I think TG's point is to consistency. It is up to the GM to decide but it's also important that those decisions are consistent within the game otherwise they will seem arbitrary and arbitrary tends to look unfair. Another way to look at it is to step back for a moment and substitute Auto Fire for Move and Minion Groups, would you apply the same ruling and insist on adding a difficulty die for each minion in the group or would you just count the group once? Regardless of your answer whatever you do be consistent.

It's easy confuse Mechanics for Narration, in this case it may make narrative sense to look at the minion group as individuals because there are so many it just makes sense that you can't move them all, but mechanically you shouldn't think that way because there is already a balancing mechanism built in. That mechanism is that regardless of how many individuals are in the group you only get damage results as if it were a single enemy. So there is no need to make it more difficult by requiring more Force points and upgrades and such, just narrate it so that it fits the scene.

1 minute ago, FuriousGreg said:

It's easy confuse Mechanics for Narration, in this case it may make narrative sense to look at the minion group as individuals because there are so many it just makes sense that you can't move them all, but mechanically you shouldn't think that way because there is already a balancing mechanism built in. That mechanism is that regardless of how many individuals are in the group you only get damage results as if it were a single enemy. So there is no need to make it more difficult by requiring more Force points and upgrades and such, just narrate it so that it fits the scene.

There are reasons to use Move that don't care about damage, such as lifting a group of bystanders out of the path of a charging beast or out-of-control vehicle. In such a case, those Minions are probably not grouped and the drama comes from seeing how many you can rescue, but there may be times where Minion groups of allies are going to be the target of a friendly Move (especially if you are leading a squad of them).

6 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

There is no rule that states if minions are grouped or not is static within a combat, your highlighting in bold doesn't make it so.

Just like there is no rule in regards to the range they can be grouped with each other which potentially raises issues in regards to how to apply Blast and Autofire.

You're typing alot of things in bold and RAW and trying to present these are hard and fast definitive rules and they aren't.

1 minute ago, FuriousGreg said:

I think TG's point is to consistency. It is up to the GM to decide but it's also important that those decisions are consistent within the game otherwise they will seem arbitrary and arbitrary tends to look unfair. Another way to look at it is to step back for a moment and substitute Auto Fire for Move and Minion Groups, would you apply the same ruling and insist on adding a difficulty die for each minion in the group or would you just count the group once? Regardless of your answer whatever you do be consistent.

It's easy confuse Mechanics for Narration, in this case it may make narrative sense to look at the minion group as individuals because there are so many it just makes sense that you can't move them all, but mechanically you shouldn't think that way because there is already a balancing mechanism built in. That mechanism is that regardless of how many individuals are in the group you only get damage results as if it were a single enemy. So there is no need to make it more difficult by requiring more Force points and upgrades and such, just narrate it so that it fits the scene.

Exactly. If you aren't consistent with your ruling, it becomes arbitrary, and thus unfair to the players. The RAW says that a minion group is treated as a single unit, it attacks as a single unit . It is targeted as a single unit, it has the same pool of Wound points, the same skill suite, etc. For consistency's sake, that means a minion group is a single unit for everything, not only for some things. That means, if the group attacks you as a single unit , you can use Move against them as a single unit . It's one or the other. The minions are either grouped as a single unit for everything, or they're individuals for everything.

4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

There are reasons to use Move that don't care about damage, such as lifting a group of bystanders out of the path of a charging beast or out-of-control vehicle. In such a case, those Minions are probably not grouped and the drama comes from seeing how many you can rescue, but there may be times where Minion groups of allies are going to be the target of a friendly Move (especially if you are leading a squad of them).

I would rule them as a minion group in that scenario as well, particularly if they're all the same "type" of Minion (which they'd have to be in order to group them).

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Exactly. If you aren't consistent with your ruling, it becomes arbitrary, and thus unfair to the players. The RAW says that a minion group is treated as a single unit, it attacks as a single unit . It is targeted as a single unit, it has the same pool of Wound points, the same skill suite, etc. For consistency's sake, that means a minion group is a single unit for everything, not only for some things. That means, if the group attacks you as a single unit , you can use Move against them as a single unit . It's one or the other. The minions are either grouped as a single unit for everything, or they're individuals for everything.

I'm aware of the rules and the concept of consistency, neither makes something RAW, which is how you were presenting your point. You're being disingenuous.

Consistency doesn't mean that additions can't be made to rules where they are lacking, and in this case the RAW do not cover what the OP asked for input on, and as I have pointed out, they do no address issues such as range, or the comedic lack of common sense in regards to Magnitude upgrades are required in order to move a pair of lamps but not a trio of Stormtroopers. You can't be inconsistent or consistent with something that isn't covered.

2 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I'm aware of the rules and the concept of consistency, neither makes something RAW, which is how you were presenting your point. You're being disingenuous.

Consistency doesn't mean that additions can't be made to rules where they are lacking, and in this case the RAW do not cover what the OP asked for input on, and as I have pointed out, they do no address issues such as range, or the comedic lack of common sense in regards to Magnitude upgrades are required in order to move a pair of lamps but not a trio of Stormtroopers. You can't be inconsistent or consistent with something that isn't covered.

And that is where we disagree. The RAW says that a minion group is treated as a single unit for everything , be it when it attacks, when it is attacked , when it makes a skill check, when it takes damage, etc. Ergo, since using Move to hurl a minion group at another Minion group is an attack , you use the Move power on that minion group as a single unit, just like any other attack.

And with this scenario.. This would be 10 wounds for the group being thrown and 10 wounds for the group that is being targeted?

Do we agree on that?

1 minute ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

And with this scenario.. This would be 10 wounds for the group being thrown and 10 wounds for the group that is being targeted?

Do we agree on that?

Yep, though, if you want to increase the first group's silhouette by one (which even the Devs have said is a viable option), that would be 20 wounds to each. Ouch.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And that is where we disagree. The RAW says that a minion group is treated as a single unit for everything , be it when it attacks, when it is attacked , when it makes a skill check, when it takes damage, etc. Ergo, since using Move to hurl a minion group at another Minion group is an attack , you use the Move power on that minion group as a single unit, just like any other attack.

" a minion group is treated as a single unit for everything" You can type in bold all you want, but this is fiction, no where is this printed in the 3 CRBs, so it is not RAW.

Okay, sounds good. Still not sure if I'll run the RAW for this at my table. I may just have it be 1 red dice for the roll if it's a minion group. As it would, in my opinion, be more difficult to throw a group. Even if they are considered 1 target.

3 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

" a minion group is treated as a single unit for everything" You can type in bold all you want, but this is fiction, no where is this printed in the 3 CRBs, so it is not RAW.

RAW says that a minion group attacks as a single unit . It says that a minion group is attacked as a single unit . It says that a minion group shares the same pool of wound points . It says that a minion group shares the same pool of skills . etc. So, yes, a minion group is treated as a single unit for everything .

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

RAW says that a minion group attacks as a single unit . It says that a minion group is attacked as a single unit . It says that a minion group shares the same pool of wound points . It says that a minion group shares the same pool of skills . etc. So, yes, a minion group is treated as a single unit for everything .

You can type in bold all you like, the for everything is opinion, not RAW.

27 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

And with this scenario.. This would be 10 wounds for the group being thrown and 10 wounds for the group that is being targeted?

Do we agree on that?

Personally I find doing 10 wounds to two targets using the same result that would normally do 10 wounds to one unbalanced, and would rule differently.

28 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

And with this scenario.. This would be 10 wounds for the group being thrown and 10 wounds for the group that is being targeted?

Do we agree on that?

I would, and I'd allow a crit on the thrown and the receivers.

20 minutes ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

Okay, sounds good. Still not sure if I'll run the RAW for this at my table. I may just have it be 1 red dice for the roll if it's a minion group. As it would, in my opinion, be more difficult to throw a group. Even if they are considered 1 target.

I agree it's more Difficult, and I would def use Setbacks if there are handholds or stuff to assist the group in not being tossed.

9 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

You can type in bold all you like, the for everything is opinion, not RAW.

Page 400 of the F&D core rules says that a minion group attacks as a single unit. It also says that a minion group is attacked as a single unit, that it shares the same pool of wound points among all members, as well as the same pool of skills. In fact, it is only as a group that minions can even use skills. That is not opinion. That is RAW.

Just now, Darzil said:

Personally I find doing 10 wounds to two targets using the same result that would normally do 10 wounds to one unbalanced, and would rule differently.

It's not that. By RAW, when you use the Hurl upgrade to hurl something (or someone) at a target, both the target being hit, as well as the "object" being hurled take the same damage. It's in the rules.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Page 400 of the F&D core rules says that a minion group attacks as a single unit. It also says that a minion group is attacked as a single unit, that it shares the same pool of wound points among all members, as well as the same pool of skills. In fact, it is only as a group that minions can even use skills. That is not opinion. That is RAW.

It's not that. By RAW, when you use the Hurl upgrade to hurl something (or someone) at a target, both the target being hit, as well as the "object" being hurled take the same damage. It's in the rules.

Dude I'm done, I'm aware of what is actually written and what isn't and I don't have to blend the two to make points.

It's also designed around hitting a target with an object. Throwing a statue at a person doesn't do the same damage as throwing a person at a person, even if they are the same size.

I understand that despite no mention of using Move on anything other than objects, as a person is a subset of objects, it is acceptable by raw. But I prefer to consider the narrative. If you throw a squishy thing at a squishy thing they will share the damage.

I only say what I would do, I am not claiming RAW.

1 minute ago, Darzil said:

It's also designed around hitting a target with an object. Throwing a statue at a person doesn't do the same damage as throwing a person at a person, even if they are the same size.

I understand that despite no mention of using Move on anything other than objects, as a person is a subset of objects, it is acceptable by raw. But I prefer to consider the narrative. If you throw a squishy thing at a squishy thing they will share the damage.

I only say what I would do, I am not claiming RAW.

Well, they are sharing the same damage, that's what the rule says. Both take the same amount of damage. The difference is that, depending upon what's(or who's) being thrown, one or the other may be able to survive that damage better than the other. In the case of the statue vs a human. Both take 10 damage, per RAW, but, depending upon what that statue is made of, it may have more or less "wound points" than the human being hit. As such, it may survive being hurled better than the human being hit, or it may shatter on impact, with the human surviving the damage more easily. The damage is the same, but the results of that damage may vary.

52 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

" a minion group is treated as a single unit for everything" You can type in bold all you want, but this is fiction, no where is this printed in the 3 CRBs, so it is not RAW.

That means a minion group of six Imperial Pilots can all fit in the cockpit of a TIE fighter, right? That would make TIEs more deadly...

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

That means a minion group of six Imperial Pilots can all fit in the cockpit of a TIE fighter, right? That would make TIEs more deadly...

No, but a minion group of tie fighters piloted by those pilots would be a single unit.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

That means a minion group of six Imperial Pilots can all fit in the cockpit of a TIE fighter, right? That would make TIEs more deadly...

I was thinking 10 guys in a phone booth analogy, but your's is more genre accurate...

Okay, a few people here are kinda talking past each other and covering the same ground over and over, so let me suggest we step back for a moment.

So what is the real issue here? From what I've gathered from the OP's post he was interested in damage potential and the size of the Minion group during Combat. Others seem to be stuck on the narrative aspect of the larger group and are applying that to the mechanics, more individuals = harder to do.

First I'll cover Combat. This is how I do it. The important thing isn't how many individuals are in the target Minion group. I treat a Minion Group as a single Sil 1 target as per RAW and I let the dice tell me how many within the group are moved a significant amount by counting the number of dead and injured from the resulting damage and Advantages: 10xSil + Successes + Crit (if you get one) damage + Advantages. Anyone dead or injured from damage got moved for sure, if you have Advantages to spend knocking NPCs out of cover (1 Adv) or even if they aren't in cover then they get moved too but not enough to hurt them. For me it's only important if it makes a difference in Combat everything else is narration. If my Player wants to do more damage to the Minion Group by moving them around then I have allowed them to up the Sil (ie. increase the power), and follow the same equation as above only now because it's 10xSil base damage more individuals are going to die so more get moved. The point is the result, the more pips you choose to spend the bigger the result. It's simple, it's RAW, it works pretty well.

Outside of Combat. Now I have to admit this hasn't come up yet, I don't know why just lucky I guess but this is how I would deal with it. Depending on what result the Player wanted if they were to move a large minion group I would run it pretty similar to combat except that no one gets damaged. If the Player needs to guarantee a number of minions get moved then they up the power they use. Don't over think it, let the dice do their job K.I.S.S.

@FuriousGreg thanks for the response! Puts the whole difficulty issue into better perspective. Great way to narrate it as well.

Just curious though, since technically they are all one unit, wouldn't they all be moved still even if they weren't knocked out? The ability to move them was still successful they just weren't all taken out.

1 hour ago, Quigonjinnandjuice said:

@FuriousGreg thanks for the response! Puts the whole difficulty issue into better perspective. Great way to narrate it as well.

Just curious though, since technically they are all one unit, wouldn't they all be moved still even if they weren't knocked out? The ability to move them was still successful they just weren't all taken out.

Depends, you'd only need a single Advantage to force a target out of cover so it's perfectly reasonable to move them all, even if they weren't in cover, if you have that Advantage. If you didn't get an Advantage then those remaining may have been moved as part of the narration but recovered or something and they remain in the same place they were in. At least that's how I play it. It comes back to having the roll determine the mechanical results and the GM's narration for everything else.

I had a situation where a PC used move to push a Minion group of 4 Stormtroopers off a bridge. So I gave the Player the choice as I laid out in my previous post with each "kill" being a trooper tossed off, any wounded are hanging on to the edge, and the remainder pushed up against the railing or something, if he got an Advantage he could place them anywhere reasonable within short range (except over the edge). I allowed him to either use a Magnitude upgrade and I'd split the Minion group or a Strength upgrade adding a silhouette for damage, either way the result would be the same. It ended up with two troopers over the edge, one hanging on for dear life and the last one one his a$$ against the railing.

What I did, as far as I can tell, is all RAW with the possible exception of the Silhouette option I really don't know if there is any RAW that actually changes the Silhouette of a Minion Group based on the number of individuals. It makes sense that you should be able to adjust it to the number of individuals in it if you want to but since it's not actually required you don't have to. I gave the option to split the Minion Group because as the GM I can do split a group at any time but I left it up to him (I did make him choose before rolling though).