easy way to rule that one. Just have them make their Draw Closer roll as normal, and add up the damage. However many minions this would kill/injure, that's how many narratively got pulled forward. Pulling the weak from the herd if you will. The others just didn't get effected, since you didn't roll high enough to hit them. That would be my "at the table ruling" on that at least. Again, I don't really see it as too big of an issue in the long run. But since the Force user doing Draw Closer, will likely roll fairly high on damage, if your minions are averageing 4-5 soak/minion, it's highly likely they will get at least 2 just from damage output alone, and if they have a few crits, that adds even more to the pile. So they could still theoretically wipe out the group. I know I did with the most non-lethal version of a lightsaber user you can pretty much make. It was actually kind of terrifying really, that this "saber newb" i made, was still able to cleave his way through a minion pack with no effort, on a single roll.

2 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Draw Closer is not move its a talent that brings targets to the Force User by "handwave force" and honestly as your force rating goes up it becomes very lethal very quickly..

I understand that it isn't Move. It is however, in essence, fairly similar. It requires Force points to "move" a target closer to then finish the action with a lightsaber attack. The attack doesn't work if there aren't enough force points to "move" the target closer.

This move is very, very strong. The player that asked the OP question uses it almost exclusively as it is their strongest ability. I've had to since make many more enemies snipers to combat "Draw Closer".

In my head, it just seems silly seeing a minion group of 3 or more being moved in general. By Move, Draw Closer or any other means of moving a minion group. Especially without magnitude upgrades.. I get that's how it works mechanically, there's no arguing that is what the RAW is. I just don't love the RAW here, simple as that.

4 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Ah! That specific situation, with the Draw Closer ability, I think you have a very easy way to rule that one. Just have them make their Draw Closer roll as normal, and add up the damage. However many minions this would kill/injure, that's how many narratively got pulled forward. Pulling the weak from the herd if you will. The others just didn't get effected, since you didn't roll high enough to hit them. That would be my "at the table ruling" on that at least. Again, I don't really see it as too big of an issue in the long run. But since the Force user doing Draw Closer, will likely roll fairly high on damage, if your minions are averageing 4-5 soak/minion, it's highly likely they will get at least 2 just from damage output alone, and if they have a few crits, that adds even more to the pile. So they could still theoretically wipe out the group. I know I did with the most non-lethal version of a lightsaber user you can pretty much make. It was actually kind of terrifying really, that this "saber newb" i made, was still able to cleave his way through a minion pack with no effort, on a single roll.

This is how I believe I will be ruling draw closer with minion groups. Even though RAW would technically still pull them all in. I just don't like it ruled that way haha.

In my opinion, I'd have to say Niman Disciple is one of the best specs out there.

Just now, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

This is how I believe I will be ruling draw closer with minion groups. Even though RAW would technically still pull them all in. I just don't like it ruled that way haha.

Eh, as i've said above, I don't really have an issue with moving them all at once, but that's me, you do you. Draw Closer though is simply just a damage increaser, like any other damage boost, that's what it's really doing. So just calculate it like any other damage modifier and drop another minion if the numbers come up that way

2 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

In my opinion, I'd have to say Niman Disciple is one of the best specs out there.

If you are playing a Force User that focuses on the actual Force, and having a high FR to fuel those powers, yes, it's probably the best one for you to pick. However there are plenty of builds that don't really focus on requiring a high FR to be effective, like the more martial/melee focus specs. For that type character, Niman would probably not be their best bet. For a Sage though? Heck yeah it's totally gravy.

20 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

That's not a feature, but rather a shortcoming of the game. Far better to give clear and concise rules. People can always house rule and deviate from there if they want to, but "intentionally nonspecific" is a failure to even start everyone off on the same page.

No it isnt a shortcoming. A gm failing.to get everyone on the same page would be a shortcoming on the gms part. Not the system.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

No it isnt a shortcoming. A gm failing.to get everyone on the same page would be a shortcoming on the gms part. Not the system.

If the system had no shortcomings, there wouldn't be dozens of pages of Q&A to get clarifications on where the common starting point is supposed to be. Yes, the players (including GMs) have faults too, but the writers made some poor choices that trickle down.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No it isnt a shortcoming. A gm failing.to get everyone on the same page would be a shortcoming on the gms part. Not the system.

Put another way:

There is no disadvantage to having clear and concise rules as a common starting point for all players to utilize. This is the optimal situation. Anything short of this is therefore a shortcoming.

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

If the system had no shortcomings, there wouldn't be dozens of pages of Q&A to get clarifications on where the common starting point is supposed to be. Yes, the players (including GMs) have faults too, but the writers made some poor choices that trickle down.

No. That is because nothing is perfect. You will notice most of the answers really put the power in the gms hands. Where it should be.

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Put another way:

There is no disadvantage to having clear and concise rules as a common starting point for all players to utilize. This is the optimal situation. Anything short of this is therefore a shortcoming.

Actually there is. You make the gms job much harder and you encourage rules lawyering.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Actually there is. You make the gms job much harder and you encourage rules lawyering.

The GM can always house rule just as with crappy or unclear rules. The difference is that it only happens when the GM wants to, not because of a need to clarify a poorly constructed rule.

I'm all for GMs having latitude on rulings, I don't think clear rules automatically eliminate that. Force Move could have used some specifics. It's one of those topics that repeatedly comes up in threads. If it was foolproof, or if it was a clear choice for GMs I don't think there would be the repeated threads. The problem is it doesn't provide enough specificity and this thread's main point in regards to the minion rules is a prime example. They could have easily addressed it in the power.

1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

I'm all for GMs having latitude on rulings, I don't think clear rules automatically eliminate that. Force Move could have used some specifics. It's one of those topics that repeatedly comes up in threads. If it was foolproof, or if it was a clear choice for GMs I don't think there would be the repeated threads. The problem is it doesn't provide enough specificity and this thread's main point in regards to the minion rules is a prime example. They could have easily addressed it in the power.

I thi k a large part of that is few do the math on what it takes to reliably fo a feared action. To reliably do many actions with move bbn you need FR 3 plus a whe bunch of points in move power upgrades.

2 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

The GM can always house rule just as with crappy or unclear rules. The difference is that it only happens when the GM wants to, not because of a need to clarify a poorly constructed rule.

I dont see flexible rules ad poirly written. I see that complaint as having poorly managed expectations. This is not D&D or pathfinder where every nuance is defined to the nth degree.

23 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I dont see flexible rules ad poirly written. I see that complaint as having poorly managed expectations. This is not D&D or pathfinder where every nuance is defined to the nth degree.

Every nuance? Really? Move is a common Force power that's been around since the Edge core and Minion groups have too. Is it really too much to ask that two commonly encountered areas of the rules interact smoothly without requiring house rulings? And if you truly don't believe that they require house rulings, you haven't paid attention to the last 8 pages of this thread.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

I thi k a large part of that is few do the math on what it takes to reliably fo a feared action. To reliably do many actions with move bbn you need FR 3 plus a whe bunch of points in move power upgrades.

54 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I dont see flexible rules ad poirly written. I see that complaint as having poorly managed expectations. This is not D&D or pathfinder where every nuance is defined to the nth degree.

I'm not concerned with % of success, and the excuse that a poorly written rule won't create a circumstance that happens very often doesn't make it not a poorly written rule. The % chance of success hasn't really been the issue in this thread although it was raised tangentially, it still isn't the issue the OP had.

Rules that don't exist can't be flexible or inflexible.

The power is written poorly. There are those advocating that the minion rules are their rationale to ignore the Magnitude upgrades in Move, and yet none of them respond to my multiple examples of pointing out I need multiple Magnitude upgrades at their table to move 5 jelly beans, but none to lift a dozen Stormtrooper minions 300 feet into the air.

There are some that want to invoke acruing Conflict either to convert dark pips or as the result of using the Force to kill the aforementioned Stormtroopers. I always find narrative justifications for bad mechanics to be the thinnest of arguments.

People have talked about the Minion rules, Silhouette rules, Starship rules, and the Move power itself, but all lead back to Move which ends up being where it all falls apart. It's not a disagreement at that point over any Rules that Are Written, it's that there aren't any Written. There are a series of head scratchers once you start using Move creatively that should have been covered.

Curious that some think the rules allow wiping out a 10 man squad of minions as possible with Move and no Magnitude needed, and yet I can only seize 5 blaster rifles at most. In a game focused on the heroic Jedi to have Move written where I can commit genocide with it, but can only disarm 5 at most, seems like the clearest indication the rule isn't written well. Before anyone gets into any rule lawyering.

Add "Squad(ron) rules" to that list of things people are pulling from to house rule an answer.

I edited that one alot, trying to be comprehensive. I think it was in one 'draft'.....I did mean to include it.

It illustrates there's all these other rules that essentially make sense, but you have to pull from some or all of them to 'force' Move into making sense, and even when you do, it doesn't make sense. I can lift a minion group of 800, but only take 5 blasters away??

I have a question about Move : where is the rule saying you can use it on living beings ?

When I read the texts in the tree and in the F&D core rulebook, it is written that you move an OBJECT. Other Force Powers use the word target when you can apply this power to either object or living being. My understanding of the Move Force Power is you can use it against droids, which are objects, but you can not use it against stormtroopers, who are living beings.

12 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

I have a question about Move : where is the rule saying you can use it on living beings ?

When I read the texts in the tree and in the F&D core rulebook, it is written that you move an OBJECT. Other Force Powers use the word target when you can apply this power to either object or living being. My understanding of the Move Force Power is you can use it against droids, which are objects, but you can not use it against stormtroopers, who are living beings.

Frankly, it comes down to just how literal you take the world "objects" to be.

If you read it as being "an inanimate thing that can't move or act on it's own" then Move has zero effect on living beings, nor would Move have have any affect on droids as those are animate 'objects' that are able to move and act on their own. That same definition could easily be extrapolated via insane troll logic to say that vehicles and starships cannot be affected by Move when their engines are on, because at that point they are no longer inanimate 'objects.'

Now, the dictionary definition (courtesy of www.dictionary.com) of the word object is "anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form." Which would included organic/living matter such as a human beings, given they are both visible and tangible, and have a relatively stable form, same as the definition would apply to non-living subjects such as droids, cargo crates, parked starships, flying starships, blasters, and wall mountings. Merrium-Webster's first entry under the definition of the word object is " something material that may be perceived by the senses ," which again would include living beings as we're something material that can be perceived by the senses."

Plus, you've got a dev answer from Sam Stewart (one of the guys that helped create the game in the first place) saying that you'd use Move to replicate the Force wave/push/blast effect we see in the prequels that sends droids and people flying. Anakin uses a Force 'blast' against a group of Geonosians (living creatures) in AotC during the factory sequence, as well as Obi-Wan and Anakin getting into a Force push "duel" during their big fight in RotS, to say nothing of Darth Maul using the Force to shove Obi-Wan away and into the reactor pit towards the end of their duel in TPM. So that's a pretty clear indication that Move is meant to work on living beings. We see Kylo Ren and Snoke frequently use telekinesis to fling people around, and not always to inflict damage the way that Bind would (unless they went out of their way to only use white pips to generate Force points, which seems highly unlikely for a pair of committed dark siders).

More likely than not, the writers used the word "object" rather than "target" for Move to try an account for the astonishingly wide variety of things that a player may well try to affect with the power. After all, there are thousands more players than there are people working on the RPG, and players are notorious for coming up with novel ways to do things that are so outside the norm that the game's writers had never once considered.

28 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Frankly, it comes down to just how literal you take the world "objects" to be.

If you read it as being "an inanimate thing that can't move or act on it's own" then Move has zero effect on living beings, nor would Move have have any affect on droids as those are animate 'objects' that are able to move and act on their own. That same definition could easily be extrapolated via insane troll logic to say that vehicles and starships cannot be affected by Move when their engines are on, because at that point they are no longer inanimate 'objects.'

Now, the dictionary definition (courtesy of www.dictionary.com) of the word object is "anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form." Which would included organic/living matter such as a human beings, given they are both visible and tangible, and have a relatively stable form, same as the definition would apply to non-living subjects such as droids, cargo crates, parked starships, flying starships, blasters, and wall mountings. Merrium-Webster's first entry under the definition of the word object is " something material that may be perceived by the senses ," which again would include living beings as we're something material that can be perceived by the senses."

Plus, you've got a dev answer from Sam Stewart (one of the guys that helped create the game in the first place) saying that you'd use Move to replicate the Force wave/push/blast effect we see in the prequels that sends droids and people flying. Anakin uses a Force 'blast' against a group of Geonosians (living creatures) in AotC during the factory sequence, as well as Obi-Wan and Anakin getting into a Force push "duel" during their big fight in RotS, to say nothing of Darth Maul using the Force to shove Obi-Wan away and into the reactor pit towards the end of their duel in TPM. So that's a pretty clear indication that Move is meant to work on living beings. We see Kylo Ren and Snoke frequently use telekinesis to fling people around, and not always to inflict damage the way that Bind would (unless they went out of their way to only use white pips to generate Force points, which seems highly unlikely for a pair of committed dark siders).

More likely than not, the writers used the word "object" rather than "target" for Move to try an account for the astonishingly wide variety of things that a player may well try to affect with the power. After all, there are thousands more players than there are people working on the RPG, and players are notorious for coming up with novel ways to do things that are so outside the norm that the game's writers had never once considered.

Also move is used inside and outside of combat...

Also, the sidebar on resisting Force powers directly implies you would use the Move power to hurl an opponent across the battlefield (and suggests Resilience as a skill to oppose it).

4 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Also, the sidebar on resisting Force powers directly implies you would use the Move power to hurl an opponent across the battlefield (and suggests Resilience as a skill to oppose it).

Good point.

So it's pretty much in the RAW that Move can be used on people as well as inanimate objects.

Unless you've got a GM that treat cargo boxes as opponents for their PCs to fight.