14 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Maybe there are folks checking in to see if anything useful has been posted other than you and Decorus having what amounts to a heated lovers' quarrel over who overcooked the pasta? Excessive drama over an utterly trivial concern.

At this point, the only thing you and Decorus are doing is hurling insults at one another in a vainglorious attempt to see who's got the bigger e-peen, which is completely nonconstructive to the purpose of this thread.

To be frank, today was the first time I'd looked into this thread in quite some time, mostly out of an apparently vain hope that the petty bickering would have subsided. But thanks for proving that hope was misplaced.

Continuing to post lays your hypocrisy bare DM, you're about as interested in ending the bickering as a skunk is in not stinking. You don't like the content you can turn your narrow *** around and walk right out the cantina door, bye. Guess how much I don't care if you're disappointed this thread doesn't mean the DM standard of quality?

I find this thread to be

A) Firey, and until Decorus decided to call me an idiot, free of personal insult. I don't think anyone here is unable to express themselves. Everyone is articulate and has a solid command of written English, as well as understanding of the rules, if even cherry picking and lawyering them, can't rule lawyer something if you don't know the rules.

B) Topical about an FFG product and rules therein.

C) Focused on RPGing and a critical series of elements related to it in regards to the concept of Rule Lawyering.

I'll leave it to people to decide for themselves what they can take away from this thread, why don't you drop your self superiority BS and do the same.

On 8/30/2018 at 6:00 PM, 2P51 said:

There is a mechanical difference because if you play cherry pickin rules lawyers games like you, a player can pick up 10 stormtroopers and chuck em off a bridge without any Magnitude upgrades. Don't tell me this isn't rules lawyering with minion rules because it is.

Well technically a minion group should be 1 silhouette bigger per squad rules. So i think you either use magnitude or you treat the group as a bigger silhouette

4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Well technically a minion group should be 1 silhouette bigger per squad rules. So i think you either use magnitude or you treat the group as a bigger silhouette

Not all Minion groups are squads (by the squad rules). Somehow, 8 Stormtroopers in a Minion group do not have increased Silhouette while those two Rebel redshirts you convinced to follow you as squad-mates do. That's RAW for those that obsess on such, but it's more than a little weird.

On 8/28/2018 at 4:25 PM, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

So one of my players asked me a question about using Force move on minion groups. More specifically to throw one group of minions at the other. I do understand that normally on a minion the check would just be a force die roll. I think this would be a discipline roll with difficulty 1 since they are silhouette 1?

Also, do the minions being thrown take damage as well as the targeted minion group?

But what if the minion group is 5 minions. In my head it seems like that would be larger than silhouette 1 even if the minions were normally sil 1. Which I guess in itself is another part of the question.. I read the book and it doesn't say anything about changing the sil of minion groups, if it does I can't find it.

Hopefully this question makes sense, thanks guys!

So going back onto the actual topic and trying to be helpful on the off-chance the @Quigonjinnandjuice hasn't written this thread off as a completely lost cause...

Point blank, how minion groups are affected by Move is very much a "up to the individual GM," as there's no concrete, properly-spelled out answer, especially if you're wanting a 'Force push' type of effect like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan did multiple times against the battle droids in Episode 1.

Normally, a single minion would indeed require a Strength upgrade and if hurled at somebody/something, would be an Easy (1 purple) difficulty Discipline check. Of course, that's assuming the minion doesn't have the Size special quality to denote it's bigger (thus requiring more Strength upgrades and more difficulty dice) or smaller (Silhouette 0 minions would require no Strength upgrades and be a Simple difficulty), but unless the minion's profile says otherwise, the default is that they're Silhouette 1 (aka human-sized). That part is at least defined in the rules as written.

Now, where things start delving into the realm of GM interpretation is if you want to pick up and/or hurl a minion group . Part of that is the rules are quiet on if a minion group is required to have its members be engaged with one another; since the rules on minions don't specify, a GM is within their rights to have minions in a group be at Short, Medium, Long, or even Extreme range from each other; that said it seems the majority of GMs keep their minions within short range if they're in the same group, if only to make things easier on themselves.

By strictest reading of the rules, you'd need to invoke Magnitude upgrades to affect more than one minion in a group, which means to affect a more than a single Silhouette 1 minion, you'd need a minimum of 3 Force points (1 for the base Move, 1 for Strength upgrade, 1 for Magnitude upgrade), with each minion affected taking 10 wounds (+ successes) for being "hurled" into the ground. But the needing 3 Force points means that for most PCs, doing a classic Force push type of effect to take out several foes requires a Force Rating of 2 at minimum, and thus puts it out of the reach of many PCs in the early going.

That being said, one suggested alternate approach is that rather than Magnitude upgrades, the GM instead treat a minion group as being one Silhouette larger than their base type. So if you want to use Move to do a Force push against a minion group of antiquated battle droids (who by default are Silhouette 1), you'd instead treat them as a Silhouette 2 object, needing an Average (2 purple) difficulty Discipline check but doing 20 damage to the group (which is probably enough to take out 3 or 4 of them in one go, much like we see in TPM). But this is ultimately a house rule, albeit a common enough one that I've seen a few folks get confused into thinking it's an official rule. It requires buying an extra Strength upgrade (which doesn't require that much extra XP), can be done at FR 1, but is overall simpler and cinematic and gives the player the feeling of "my character did something cool!" when they take out a minion group in one go.

Where things can get into the realm of splitting hairs is the fact that per RAW minion groups are treated as a single target for the purposes of combat checks. It can be up to GM interpretation if the Discipline check (which is noted as ranged combat check in the Control upgrade's description) qualifies when you're doing the initial picking them up, which it can be construed that such would not be the case as you're not technically "attacking" the group until after you've lifted them, and that by tossing them into the floor/wall/ceiling you're not technically attacking the minion group (rather using them as a means to attack an inanimate object), but as I said earlier it's splitting hairs. I can see 2P51's point that being able to affect an entire minion group with just the basic Move power and a lone Strength upgrade seems a bit much, but on the other hand said attack would only inflict enough damage to probably take 1 or 2 minions at best, since you'd only be dealing damage once given the minion group constitutes a single target. Of course, that also means that you could spend several advantage or a Triumph to knock the entire group prone since you only need to affect one "target," which may or may not be problematic depending on each individual GM's tastes.

My best suggestion would be to take some time and sit down with the players and discuss the notion with them, preferably in between sessions, and come to a group consensus of what works best for your table. And if your group finds your initial solution is unsatisfactory, then don't hesitate to go back and revisit the discussion until you find an approach that everyone's happy with.

Sorry this thread turned into such a sh**-show, but hopefully the above helps you out somewhat.

It's too bad that there wasn't an upgrade following the "force hurl" option for Move that added Blast X to that attack. Then it could hit multiple targets (or not) much like a grenade.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

And yet they can dispatch that many threats with a good blaster rifle and a good roll and that's ok? Or heck, just swinging a lightsaber. I'm currently playing a very non-combat Padawan, and he has the absolute most basic saber type you can have. I intentionally didn't install any mods to improve it beyond base stats, because he's a healer, not a saber master. And with just a 3g1y roll, he was able to kill 3/5 minions, and the roll wasn't even that good.

So why is that perfectly ok to do to minions without requiring a ton of XP, but doing the same thing with Move is somehow broken?

My counter point would be:

1.) The Move power doesn't have to do the same damage as a lightsaber or a blaster rifle for it to be a balanced and useful power.

2.) No one is complaining they spent XP on Supreme Scathing Tirade but can't take out a 5 unit minion group in one shot like the combat PCs can for example.

3.) Using the Hurl control talent in the Move tree and a Sil 2 object and you will do about the same about of damage to a minion group as you did with your lightsaber, and the difficulty will be the same too.

4.) Tangential to the points above, I personally find using Move to lift an enemy into the air to have them take auto fall damage is cheesy, gamey, munchkin-ey, and not really in the spirit of the Star Wars Universe. We just don't see Force Users flinging people in the air to their doom using this power.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

4.) Tangential to the points above, I personally find using Move to lift an enemy into the air to have them take auto fall damage is cheesy, gamey, munchkin-ey, and not really in the spirit of the Star Wars Universe. We just don't see Force Users flinging people in the air to their doom using this power.

I think part of the issue here is that the game makes falling damage nasty, probably too nasty for the type of cinematic action that it's designed around. Falls that do happen in Star Wars don't seem to do much to normal people, and Jedi don't seem to be bothered by them at all. Now perhaps all Jedi are Sentry-trained for Impossible Fall, but more likely it's the falling rules that are just unreasonably harsh. Fix those and the idea of lifta-droppa attacks will be less of an issue.

1 minute ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

We just don't see Force Users flinging people in the air to their doom using this power.

You do if you are playing many of the video games in the franchise. That was in fact my preferred method of combat, over using a saber.

2 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

My counter point would be:

1.) The Move power doesn't have to do the same damage as a lightsaber or a blaster rifle for it to be a balanced and useful power.

I'm not saying it does, I was questioning 2P51's comment. I personally think Move is just fine as it is, and don't really care which way a GM rules about the whole "picking up a group of minions" discussion. I voiced my thoughts on that many pages ago, and could see either ruling as reasonable. But it's not my table, so my opinion, doesn't really matter. It's up the OP and their players to decide what works for them. My only point is there are a LOT of ways to quickly and easily plow through groups of minions, with single actions, and they are fairly easily available to low level PC's, and don't necessarily require a significant XP investment to do so. Which is why I find it strange to say one way of plowing through a minion group is just fine, but another isn't.

5 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

2.) No one is complaining they spent XP on Supreme Scathing Tirade but can't take out a 5 unit minion group in one shot like the combat PCs can for example.

Just checking, but are your points being presented under the assumption that I am against the idea of Moving a minion group as one target? I'm not sure based on your phrasing. Just wanted to clarify, because that's not my position, so if your points are countering that position, your talking to the wrong person

7 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

3.) Using the Hurl control talent in the Move tree and a Sil 2 object and you will do about the same about of damage to a minion group as you did with your lightsaber, and the difficulty will be the same too.

Yep, which is one reason why I don't find the whole debate all that relevant, or necessary, as it's just as easy to grab Random Object 27, and use it, as use a Minion group. As I stated in a previous post, I had a player, who of my friends, would be the guy who would want to do the "I hurl a group of dudes at another group of dudes! Because lulz and it makes me feel powerful!" And it wasn't really an issue, because he got just as much glee out of grabbing a sil 2 object and hurling it at some rival beasts for impressive damage. Using minions as projectiles is ONE application of an ability that is super utilitarian, and powerful as combat anyway.

10 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

4.) Tangential to the points above, I personally find using Move to lift an enemy into the air to have them take auto fall damage is cheesy, gamey, munchkin-ey, and not really in the spirit of the Star Wars Universe.

I read this post, and I'm instantly remembering all of the times that published, official Star Wars games let you do exactly that thing. So I dunno, feels "in the spirit of Star Wars" to me. If it's good enough for Kyle Katarn and Starkiller as a combat strategy, it's good enough for me I think. Besides, it's just a vector of direction. Mechanically it shouldn't be any different than slamming them into a wall with a lot of power, and hurting them that way. Kinetic energy is a b**** no matter which direction it's coming at you from.

30 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Well technically a minion group should be 1 silhouette bigger per squad rules. So i think you either use magnitude or you treat the group as a bigger silhouette

You do something, or I'm not ever going to bother with Magnitude Upgrades if all I have to do is grab minions and can bypass it. I can't grab their 8 guns, but I can grab them, such baloney.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

I read this post, and I'm instantly remembering all of the times that published, official Star Wars games let you do exactly that thing. So I dunno, feels "in the spirit of Star Wars" to me. If it's good enough for Kyle Katarn and Starkiller as a combat strategy, it's good enough for me I think. Besides, it's just a vector of direction. Mechanically it shouldn't be any different than slamming them into a wall with a lot of power, and hurting them that way. Kinetic energy is a b**** no matter which direction it's coming at you from.

Never played any of these computer games, and never really had a desire to. In the movies you just don't see these over the top power "Moves". But that doesn't make my view point on the matter any better than anyone else's.

1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

You do something, or I'm not ever going to bother with Magnitude Upgrades if all I have to do is grab minions and can bypass it. I can't grab their 8 guns, but I can grab them, such baloney.

And this is pretty much the viewpoint I share with the Pirate; being able to use move and bypass the magnitude upgrade just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. At my table I would require the magnitude upgrade if you are going to pick up an entire minion group and move them somewhere (gently or otherwise). Just my two cents.

15 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Never played any of these computer games, and never really had a desire to. In the movies you just don't see these over the top power "Moves". But that doesn't make my view point on the matter any better than anyone else's.

Palps and Yoda literally hurling the Senate doesn't count as "over the top" ? I guess I just don't understand the difference in OTT, when we have the same characters hurling objects the size of semi-trucks, and yet hurling a handful of people is OTT? I find someone who can throw a car, WAY more OTT than someone who can juggle 5 balls, or even chainsaws if you want a larger object for the analogy.

5 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Palps and Yoda literally hurling the Senate doesn't count as "over the top" ? I guess I just don't understand the difference in OTT, when we have the same characters hurling objects the size of semi-trucks, and yet hurling a handful of people is OTT? I find someone who can throw a car, WAY more OTT than someone who can juggle 5 balls, or even chainsaws if you want a larger object for the analogy.

I think this is a false analogy to a degree. I suspect we both agree Palps used the Magnitude upgrade to chuck those senate hover platforms at Yoda. Unless someone is going to try to say they were "minions" and Palps only needed a single strength upgrade to make it happen...

So Magnitude and Strength would be needed to throw multiple Senate chamber pods with Move but only Strength would be needed against a Minion group of 4 TIE fighters?

2 hours ago, 2P51 said:

You do something, or I'm not ever going to bother with Magnitude Upgrades if all I have to do is grab minions and can bypass it. I can't grab their 8 guns, but I can grab them, such baloney.

Huh?

50 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Huh?

I'm agreeing you have to do something to take into account multiple minions besides nothing.

3 hours ago, 2P51 said:

I'm agreeing you have to do something to take into account multiple minions besides nothing.

Ah ok. Yeah minions really should be treated as more than sil 1. And the squad rules give a good rule if thumb. I think somenpeolle fail to grasl this system is intentionally non specific on these things. It allows gms to pick a method they prefer and it fits raw.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

I think somenpeolle fail to grasl this system is intentionally non specific on these things. It allows gms to pick a method they prefer and it fits raw.

That's not a feature, but rather a shortcoming of the game. Far better to give clear and concise rules. People can always house rule and deviate from there if they want to, but "intentionally nonspecific" is a failure to even start everyone off on the same page.

I really hope they release a Genesys sourcebook and I'm pretty sure the Force would be handled a lot more like the magic is in Genesys.

11 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

It's too bad that there wasn't an upgrade following the "force hurl" option for Move that added Blast X to that attack. Then it could hit multiple targets (or not) much like a grenade.

I was working on a tweak of the Move power a while ago (mostly rolling the "hurl objects" ability into the base power) and one of the options I considered was replacing that now vacant spot on the power tree with a "add Blast X quality" upgrade in its place. Problem that kept cropping up was "what value do I use for X?"

Using Willpower lead to X being very high at the outset for super-dedicated Force wizard builds, but worse still was that it had little chance for improvement. Discipline had the concern of being too low in the early going (let's face it, Blast 2 or even Blast 3 isn't much use in a fight against foes with even 4 soak). I considered Discipline times two, but lead to the Blast quality scaling up way too quickly, making Move even more of an effective combat power than it already is.

Another option was tying it to the number of Strength upgrades purchased (or upgrades times two, given the Discipline concern above), but that didn't really work for builds that wanted to focus on just flinging smaller objects (generally used in combo with Magnitude upgrade for "death of a thousand cuts" via autofire, which a gaming buddy of mine is dead set on attempting at some point).

Also tried out a few combinations, such as ranks in Discipline as base and then adding either number of Strength upgrades or number of Magnitude upgrades by spending a Force Point, but that just felt cumbersome and again forced the PC into devoting even more XP and potentially requiring upgrades that a PC build concept might not otherwise require.

In the end, I just found it simpler to use the "treat minion group as being one silhouette larger than base" as a more satisfying and easier-to-implement solution.

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I think some people fail to grasp this system is intentionally non specific on these things. It allows GMs to pick a method they prefer and it fits raw.

To an extent, I place the blame for that sort of mindset on D&D 3rd edition, which instituted and enforced a "rule for everything and everything has rules" mentality, not only in new gamers but also older gamers that were fed up with the "loosey goosey" approach that some RPGs took to things (White Wolf's Storyteller system was one frequent target of such complaints, especially where combat was concerned). D&D 4th edition was a mixed bag, as it straight-jacketed the players but tried to free up the GM's hands more to interpret non-combat situations as they saw fit, while Pathfinder kept chugging right along on the 3.X train while adding even more crunch and rules.

And some of those folks who've gotten used to having the rules spell out 99% of everything simply can't (or just won't) adjust to a system where there's not one universal approach to interpreting how the rules work. For better or for worse, FFG decided with this system to give players and GMs the freedom to interpret things to however they work best for their table (nearly all of the dev answers have language that suggest that the questioner do just that), and some folks (as this thread as shown) are simply incapable of accepting that.

Even Genesys does this (makes sense as it's an offshoot of this game), with its magic system being fairly loose by design and allowing players and GMs to simply make stuff up on the fly (the Utility category of spells is a prime example) and the rules saying "don't treat these list of options as the end-all and be-all of what spells can do." And there are folks who simply can't (or again won't) accept that and realign their thought process to accommodate this, as a great many of these "discussion" (and I use the term loosely) threads demonstrate time and again.

9 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

So Magnitude and Strength would be needed to throw multiple Senate chamber pods with Move but only Strength would be needed against a Minion group of 4 TIE fighters?

My take would be that would boil down to how the GM runs their minion groups, and that an application of common sense would be needed, as is frequently the case when one is GMing in any sort of narrative-focused system.

In the case of a minion group of stormtroopers that are all engaged with one another, I'd say that just the Strength upgrades are needed, and that's it. And I'd say that whether the Force user was trying to lift/hurl the group or just ****** all their weapons, much as we saw Vader do to that minion group of Rebel soldiers in the end of Rogue One. We don't see the prequel-era Jedi do this because it's simply more efficient to either use Force push/blast or just their lightsaber to take out the groups of battle droids we see them facing off against. Kanan does do a double disarm against a couple of stormtroopers in a season one episode of Rebels, and I'd suggest the GM didn't require Kanan to use a Magnitude upgrade to do so given the troopers were well within a couple feet of one another (i.e. a group of two minions engaged with one another). Could Kanan have tried to use that same trick in Spark of Rebellion against the large number of stormtroopers (likely two minion groups of five to six troopers each) that Agent Kallus was directing during the Kessel fight? Sure, but at that point Kanan (and the script) were going for "dramatic awesomeness" with his reveal of being a Jedi rather than the tactical efficiency that many players tend to aim for.

But if the minions aren't engaged with each other, then even if they're a minion group I'd say that's when Magnitude upgrades begin to come into play, as they're not really a single tight grouping, even if they are using coordinated teamwork to attack their targets (i.e. function as a minion group for purposes of determining dice pools for their skill checks). Maybe an allowance could be made for troopers within short range to still be treated as a "single target" and thus not require Magnitude upgrades, but that's up to the individual GM, and probably not an allowance I'd make, sticking to "have to be engaged with one another to count as a singular target" as discussed directly above.

Of course, that also depends on how the GM runs their minion groups. A great many GMs (including the ones that work directly for FFG such as Sam Stewart and Max Brooks as well as veteran GM/freelancer Sterling Hershey) tend to cluster their minion groups together and counting them as being engaged in those instances where they used maps for the combats, just to make things easier on themselves when running convention games and for larger scale combats. I'm sure there are GMs that run their minion groups as being at medium or even long range from each other, but those seem to be the minority from what I've seen and experienced.

Now with vehicles, seeing as how vehicle scale's close range is said to be an even further distance than character scale's extreme range, I would require Magnitude upgrades to affect a minion group of TIEs, as there's no sensible way they'd be flying in such a tight formation that the wings would be nearly kissing one another. While the films aren't much on realistic space combat, even to a casual observer it's pretty clear there's a substantial amount of distance of several meters between ships in a group.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I was working on a tweak of the Move power a while ago (mostly rolling the "hurl objects" ability into the base power) and one of the options I considered was replacing that now vacant spot on the power tree with a "add Blast X quality" upgrade in its place. Problem that kept cropping up was "what value do I use for X?"

Maybe use the PC's Force Rating to determine Blast value? It would then be slow to escalate, but still have the potential to be powerful in a strong Force user's hands. Or maybe if you think Blast 4+ is just too OP no matter what, perhaps take a page from the Inflict Agony force power, where they halve the pips you get by however many wounds you took.

So maybe have it be Blast = 1/2 Force Rating (Minimum 1), You could either round it down to be further restrictive, or round up to be more lenient. This would mean the Blast would still be at 1 until either the PC was FR 3-4, depending on the round up/down decision.

Although this is not how I thought the thread would turn out.. I feel like I've gotten some good insight as far as how it can be ruled.

RAW certainly works, may be a lot easier than I would personally like my game ran.. but it works.

Requiring magnitude, seems like a good ruling to make it a little more challenging. As well as make the power align with its other rulings. (Yes I understand the minion group rules, this comment doesn't need to spark more senseless RAW spouting)

As far as players feeling like they're being cheated out of a power or feeling like they need to spend more XP than necessary.. All I can really say to that is why are we even playing the game? The whole point is to play and earn xp to earn more powers, while telling a fun story.. For everyone at the table..

A GM could go ahead and use that same unnecessary complaint, saying that it's unfair that the encounter they spent all they're free time developing was ended in one action. This isn't how I would personally feel, but it's in the same ball park as "it's unfair to change the rules so I have to spend more xp."

However there has been some bickering, which doesn't bother me at all.. Honestly I've enjoyed reading it. There has been some good discussion on how to house rule the move mechanics for minion groups. In a way that's fair and narratively makes sense.

1 minute ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

As far as players feeling like they're being cheated out of a power or feeling like they need to spend more XP than necessary.. All I can really say to that is why are we even playing the game? The whole point is to play and earn xp to earn more powers, while telling a fun story.. For everyone at the table..

See that's my point though, not disagreeing, just I feel this point isn't really all that realistic, as it kind of implies that the ONLY way a player will feel "powerful" is if they can hurl large groups of minions around like pinballs. And from my personal table experience, playing with a guy who does tend to have issues with feeling like he's not being useful (in any game, not just FFG SW), the level of glee I saw on his face, the first time he hurled a Sil 2 beast, using all of his upgrades (just got FR 2, so he had more pips to play with), was priceless. He didn't feel "cheated" or "powerless". Because he just flat out killed that beast in a single attack, making the fight WAY easier for the rest of the team. And I made sure to describe in a narratively satisfying way, so he got his jollies off it. If a player is being that confrontational about a SINGLE use of a very powerful power, it's time to check that player and realign his expectations. Because if to him "powerful = This One Thing", then he's sorely missing out on the plethora (Jeffe, what is a plethora?) of ways to actually use that power.

8 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

A GM could go ahead and use that same unnecessary complaint, saying that it's unfair that the encounter they spent all they're free time developing was ended in one action. This isn't how I would personally feel, but it's in the same ball park as "it's unfair to change the rules so I have to spend more xp."

See, this is another one that I don't really get. I mean, I'm the GM, i KNOW exactly what my players can/can't do currently, ability wise. So it's not that hard to tailor fights to mitigate that kind of exploitation. Situational setback dice on the attack roll, making it higher than just 1 purple die. Using a Destiny Point to upgrade it to a Red, allowing for the chance of a really bad side effect. Not giving them 30+ minions in multiple groups in a single encounter to use in such a way Adding distance limiting obstacles, so that the targets they want to fling around are simply too far away for them to use Move on in the first place. "Oh look, Star Wars architecture is constantly based around large chasms and vast gaps between walkways and platforms, why didn't I think of that before?" *sticks minion group at Long range on an elevated balcony, sniping at the players* Having other NPC's with ranks in Adversary to further make the check difficult. Giving the enemy Suppress and using it against the players so they can't play their One Trick Pony card over and over . There are TONS of things a GM can do if they actually take the time to think about it.

Personally, I'm fine with the consider minions as one target in all ways, as I just don't care about minions, I'm not supposed to really. They are there to add some ballast to an encounter, but also meant to be moved through without too much issue. If I don't expect them to live long in other circumstances, I don't see why this one is any different. And I'll just plan accordingly. Have enemy Force users use Move on the players in the same way, to give them a taste of their own medicine, etc. I'll use the time the players are plowing through the 30+ minions (because I expected them to plow through them), and have the Nemesis do other stuff, like the actual objective that they are trying to accomplish, and that the players aren't stopping because they busy playing Pool With Minions.

*shrugs* I dunno, I just don't see it as a problem at all, much less the opening of the flood gates of anarchy and chaos that some in this thread seem to think it is.