16 hours ago, 2P51 said:

Well past

There is just the incurable power gamer out there that has no way of grasping rule lawyering, and can't be satisfied with spending like 40 lousy xp to be able to pick up with their minds and kill 5 stormtroopers as very good. It can't see how completely ****** OP it is to just skip the Magnitude upgrades, exploit the minion group rules, and be able to dispatch the entire group, which is by RAW, not a fixed number. It will then turn around and expect the Magnitude upgrades to juggle inanimate objects. 

I'm not seeing the issue. Minions are supposed to die quickly and easily thats the point of them being minions. Also you seem to be leaving out a lot of xp that has to be spent prior to getting magnitude upgrades.

To toss minions into the sky to do enough damage you need at least one strength upgrade, several range upgrades oh and of course at least 3 force rating to be able to do it reliably possibly more since

1 to activate 1 for range and 1 for strength thats three force pips not something that happens often so its what 200 xp ish to get 3 force rating?

I think for spending 200+ xp they should be able to easily kill minions that some characters can massacre with starting xp.

Boohoo, I think a PC should have to invest some xp before they can dispatch half a dozen threats with their mind powers, I'm so mean.

12 minutes ago, Decorus said:

I think you are an idiot who doesn't actually play.

lol, you're clearly new.

28 minutes ago, Decorus said:

I think you are an idiot who doesn't actually play.

To dispatch half a dozen threats Move requires

Basic move 15 xp

Strength upgrade 10 xp

Range Upgrade x 2 10 xp

35 xp invested

Force rating 2 is 90 xp at the cheapest

I think 125 xp invested is plenty. to sometimes dispatch minions.

So no I don't think a player needs to waste another 40 xp so you can be a **** about it.

I think you're the idiot and shameless powergamer that hasn't watched the movies.

Luke was being trained by the preeminent Jedi Master of the age after having dabbled in the Force for a couple years and he couldn't keep a few rocks and his droid in the air in perfectly safe surroundings because of a bad vision. How much xp did Luke have after having been in the Rebellion for a couple years?

You on the other hand seem to think a PC shouldn't have to be invested in the Move tree to toss several Stormtroopers in the middle of a gun fight where your life is on the line.

You guys are going to get this thread shut down if you don't start acting like adults.

I'd rather not have that happen in case there is a chance someone can answer how they reached the conclusion you can kill a whole 10+ member Minion group with Move that's actually based in the game's Combat mechanics. Because as I've have tried to point out you can't unless your GM ignores how damage is resolved through an Attack roll and allows you to. And don't just answer with "you drop them from a high place", how do you do it as an Attack using the Combat rules, how do you determine that the damage from that attack roll can exceed the stated amount of 10 x Silhouette. If you only count a Minion group as Sil 1, regardless of how many individuals are in that group, then the maximum damage you can do is 10 x Sil + Successes and a single Crit. What rule says you can ignore this maximum and instead kill the whole group?

27 minutes ago, Decorus said:

I think you are an idiot who doesn't actually play.

To dispatch half a dozen threats Move requires

Basic move 15 xp

Strength upgrade 10 xp

Range Upgrade x 2 10 xp

35 xp invested

Force rating 2 is 90 xp at the cheapest

I think 125 xp invested is plenty. to sometimes dispatch minions.

So no I don't think a player needs to waste another 40 xp so you can be a **** about it.

OK what exactly is the GM doing to be a richard about requiring the magnitude upgrade here? I simply don't see it.

Truth be told, I find the whole "I use move to lift them into the air and drop them for instant kill damage" to be gamey anyway (certainly not something I can think of that happened in the movies), and I don't really care that "other mechanics can do it, so Move should be able to as well." Use Autofire if you want to murder minions en masse.

3 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

What rule says you can ignore this maximum and instead kill the whole group?

Its a fair question, I think the counter point is the rules for falling damage. If a character falls from medium range they take 30 damage and 30 strain for example.

It comes down to a GM ruling, which is what the core of this thread was all about. The GM can rule it either way, and might even (gasp!) change their rulings during a game and even during the same game session.

18 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Its a fair question, I think the counter point is the rules for falling damage. If a character falls from medium range they take 30 damage and 30 strain for example.

It comes down to a GM ruling, which is what the core of this thread was all about. The GM can rule it either way, and might even (gasp!) change their rulings during a game and even during the same game session.

I guess, but if you stick to the normal combat RAW and follow the dice results you eliminate the problem folks like 2P51 are complaining about. For example: Jedi Toss-a-Lot wants to lift a whole Group of minions in the air and drop them to their deaths, OK, roll your attack, you were able to generate X damage enough to kill two troopers so two make it up far enough to fall to their death the rest hit the ground uninjured. Or two drop into the chasm below the rest were able to escape your grasp before they got there.

Now I totally get there will be situations where say Jedi Toss-a-Lot wants to hold a minion group over a chasm and drop them later. Well that's going to be a different kind of situation because that's no longer an Attack as far as the Combat rules are concerned, so at this point you will definitely need to work something out that makes sense but for most other situations you can just follow the die results.

2 minutes ago, Decorus said:

You can do math right?

Raw toss minions to doom is :

1 to activate 1 for strength 1 for range Thats three force pips and a 2 force rating to sometimes do it a 3 force rating to always do it. Minimum xp investment 125 xp closer to 200 if your force rating 3.

Being a **** and adding Magnitude means 1 to activate 1 for strength 1 for range 1 for magnitude. Force rating 3 to sometimes do it force rating 4 to do it all the time.

That means nearly completing two to 3 specs and a much higher investment in move.

I call that being a ****, because a base character using a weapon can wipe out an entire minion squad in a single turn if built for it.

People on the forums forget Move is not cheap to use, because you have to buy the force rating up to use it. Its a built in sunk xp cost for balance. Taking on additional requirements beyond that is being a ****.

Your constant disparaging comments are not earning you credit here. All they do is distract from your argument. Tone it down.

I have absolutely no problem in requiring a character to have a FR of 3 or 4 to move minions in the manner in which you are suggesting. There is nothing about it that is unfair to the character in question in my mind.

The character who builds an autofire murder hobo can do it cheaper, but that is all the murder hobo can do with their autofiring craptasticness. Your character with Move on the other hand cannot only fling minions around like the Force is Unleashed, they have LOTS of utility with this power that lets them do all sorts of fun things. So I yes, I feel it is perfectly reasonable to require more XP to spent on the character who specializes in Move than that character who specializes in being Baze Malbus.

If player wants to have an adult conversation with me about some aspects of the mechanics that might suggest not using the magnitude upgrade in some situations, I would of course listen and see what I can do to create a mutual agreeable solution.

However, I just am baffled by your aggressiveness and disparagement in this thread. It is totally unnecessary.

I don't see an adult conversation. I see a bunch of people acting like children, because they hate the rules as written for inexplicable fear of an issue they probably have never even dealt with.

Its like your terrified the players might kill minions easily....

See you seem to think that a character should require more xp invested for no reason.

Autofire murder hobos can do a lot more with the extra 200+ xp you are forcing the Move user to have to do what they can do at the start of the game.

At 10 to 15 xp a session the character will have to have played through 20 sessions thats 20 weeks of game time. Before they can dispatch a single squad of Minions.

How is that fair to the player?

3 minutes ago, Decorus said:

I don't see an adult conversation. I see a bunch of people acting like children, because they hate the rules as written for inexplicable fear of an issue they probably have never even dealt with.

Its like your terrified the players might kill minions easily....

See you seem to think that a character should require more xp invested for no reason.

Autofire murder hobos can do a lot more with the extra 200+ xp you are forcing the Move user to have to do what they can do at the start of the game.

At 10 to 15 xp a session the character will have to have played through 20 sessions thats 20 weeks of game time. Before they can dispatch a single squad of Minions.

How is that fair to the player?

The number of false analogies, straw man arguments, and ad hominem attacks in this post leave no other recourse than to simply stop discussing it with you. The irony is you clearly have no idea just how much I actually do know about EVERYTHING you have posted here, and have seen first hand by players at my table.

With that... I am out. Hopefully to the OP this thread has actually been useful.

47 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Its a fair question, I think the counter point is the rules for falling damage. If a character falls from medium range they take 30 damage and 30 strain for example.

It comes down to a GM ruling, which is what the core of this thread was all about. The GM can rule it either way, and might even (gasp!) change their rulings during a game and even during the same game session.

And the dev ruling in regards to Blast effects on Minions.

38 minutes ago, Decorus said:

You can do math right?

Raw toss minions to doom is :

1 to activate 1 for strength 1 for range Thats three force pips and a 2 force rating to sometimes do it a 3 force rating to always do it. Minimum xp investment 125 xp closer to 200 if your force rating 3.

Being a **** and adding Magnitude means 1 to activate 1 for strength 1 for range 1 for magnitude. Force rating 3 to sometimes do it force rating 4 to do it all the time.

That means nearly completing two to 3 specs and a much higher investment in move.

I call that being a ****, because a base character using a weapon can wipe out an entire minion squad in a single turn if built for it.

People on the forums forget Move is not cheap to use, because you have to buy the force rating up to use it. Its a built in sunk xp cost for balance. Taking on additional requirements beyond that is being a ****.

Better than you can apparently do adult.

If by being an *** expecting people to invest xp in the aspects of a Force Power that allows them to do what they are trying to do, then yes.

It does not require 3 FR, unless you have an entitled mentality, where you want complete certainty and no consequence, along with no effort to get to that point. 2 FR can easily do it, and quite frequently, if you convert dark pips.

A Joe Gun character can't do anything without a gun, whereas a Force PC can in their jammies.

1 hour ago, FuriousGreg said:

You guys are going to get this thread shut down if you don't start acting like adults.

Honestly, at this point that'd probably be the best case scenario.

Well, the bickering parties taking their bickering over to private messaging instead of thread-crapping would truly be the best case scenario, but experience shows that won't be happening any time this century.

Sigh I'm not sure why you can't get this.

One to activate one for strength upgrade to sil 1 one for range medium/long that is 3 pips Each one requires a force pip to activate. 1 +1+1 =3

Your way requires 4 pips to activate.

So for yours to work you need 4 force pips on 2 force dice the odds are about 7% of happening on two dice or with 3 about 23% so 7 out of 100 dice rolls or 23 out of 100 dice rolls. (Including darkside pips)

My way requires 3 pips on 2 dice the odds of which are closer to 20% and 100% for a force rating 3 including darkside pips

1 hour ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

It comes down to a GM ruling

Does it even? Why would combat negate the falling rules?

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Does it even? Why would combat negate the falling rules?

Totally fair question. I'd say the vast majority of the time combat shouldn't negate the falling rules.

16 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Sigh I'm not sure why you can't get this.

One to activate one for strength upgrade to sil 1 one for range medium/long that is 3 pips Each one requires a force pip to activate. 1 +1+1 =3

Your way requires 4 pips to activate.

So for yours to work you need 4 force pips on 2 force dice the odds are about 7% of happening on two dice or with 3 about 23% so 7 out of 100 dice rolls or 23 out of 100 dice rolls. (Including darkside pips)

My way requires 3 pips on 2 dice the odds of which are closer to 20% and 100% for a force rating 3 including darkside pips

Right, my way requires an invested trained experienced character to do reliably, and your's is for fat lazy whiney entitled cry babies.

I'm confused how is 125+ xp not invested?

Is there some kind of threshold?

1 hour ago, Decorus said:

At 10 to 15 xp a session the character will have to have played through 20 sessions thats 20 weeks of game time. Before they can dispatch a single squad of Minions

Yep. So what? I've never seen anybody but Mace destroy more than that in a Force blast, none of the other icons of the galaxy can do it either, mostly they use their lightsaber or find another way.

1 hour ago, Decorus said:

How is that fair to the player?

What's this "fairness" you speak of? Useless argument. At my table, learning the Force requires a lot of time and commitment, a lifetime's worth. It's not cheap. You're not going to be Mace Windu in a few weeks or less. It took Luke years to just get his lightsaber to jump to his hand, I don't recall him pushing anybody around.

It seems to me your idea of "fairness" is that one-trick ponies have to be equal. This is the D&D way...all classes end up the same because their favoured stat powers their favoured weapon or spell, so everybody is pretty much on the same playing field when it comes to damage output. Wizards, rangers, warlocks, druids...they might all have a different favoured stat, but they all start out being able to do ~1d8 damage every turn. Only the names change.

This is unimaginative in the extreme, and applying it to this game only encourages one-trick ponies. Never mind that Star Wars feels nothing like D&D, so I don't know why you're trying to play D&D in Star Wars.

4 hours ago, 2P51 said:

Boohoo, I think a PC should have to invest some xp before they can dispatch half a dozen threats with their mind powers, I'm so mean.

And yet they can dispatch that many threats with a good blaster rifle and a good roll and that's ok? Or heck, just swinging a lightsaber. I'm currently playing a very non-combat Padawan, and he has the absolute most basic saber type you can have. I intentionally didn't install any mods to improve it beyond base stats, because he's a healer, not a saber master. And with just a 3g1y roll, he was able to kill 3/5 minions, and the roll wasn't even that good.

So why is that perfectly ok to do to minions without requiring a ton of XP, but doing the same thing with Move is somehow broken?

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Honestly, at this point that'd probably be the best case scenario.

Well, the bickering parties taking their bickering over to private messaging instead of thread-crapping would truly be the best case scenario, but experience shows that won't be happening any time this century.

Nope, even when you tell them to their face to stop, they keep going. It's almost funny if it wasn't so annoying.

15 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

And yet they can dispatch that many threats with a good blaster rifle and a good roll and that's ok? Or heck, just swinging a lightsaber. I'm currently playing a very non-combat Padawan, and he has the absolute most basic saber type you can have. I intentionally didn't install any mods to improve it beyond base stats, because he's a healer, not a saber master. And with just a 3g1y roll, he was able to kill 3/5 minions, and the roll wasn't even that good.

So why is that perfectly ok to do to minions without requiring a ton of XP, but doing the same thing with Move is somehow broken?

Not without a gun or a lightsaber they can't. Not from range with a lightsaber.

Also given this thread's total content and context I would like to see a character, even a Joe Gun, reliably and consistently erase a minion groups of Stromtroopers numbering 10. Then of course there is the obvious issue that Joe Gun needs a gun first, whereas the Move character does not need anything except dice.

Your character won't be killing 10 with a lightsaber consistently all the time, 10, not 3 out of 5, all 10, without any Magnitude upgrades, and just 1 success if you make it a contested roll, no Advantages, just 1 success, and some Force pips. Joe Gun and Sally Lightsaber won't be doing that.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Honestly, at this point that'd probably be the best case scenario.

Well, the bickering parties taking their bickering over to private messaging instead of thread-crapping would truly be the best case scenario, but experience shows that won't be happening any time this century.

How about the people not liking the thread exercising a little personal discipline and just not clicking on it and reading? Is that an option, or is it a default setting the world has to bow and pivot around you all? That's rhetorical because the feigned outrage hypocrites post is just as likely to end.

On 8/31/2018 at 6:08 PM, 2P51 said:

How about the people not liking the thread exercising a little personal discipline and just not clicking on it and reading? Is that an option, or is it a default setting the world has to bow and pivot around you all? That's rhetorical because the feigned outrage hypocrites post is just as likely to end.

Maybe there are folks checking in to see if anything useful has been posted other than you and Decorus having what amounts to a heated lovers' quarrel over who overcooked the pasta? Excessive drama over an utterly trivial concern.

At this point, the only thing you and Decorus are doing is hurling insults at one another, which is completely nonconstructive to the purpose of this thread.

To be frank, today was the first time I'd looked into this thread in quite some time, mostly out of an apparently vain hope that the petty bickering would have subsided. But thanks for proving that hope was misplaced.