15 hours ago, 2P51 said:

No, they are not. Only when you choose to group them as a minion group. You were disingenuously trying to assert that there are rules about when and how minions are grouped, there are not. Or that there are rules for when and how that occurs during an encounter, there are not. You were asserting 'for everything' as RAW, which is not what the book says at all. You also conveniently fail to address the utter lack of common sense in regards to needing Magnitude upgrades to throw a pair of benign inanimate objects but not for throwing a half dozen stormtroopers. From a purely mechanical perspective not all mechanical possibilities are covered by the rules, but you were trying to assert via your childish bold type and dishonest and repetitive use of the acronym RAW that these issues are covered, and they are not.

Yes, they are only a group if you choose to make them a group. I never argued that. My point is, that if the GM has grouped several minions as a minion group, then they are considered a single entity . And this includes when having Move or Bind , or any other Force power or attack used against them. If he has chosen to keep his minions separate, then no, they aren't treated as a single entity for anything . But if he does group them together, then they are a single entity. Period .

7 hours ago, 2P51 said:

And you are correct. Having to have Magnitude upgrades to pick up 3 teddy bears at once in toy store, and then not needing it to launch 3 wookiees across the cantina is stupid.

It's text book rules lawyering, cherry picking the rules from one section, or in some cases a sentence, to bypass the rules about another. In this case Move and the minion grouping rule, with the latter supposed to be about ease of bookkeeping for the GM and to provide a scaling usable dice pool, as opposed to something for PCs to exploit in order to effect large numbers of individuals in a way that bypasses other rules.

No, it isn't. the three teddy bears are just three individual objects. The minion group of three Wookiees are a single unit, mechanically. Is it "rules lawyering"? Perhaps, but it is how the rules are written , and it works because it simplifies the combat for both the players and GM.

2 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

Although I'm not a fan of how he argues, TrampGraphics' argument is pretty much the RAW as I understand it. You can throw the entire minion group around without a magnitude upgrade because mechanically they are considered a single entity regardless of the number of individuals within it. However, as much as this may cause you brain to gurgle when those numbers get high you have to take into account the built in balancing mechanism of damage limitation (10 x Silhouette). This damage limitation is what's important, how you describe it is up to you. You as the GM don't have to change anything you just let the die results limit what the PC can do to the target group. Also, and this is important, if it makes sense you can always add Setback(s) to the the roll to increase the difficulty. The other thing to remember is when you add a magnitude requirement you are also adding to the damage potential because mechanically it's now two or more targets rather than a single one so make sure you can live with the results.

For example(s):

• The PC wants to take a Minion Group of five Stormtroopers who are in cover and throw them off a cliff and throwing them off that cliff will kill them. So unless they actually do enough damage to kill all five of those troopers some of them aren't going to go over the cliff. Further if they don't achieve at least one Advantage to knock them out of Cover those that don't die end up in cover at the end of the attack. How you as the GM narrate it is up to you but the end result is based on the die result. Remember the game is not on a grid so as long as they are all in the proper range band after the attack it doesn't really matter mechanically, move them or not it doesn't matter. I would not add setbacks is this case because the damage limitation is enough.
• You want to damage and move this same group of troopers from point A to specific point B, you want to move them to the other side of a chasm or behind a wall or into a busy street market so that you can escape etc.. Use the above method, but maybe add a Setback or two (depending on the size of the group) to move each individual so those that survive end up at B. You can narrate it as if all of the troopers move through the air or only some do and the others follow on foot to maintain unit cohesion or they freak out and run a bit, or whatever makes sense to you.
• You want to move this same group of troopers from point A to point B without doing damage. If this is what you want to do it's no longer a Ranged Attack it's going to be a Opposed Discipline vs Athletics check and it's perfectly reasonable to add some Setbacks depending on the size of the group. Success they end up where the Player want's them, failure they move a bit, maybe is some dramatic fashion, but the end result is mechanically no different than before the attempt, ie. narrate it any way you want but all the troopers are in the same range band and if they were behind cover they end up behind cover or whatever.
  
  The point is don't overthink it let the dice do the work for you. And don't have giant Minion Groups...

Exactly.

2 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

Although I'm not a fan of how he argues, TrampGraphics' argument is pretty much the RAW as I und  erstand it.

Tramp's argument is a rigid and singular interpretation of some nebulous definition of "RAW" which apparently is supposed to be nigh irrefutable by any player or GM.

Your suggest takes the inherent flexibility of the system, uses the spirit and intention behind the Rules as Written to come up with a perfectly reasonable adjudication to the question at hand.

To however suggest that it is unfair, illegal, or against the spirit of "Rules as Written" for a GM to instead require the use of the Magnitude upgrade in this scenario is just false. And that is where Tramp is wrong, and by his own admittance, Rules Lawyering.

6 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Tramp's argument is a rigid and singular interpretation of some nebulous definition of "RAW" which apparently is supposed to be nigh irrefutable by any player or GM.

Your suggest takes the inherent flexibility of the system, uses the spirit and intention behind the Rules as Written to come up with a perfectly reasonable adjudication to the question at hand.

To however suggest that it is unfair, illegal, or against the spirit of "Rules as Written" for a GM to instead require the use of the Magnitude upgrade in this scenario is just false. And that is where Tramp is wrong, and by his own admittance, Rules Lawyering.

Let me save you some time and typing, just don't. Don't go down that route. It will only end with multiple posts of mixed bold, bludgeoning you in the head on the subject, ad naseum. Just go with the answer of "it's my table, I'll rule it how me and my players feel is appropriate", and then just move on with your day. You will be happier for it I promise

After having caught up in this thread, I like the option of treating the troopers as a silhouette 1 object but if they want to hit multiple times (with multiple troopers) they would need to declare autofire and have enough advantage to activate it.

Other than that, it seems that the argument of a single entity vs individuals boils down to needing 1 force point to activate the magnitude (or strength) upgrades plus limiting the number of hits based in the number of magnitude upgrades purchased. Personally, (not saying RAW) i like the idea of requiring the magnitude pip to activate as it rewards players that invest in that tree. So basically, if you purchased the magnitude (or perhaps strength) then you essentially are adding autofire to your move power.

The other option would be treating it like autofire if they don't have the magnitude upgrade (making it more difficult but not requiring a force point) and then treating it like Linked (not requiring increased difficulty but requiring a force point to activat) if they have they do have the magnitude upgrade. I might even give the player the option.

My 2 creds.

I don't get the issue with thinking they would generate more than 1 Sil 1 object x10 damage, if they are being considered one object for all other purposes. If the difficulty for throwing a 5 man minion group is the same as simply throwing one minion, which is what is being debated basically, if the answer is Yes, then I say the follow up statement is "Then they also do the same amount of damage."

When talking about tossing multiple groups of minions, again, it would be no different then throwing 5 individual people, as far as requiring multiple Magnitude upgrades to pull it off, which is now getting into the realm of a much more powerful PC, and powerful PC's CAN and do, accomplish powerful things. And 5 individuals would still have the potential of doing the afore mentioned 50 damage, but you still had to lift up 5 different targets. Which again, is just as hard as 5 minion groups. It takes multiple force pips spent, which means multiple Force die to consistently pull it off, and having spent enough XP to get the magnitude upgrades to target that many ....well, targets. So again, the net result is no more broken then "I'm going to pick up those 5 random NPC background characters and throw them all at the enemy!" Mechanically, it all evens out in the wash.

If we're going to say that a 5 man minion group should do more damage, "because there are five of them in there", then they should also be equally difficult to pick up to reflect that difference.

I'm not quoting the walls of text.

The minion rules are in the adversary section for the GM to use, not for PCs to take advantage of.

There is no RAW in regards to minions being deployed in a group and that remaining a static condition for an entire encounter.

The RAW does not say say when grouped as minions that it applies to everything, because that falls apart with basic common sense or the implication is 12 stromtroopers can get use 1 jetpack, or get on 1 speeder bike.

To make the distinction that 3 inanimate objects are different from 3 animate objects is patently absurd, devoid of common sense, and in the context of this situation shameless exploitation.

4 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I'm not quoting the walls of text.

The minion rules are in the adversary section for the GM to use, not for PCs to take advantage of.

There is no RAW in regards to minions being deployed in a group and that remaining a static condition for an entire encounter.

The RAW does not say say when grouped as minions that it applies to everything, because that falls apart with basic common sense or the implication is 12 stromtroopers can get use 1 jetpack, or get on 1 speeder bike.

To make the distinction that 3 inanimate objects are different from 3 animate objects is patently absurd, devoid of common sense, and in the context of this situation shameless exploitation.

Move is an Attack . In particular, its Hurl upgrade is an attack. You are attacking one minion group with another minion group. Each group is, by RAW , a single unit for attacking and for being attacked . And, as @KungFuFerret said, the damage done is the same, whether you pick up a single minion and hurl him, or a minion group and hurl it.

If it helps, just rule that Move pulls one or more Minions out of the group (resolve against individual Minions). If they survive, they can spend maneuvers to get back to the main body of the group and join back in.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Move is an Attack . In particular, its Hurl upgrade is an attack. You are attacking one minion group with another minion group. Each group is, by RAW , a single unit for attacking and for being attacked . And, as @KungFuFerret said, the damage done is the same, whether you pick up a single minion and hurl him, or a minion group and hurl it.

I'm not arguing with individual sentences from the rules. I am pointing out there is no rule about the grouping remaining static so a GM is perfectly justified in deciding that cherry picking one rule to bypass another will be considered. That actually is a RAW.

2 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I'm not arguing with individual sentences from the rules. I am pointing out there is no rule about the grouping remaining static so a GM is perfectly justified in deciding that cherry picking one rule to bypass another will be considered. That actually is a RAW.

And I never said anything about them remaining static or otherwise. All I said, that if they are grouped, then they are treated as a single unit, and this includes when Move is used on them, just like with any other attack. So, if they are attacking as a unit, they can be attacked as a single unit as well. That includes using Move 's Hurl upgrade on them. Also, you can't just separate t hem in the middle of a round , after they have attacked, so that they have to be attacked individually, then regroup them just before they attack again simply to deny the players. That's being an adversarial GM. If you've grouped them as a single minion group, then they are a single unit, and they should remain grouped for the entire round. It's that simple.

You're moving the goal post and you know it. You were repeatedly posting RAW and your nonsensical highlighting to portray your opinion as what the rules say, and now you're backpedaling. You lack integrity.

19 hours ago, Decorus said:

Or throwing an AT-At leg I pulled off last turn and then hurled at a minion group would mean I suddenly would only damage one of the minions.

How is that at all what anyone is arguing?

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Also, you can't just separate t hem in the middle of a round , after they have attacked, so that they have to be attacked individually, then regroup them just before they attack again simply to deny the players. That's being an adversarial GM. If you've grouped them as a single minion group, then they are a single unit, and they should remain grouped for the entire round. It's that simple.

You can if you are consistent on the ruling and it is dealing with a specific instance like this. You make a ruling as a GM and explain why, when using Move against a Minion group, you count the individuals instead of the entity.

I for one would work it two ways, solely based on what I have seen in movies and shows. Whenever I see someone throwing (aiming) a person at someone or something, it has been a single entity. If you are doing a Force Push to clear a path, it can effect the group as one. If my players consider it a di** move, so be it. I try my best to make the game feel like a Star Wars story and sometimes rules get in the way and I manipulate them to enhance the game, not to restrict or punish a player.

5 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

How is that at all what anyone is arguing?

Not to mention it's just wrong. An AT-AT leg would be like a Sil 3 object in my book, so that's 30 damage right there. And if you've got a minion group where ONE minion has 30 Wound?.....I am afraid of your table then.

32 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I'm not arguing with individual sentences from the rules. I am pointing out there is no rule about the grouping remaining static so a GM is perfectly justified in deciding that cherry picking one rule to bypass another will be considered. That actually is a RAW.

The infection spreads again!

13 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

You're moving the goal post and you know it. You were repeatedly posting RAW and your nonsensical highlighting to portray your opinion as what the rules say, and now you're backpedaling. You lack integrity.

Nope. You are . I have been very consistent in saying that when grouped, they are a single unit. And as a single unit , then Move's hurl upgrade moves the entire unit as a single entity as well. That is RAW. You are the one bringing up the whole "they can be separated" bit, and I never denied that. That's not the point. The point is that when they are a group, minions are treated as a single entity. That means, that the player can use Move's hurl upgrade on them as a single unit as well since they are being attacked as a single unit. And even if the GM later decides to separate his minions, he still has to wait until the current round is over. He can't do it in the middle of a round. The minions are either a group for the entire round, or they are individuals for that entire round. It's one or the other.

2 minutes ago, Varlie said:

You can if you are consistent on the ruling and it is dealing with a specific instance like this. You make a ruling as a GM and explain why, when using Move against a Minion group, you count the individuals instead of the entity.

I for one would work it two ways, solely based on what I have seen in movies and shows. Whenever I see someone throwing (aiming) a person at someone or something, it has been a single entity. If you are doing a Force Push to clear a path, it can effect the group as one. If my players consider it a di** move, so be it. I try my best to make the game feel like a Star Wars story and sometimes rules get in the way and I manipulate them to enhance the game, not to restrict or punish a player.

And doing so, would be breaking the rules as written .

Okay folks, let's try another tack.

I think we all agree that the RAW allows the whole Minion Group, regardless of the number of individuals within that group, to be affected using the Move Power without a Magnitude upgrade. We also agree that the GM can adjudicate it differently and require a Magnitude upgrade or some other remedy if they think its necessary. The point of contention seems to be when is it necessary and at what point does it feel like the GM is arbitrarily screwing the Players.

So the questions I ask myself when I'm about to change the RAW for whatever reason is why am I doing it, what result am I looking for, and is it going to screw up something later in the game, and what effect is it going to have on my Players (no I'm not having a long, philosophical, internal dialogue every time but this is my basic thinking).

So, whoever is interested answer the following: in the case of the Move what is the reason for not treating a Minion Group as a single target? What result are you trying to achieve? How will your change achieve this result? Is it going to set a president that is going to cause a problem in the future? And finally how are your Players going to feel about it?

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Also  , you can't just separate t hem in the middle of a round , after they have attacked, so that they have to be attacked individually,  then regroup them just before they attack again simply to deny the players. That's being an adversarial GM. If you've grouped  them as a single minion group, then they are a single unit, and they should remain grouped for the entire round. It's that simple. 

And how is that at all what anyone is arguing?

Look: you can can hurl a stormtrooper minion from a group using the Strength & Control/Hurl upgrades. You use the stormtrooper as a projectile and fling him into another minion group. That minion is likely toast, and any damage that he takes that exceeds his part of the shared wound threshold carries over to the minion group that he was a part of, and the same amount of damage is inflicted on the other minion group, probably taking out one or two of them. At no point does the flung stormtrooper cease to be a part of his original minion group (until he dies, of course).

This is all just business as usual. Narrate it and move on.

You can make it more powerful by also activating the Magnitude upgrade and using autofire rules (as detailed in the Move power text) to fling multiple stormtroopers and cause damage for each one flung.

At no point are any rules being broken or GMs being adversarial.

Secondly, are you arguing for non-adversarial GMs or sticking to RAW?

Thirdly, you still haven't addressed my point that minions can move independently of each other, which seems to invalidate your argument that minions are considered a single unit for everything.

2 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

Okay folks, let's try another tack.

I think we all agree that the RAW allows the whole Minion Group, regardless of the number of individuals within that group, to be affected using the Move Power without a Magnitude upgrade. We also agree that the GM can adjudicate it differently and require a Magnitude upgrade or some other remedy if they think its necessary. The point of contention seems to be when is it necessary and at what point does it feel like the GM is arbitrarily screwing the Players.

So the questions I ask myself when I'm about to change the RAW for whatever reason is why am I doing it, what result am I looking for, and is it going to screw up something later in the game, and what effect is it going to have on my Players (no I'm not having a long, philosophical, internal dialogue every time but this is my basic thinking).

So, whoever is interested answer the following: in the case of the Move what is the reason for not treating a Minion Group as a single target? What result are you trying to achieve? Is it going to set a president that is going to cause a problem in the future? And finally how are your Players going to feel about it?

I can't answer the first two questions, but I can answer the last two. Yes, I feel it does set a bad precedent, that could cause a problem in the future, and yes, as a player, I would feel I would be getting a raw deal, and as a GM would never do that to a player.

1 minute ago, awayputurwpn said:

And how is that at all what anyone is arguing?

Look: you can can hurl a stormtrooper minion from a group using the Strength & Control/Hurl upgrades. You use the stormtrooper as a projectile and fling him into another minion group. That minion is likely toast, and any damage that he takes that exceeds his part of the shared wound threshold carries over to the minion group that he was a part of, and the same amount of damage is inflicted on the other minion group, probably taking out one or two of them. At no point does the flung stormtrooper cease to be a part of his original minion group (until he dies, of course).

This is all just business as usual. Narrate it and move on.

You can make it more powerful by also activating the Magnitude upgrade and using autofire rules (as detailed in the Move power text) to fling multiple stormtroopers and cause damage for each one flung.

At no point are any rules being broken or GMs being adversarial.

Secondly, are you arguing for non-adversarial GMs or sticking to RAW?

Thirdly, you still haven't addressed my point that minions can move independently of each other, which seems to invalidate your argument that minions are considered a single unit for everything.

Yes, if the GM has previously set them up as individuals . However, if he has grouped them together as a minion group , however, then, by RAW, they are attacked as a single unit, and this includes using Move , or any other Force Power, to attack them as well. A minion group is treated as a single entity for combat, both for attacking, and being attacked. So, if a player is using the Force on a minion group, it is the group as a whole that is affected, not just one member of that group.

11 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

So, whoever is interested answer the following: in the case of the Move what is the reason for not treating a Minion Group as a single target? What result are you trying to achieve? How will your change achieve this result? Is it going to set a president that is going to cause a problem in the future? And finally how are your Players going to feel about it?

There is no hard fast rule for how I would adjudicated this in isolation. My answer was in relation to the OP, which I suggested I would use the magnitude upgrade. There is never going to be 100% black and white "this is always how I do it" at my table, the plot and story dictates much of it.

The results I am trying to achieve are to have fun with like minded individuals at my table.

Personally I would be shocked if any player that has played at my tables would be so outraged if I required them to activate the magnitude upgrade to throw 5 stormtroopers just because they were in some sort of "minion group". If that offends you as a player, I am just not sure what to say. Maybe you've just had too many douchbag GMs in the past or something.

5 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

So, whoever is interested answer the following: in the case of the Move what is the reason for not treating a Minion Group as a single target? What result are you trying to achieve? How will your change achieve this result? Is it going to set a president that is going to cause a problem in the future? And finally how are your Players going to feel about it?

I would be trying to give a solid feel for how prodigious one is in the Force.

Scenario A: Liam Coldflame is a Jedi padawan and is making his way through the Move power tree, with Strength x2, Magnitude X1, and Range x3, along with a couple control upgrades. He is leading a band of Rebel soldiers through a perilous jungle. His group of soldiers take a misstep and the ground beneath them crumbles, and they begin to fall towards the river 1,000 feet below, as people are wont to do in Star Wars. So Liam reaches out with the Force, generating 3 Light Side points on his two Force dice! Huzzah. He activates Strength once and Magnitude once, and since he was at Short range, he is able to grab hold of two of his comrades. The third falls, and Liam is unable to save him. Liam feels gravely responsible for this tragedy and vows that he will never again allow a soldier under his care to perish. "I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!" says Liam.

Scenario B: Arast is a master of the Jedi arts, but would not call himself a Jedi. He walks his own path. Still, with a Force rating of 4 and the Move tree maxed out, he is more than capable of doing unbelievable things with the power of his mind. The same group of Rebel soldiers are marching through the jungle, and they start to fall. From a half kilometer away, Arast seizes all 6 of them with the power of the Force, gently halting the deadly fall. He sets them back on solid ground, and straightens their helmets and ammo packs, all from shouting distance.

I can work up scenarios where it's used in an offensive way, but perhaps you see where I'm coming from?

1 minute ago, awayputurwpn said:

I would be trying to give a solid feel for how prodigious one is in the Force.

Scenario A: Liam Coldflame is a Jedi padawan and is making his way through the Move power tree, with Strength x2, Magnitude X1, and Range x3, along with a couple control upgrades. He is leading a band of Rebel soldiers through a perilous jungle. His group of soldiers take a misstep and the ground beneath them crumbles, and they begin to fall towards the river 1,000 feet below, as people are wont to do in Star Wars. So Liam reaches out with the Force, generating 3 Light Side points on his two Force dice! Huzzah. He activates Strength once and Magnitude once, and since he was at Short range, he is able to grab hold of two of his comrades. The third falls, and Liam is unable to save him. Liam feels gravely responsible for this tragedy and vows that he will never again allow a soldier under his care to perish. "I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!" says Liam.

Scenario B: Arast is a master of the Jedi arts, but would not call himself a Jedi. He walks his own path. Still, with a Force rating of 4 and the Move tree maxed out, he is more than capable of doing unbelievable things with the power of his mind. The same group of Rebel soldiers are marching through the jungle, and they start to fall. From a half kilometer away, Arast seizes all 6 of them with the power of the Force, gently halting the deadly fall. He sets them back on solid ground, and straightens their helmets and ammo packs, all from shouting distance.

I can work up scenarios where it's used in an offensive way, but perhaps you see where I'm coming from?

And in that same situation, I would rule that he saved all three since they are a single minion group, and thus a single unit, just by his using the Strength upgrade alone.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And in that same situation, I would rule that he saved all three since they are a single minion group, and thus a single unit, just by his using the Strength upgrade alone.

Why would they be a single minion group at that point? They're walking through the jungle, that's not combat. So move isn't used in a combat sense in a combat scenario. It's used against 3 individuals, who happen to be minions, who were walking along a path.

5 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

Why would they be a single minion group at that point? They're walking through the jungle, that's not combat. So move isn't used in a combat sense in a combat scenario. It's used against 3 individuals, who happen to be minions, who were walking along a path.

They're a squad of troopers, a group, that's a single unit. They attack as a group their enemies, they use skills as a group , and thus are affected as a group, Just because they're your allies doesn't change this. If they're set up as a minion group, then they are a single unit.