I was trying to come up with a list focused on reducing defense dice and maximizing attack dice efficiency, but I could use some help because it feels unpolished. The general idea is to flank with Arvel and then cut in at the first engagement and fly into range 0 of something and unload on it. Dutch will generally pass his lock onto Ten Numb since he'll mostly be focusing and barrel rolling. Wedge can target lock two things so he always has options.

Thoughts?

Expert handling seems a must on Dutch, to avoid unneeded stress, and it's fairly cheap.

How does this sound?

View in YASB 2.0

The idea is that Ten can either token strip for others who are longer range, or just open up with a stress-based primary weapon, while Wedge does Wedge things, same with Arvel.

If you notice, the new Dutch is 3 points less, but, can make better use of both his ability, and his action bar by using Ion Torpedoes over a turret. While I am yet to get some 2.0 in, I've had more success with torps on Y-wings than I have turrets.

I tried to put together a similar list using Endor Squadron leaders as a theme, so I had Horton instead of Dutch.

Horton is 4 points cheaper than Dutch and I still feel like the list came out very anaemic. I think trying to do this with named pilots is just trying to squeeze too much in. You can run Arvel + Red, Blade and Gold Squadron Veterans all at IN 3 with a lot more upgrades spread around.

With that in mind, some points on your list in general:

I think if you're running a naked, named B-Wing that Braylen might be a better choice. Yes, you don't get to remove your stress once you've got it, but you're also much more likely to trigger Braylen's ability now. Ten's reliance on at least one eye result coming up makes him a little too RNG for me. Braylen is the same cost, same initiative and for me the more consistent choice.

Dutch needs torps. It just works way better with his ability and optimum action selection. If you want a turret Y-Wing in there, go for Horton and pair him with Arvel to trigger his ability. It will also save you some points that can go on Elusive or Debris Gambit on Ten, or Selfless on Braylen if you choose to switch, or HLC on the B-Wing or a talent for either Wedge or Horton.

Torps + Expert Handling Dutch is also three points cheaper than the turret version.

I'd encourage using one of those points to get Crack Shot on Wedge. Save it for a range 1 shot, and between CS and Wedge's ability you'll basically have a one off high burst damage attack for relatively little investment. It works nicely here because Wedge is usually shooting at targets with tokens, but those tokens don't matter if they're only rolling 1 or 2 defence dice, and one of those results is getting cancelled no matter what tokens are spent.

Thanks so much guys! I like Damo1701's list, and I appreciate the feedback.

What are your thoughts on trick shot on Wedge instead of Crack Shot? I was liking Trick shot because then Wedge gets the extra attack die but the defender doesn't get the extra defense die.

Also, I think I saw an interesting list with Ten Numb running Trick Shot and Collision Detector and Evaan Verlaine and Luke instead of Wedge (but with no Arvel). Idea being that Luke flanks while Ten and Evaan find a rock to hide behind. I wonder if that could work with Wedge and Arvel.

6 minutes ago, knute said:

Thanks so much guys! I like Damo1701's list, and I appreciate the feedback.

What are your thoughts on trick shot on Wedge instead of Crack Shot? I was liking Trick shot because then Wedge gets the extra attack die but the defender doesn't get the extra defense die.

Also, I think I saw an interesting list with Ten Numb running Trick Shot and Collision Detector and Evaan Verlaine and Luke instead of Wedge (but with no Arvel). Idea being that Luke flanks while Ten and Evaan find a rock to hide behind. I wonder if that could work with Wedge and Arvel.

Thanks ?

Trick shot is almost as situational as Crack Shot or anything else requiring bullseye. However, it's almost required if you face dash often, or players who like to dance in obstacles. So, depends on what you face more frequently.

Personally, I'm having issues building a Luke that looks somewhat reliable and survivable, for reasonable points. I guess it depends on what you like to fly although, with his I7 force power, he does get buffed.

49 minutes ago, knute said:

What are your thoughts on trick shot on Wedge instead of Crack Shot? I was liking Trick shot because then Wedge gets the extra attack die but the defender doesn't get the extra defense die.

Trick Shot looks great too.

I go back and forth between Trick and Crack on Wedge all the time. I think it all comes down to how you want to handle range. X-Wings have gained an extra gill, but they're still a little squishy with only 6HP behind 2 greens. I think range control is important for them, and with Wedge's ability to effectively remove their range 3 bonus, he suits engaging at range. But if you want to stay at range, and maybe use rocks for cover, I think Wedge wants to be carrying torpedoes.

Alternatively, if you can't afford torpedoes then you want to be getting those 4 dice attacks by getting to range 1 and using the primary. This is where Crack Shot shines, as it's much easier to get a bullseye at range 1.

So in general, I'd say Trick Shot if you've got room for torps and you want to keep Wedge at range, and are therefore more likely to be shooting through rocks. Crack Shot if you want to keep him cheap and are happy to use his high IN and repositioning actions to get to range 1.

1 hour ago, knute said:

Also, I think I saw an interesting list with Ten Numb running Trick Shot and Collision Detector and Evaan Verlaine and Luke instead of Wedge (but with no Arvel). Idea being that Luke flanks while Ten and Evaan find a rock to hide behind. I wonder if that could work with Wedge and Arvel.

It's doable, but again you have to run most of the ships pretty light.

Tanky Ten does look fun. IIRC it's Ten + Trick Shot + Collision Detector and Stealth Device with Evaan behind him for a total of four green dice. You can fit that in with an R3 Crack Wedge and Intimidation Arvel, but running Wedge as a flanker like that I think would benefit from Afterburners, and if you do that there's no room for any upgrades on Evaan except Trick Shot... and no bid for Wedge. I think Supernatural Luke to make points for turrets and gunners on Evaan just makes more sense.

Yeah, I tried out the points for a tank Ten list and wasn't really feeling it. I might be out of left field on this one, but I think 4-ship rebels is going to be better, generally, than 3-ship rebels.

Wonder if I could get a decent 4-ship rebel list with Luke...

4-ship Rebel build including Luke you say? without knowing how many of what you plan to get, it's difficult, but, there is this: View in YASB 2.0

Obviously, Luke is there to do Luke things and try to annoy the enemy, while the zippers nip in and blast stuff hard.

I was tinkering around with YASB 2.0 and I discovered Lt. Blount in the Z-95. I came with this, which I think fits more in with the theme of the list, and also adds a bunch of ordinance. Thoughts?rime Points: 2ft)

If the idea is to use Blount as a second round 'Beta' strike, then I think I like it.

The problem with any ordnance heavy list is that requires a lot to happen in a short space of time to go right. When you've only got a limited number of shots, you want to make sure you make the absolute most of them. Usually, that means you only want to shoot when you have full mods. Intimidation Arvel is obviously great at helping you make the most of it, because he makes it easier to push large amounts of damage through - but you need to roll that damage first.

Wedge is obviously fine here. Dutch moves to range 3, locks to fire his own torps and - assuming you've flown sensibly and were both just outside of range 3 the turn before - he can give Wedge a lock thanks to ignoring range restrictions. That means Wedge is then free to move, take a focus and now he has double mods.

Problem is that Dutch doesn't. He's firing after Wedge, so maybe it doesn't matter so much but still.

That's then compounded by what you're trying to do with Blount. See, he can't shoot at range 3. He needs 1-2 and preferably 1 because that bullseye arc is easier to line up the closer you are.

What that means you're doing is trying to move an I3 A-Wing such that it blocks or bumps an enemy. Then move a Y-Wing to range 3 of that ship, keeping it in arc, and a Z-95 into range 1 of the same ship, with bullseye arc in the same initiative phase. Then you're moving an X-Wing into range 3 of a ship that already has three other ships pointed at it. Doesn't matter what that ship is, all that ordnance should kill it. But for it to trigger, Dutch will have a target lock with no focus, and Blount a focus with no lock. Even with Arvel there to help, you're not maximising your ordnance. And either way, it's a lot of careful maneuvering and balancing four different dials, all without repositioning (because you need those actions for focus and TLs).

The question then becomes - is it better to have three partially modded ordnance shots, or two fully modded ordnance shots? Is three shots wasteful? Will you really need all three? Are you good enough with maneuevers and board awareness to get all four of those ships into their different, precise required positions?

The other option, of course, is to slow roll with Blount and just let Wedge and Dutch take the opening alpha. Keep Blount back at range 3 with them, let him target lock a different ship, that you plan to Arvel bump next turn and then focus with him for full mods when you're in range. And if that is the plan, then yeah I think I like it. It's not giving you a massive attack right out the gate, but it is maximising your limited number of high red dice shots.

I wish there were a way to give Dutch a focus in that opening round.

One thing I'm wondering about is dropping the Prockets down to Cluster Missiles on Blount, dropping the Munitions Failsafe entirely and giving Blount Squad Leader instead. It means you can keep Blount with Dutch, co-ordinate a focus onto him for the opening double torp short, and then Dutch can return the favour next round by giving Blount a lock while he focuses. His ability means you're still getting a four dice attack (yes, it's no six dice attack but it's still decent) but you get more of them.

You'd have to dial blues for both Blount and Dutch, and that might not be so easy to keep arc on an enemy. But it's an idea, anyway. Or ****, just run Airen with Homing Missile. That probably synergises with Dutch way better, to be honest. Dutch gets both him and Airen the target lock at range 3, Airen takes a focus and shoots first and either they gamble on the dice and you get a chance to token strip, or you do a guaranteed damage. The Airen triggers a focus on Dutch, who gets to shoot after him with full mods.

Wedge loses his support, but he might be better off doing his own thing anyway. Between R3 and being I6, he's got plenty of opportunity to get his own target locks, save one for later and focus for that. His ability plus Arvel might mean that a target lock re-roll is sufficient by itself to put damage through.

If you need the points you can also take Advanced Protons on the y wing instead of protons. You save some points, and you only get one charge, but the Y wing also has the reload so you can fly away when not in combat and reload your one torpedo.

In my one 2.0 game that I played so far (Dutch and Norra in y wings and Jake in an A) the target lock was more than satisfactory with Dutch. Because APT no longer has the blank to focus ability you are always getting more use out of it without having a focus token, and with decent rolls you should usually have 3-4 hits at least (one of which becomes a crit). You can also just lock at range three with Dutch, give the lock to Wedge (who is hopefully a bit behind), move in and focus with Dutch for the range one APT and Wedge with focus for the range three Protons. Move away and reload with the Y (or if you have the points follow up by blasting an astroid to smithereens with siesmics and destroying something else ) and follow up with more ordanance and shenanigans with Arvel and Blount to keep pounding a second ship while you regroup. Giving Wedge and/or Dutch an essentially free round to turn around (and reload with Dutch) could work well for returning into engagement with more mods and such.

Just a suggestion. The build looks awesome, and if you are dead set on Protons you will have no issue blasting stuff either way. Great work!

Best,

Thanks for all the feedback!

Regarding Proton Rockets, I hadn't realized they were bullseye arc only. But Homing Missiles seems kinda weak too. What about Ion Missiles? I do like the suggestion about Airen Cracken over Lt. Blount and I definitely have the points for it if I drop P. Rockets and munitions.

Also, I just realized Arvel is Initiative 3, which means his ability will essentially be worthless against aces. Would Swarm Tactics on Wedge be something to consider?

Maybe something along the lines of this:

2 hours ago, knute said:

Regarding Proton Rockets, I hadn't realized they were bullseye arc only. But Homing Missiles seems kinda weak too.

Yeah, there's a lot of adjusting from 1e that needs to be done. I kept forgetting that Crack Shot was primary only for the longest time.

Homing Missiles are a bit niche, but I think they have the potential to be great for the cost. The key is recognising how they're meant to be used, and that is as ace hunters. You want to be firing them against high agility, low health targets. Fire one against Soontir Fel, for example, and he has a really difficult decision to make. 1 damage is a third of his HP, and chipping away at him like that is a really reliable way to get him off the board (assuming you can get arc, of course). But with those three green dice and a token or two, the temptation is definitely there to gamble and roll the dice. He could well end up evading all the damage. But he could also totally whiff and get hit by three damage off four dice. Either way, you win in almost all cases. Either he takes an unavoidable damage, or you're getting a chance to shoot him with 4 dice.

The trick is, of course, going to be getting arc. But in theory that's exactly where Arvel comes in.

Depending on when that one damage hits, it can even be decent against high health, low agility targets. A Decimator or Ghost might not care so much about one measly damage usually, but if you've already managed to sneak a Hull Breach crit on there...

2 hours ago, knute said:

Also, I just realized Arvel is Initiative 3, which means his ability will essentially be worthless against aces.

The part of his ability that lets you partially boost into a bump won't be so useful against higher Init aces, no. But the part of his ability where he gets to shoot at range 3 is still very useful, as is the part where he gets to do that against reduced agility thanks to Intimidation. With his dial, action bar and ship ability, Arvel is one of the best ships in the game to perfectly position right where you expect an enemy to land.

Don't forget that it doesn't matter if they're Soontir Fel with I6 and double reposition, they're still dialing in their maneuver before anyone has moved, and they can't change that dial after Arvel goes. All you have to is guess their maneuver correctly, and their Init and reposition actions become irrelevant.

Arvel then gets to shoot at a tokenless, reduced agility ship.

I'd almost say he's better when you're blocking and not having to use boost to bump into a target that's already activated.

2 hours ago, knute said:

What about Ion Missiles?

Decent shout too, I think. If you do it right, it makes it absolutely trivial for Arvel to block next turn (assuming relative positions mean there's a maneuver to do so that's possible).

It helps Dutch chase targets, which he's not the best at.

My only reservation is that it probably means you have to spread fire a little. Unless you're going after a big fat large base, the intention of the opening torp volley and Arvel block should be to kill your target in that turn. There's no sense wasting an ion shot on a target you hope Dutch or Arvel will be killing afterwards. That means it's probably better to fire your ions at another target so that you can set up a killzone on them next turn, but that means you're firing against what is likely a target with tokens, and basically taking a bit of a gamble on the dice rolls and your mods vs theirs.

In the end, with only a point different, I'd ask myself what's likely to be more useful over a wider variety of scenarios. A missile that will either be a guaranteed damage or a 4 dice roll, or a missile that will only do a maximum of 1 damage, which isn't guaranteed and is only coming from a 3 dice roll, albeit one with the potential to control their movement and actions next turn should you roll a net two hits.

This comes down entirely to playstyle, for me. I'd prefer the Homing Missiles, but that's largely because I don't like relying on a mechanic like ion unless I've built enough into the list to get the most out of it (usually at least two ion carriers). If I'm running a double proton torpedo alpha list, I want that first target to die no matter what. Anything I can bring to help pile on the damage, even just by 1, I'll take.

2 hours ago, knute said:

Would Swarm Tactics on Wedge be something to consider?

Not if you're running Adv Torps on Dutch, IMO. Ask yourself who you're actually going to want to use it on. Dutch and Arvel should be at range 1 and 0 of their targets respectively, while Wedge is at range 3 and therefore out of ability range. Airen could be next to him, but he's already I5 and isn't going to benefit from shooting a little bit earlier that much. Wedge can be a formation flier, but I think it needs to be with other X-Wings to work. Tying him to range 1 of a Y-Wing or A-Wing is bottlenecking the dial of either the X-Wing or the A-Wing respectively. And like I said, Airen's really there to help Dutch, it's Airen and Dutch you really want to be at the same range band. Oh yeah, Wedge Swarm Tactics-ing Dutch isn't good either. It would mean Dutch fires before Airen, and Airen's ability only triggers after he attacks. You always want Airen to shoot ahead of Dutch so that Airen can co-ordinate a focus onto Dutch that Dutch can use to mod his attack.

I'd probably drop the talent from Airen entirely, drop Swarm Tactics down to Crack Shot or Trick Shot on Wedge and bump Dutch back up to full Protons. There's no need to overthink shooting order too much, not when Dutch is above or in a simultaneous fire situation with the most dangerous generics and swarm pilots anyway.

The range 1 limitation kills Adv Torps on Y-Wings, for me. Too difficult for them to get it with their dial and no boost. Wedge, Dutch and Airen all shooting ordnance at range 3 with Arvel bumping their target at range 0, and Dutch and all three token sharing is where you want to be. It's also easily the simplest way to fly them, just keep the three ordnance bros together doing the same maneuvers until the opening engagement.

On 9/3/2018 at 1:11 AM, knute said:

I was tinkering around with YASB 2.0 and I discovered Lt. Blount in the Z-95. I came with this, which I think fits more in with the theme of the list, and also adds a bunch of ordinance. Thoughts?rime Points: 2ft)

"Dutch" Vander — Y-Wing	42
Expert Handling	*
Proton Torpedoes	9
R3 Astromech	3
Ship Total: 56
Wedge Antilles — X-Wing	52
Trick Shot	1
Proton Torpedoes	9
R3 Astromech	3
Servomotor S-Foils	0
Ship Total: 65
Arvel Crynyd — A-Wing	36
Intimidation	3
Ship Total: 39
Lieutenant Blount — Z-95 Headhunter	30
Marksmanship	1
Proton Rockets	7
Munitions Failsafe	2
Ship Total: 40

That's not bad, i like the "crynyd-blount trap", bump with the first, shoot with the latter. I'm reasoning about a similar list, but with 2 additional A wings instead of Y wing:

Arvel Crynyd (36)
Intimidation (3)

Green Squadron Pilot (34)
Crack Shot (1)

Green Squadron Pilot (34)
Crack Shot (1)

Lieutenant Blount (30)
Trick Shot (1)

Wedge Antilles (52)
Trick Shot (1)
R3 Astromech (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Total: 196

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

with the swarm moving in a square formation (inner upper corner crynyd and lower outer corner blount) until Arvel can zip in to block, and Wedge is the flanking ace.

I also thought that looking at the opponent dial could be a good thing, so you don't miss that crucial bump with crynyd, and i switched one GSP with sense Ezra:

Arvel Crynyd (36)
Intimidation (3)

Green Squadron Pilot (34)
Crack Shot (1)

Ezra Bridger (TIE Fighter) (32)
Sense (6)

Lieutenant Blount (30)
Crack Shot (1)

Wedge Antilles (52)
Trick Shot (1)
R3 Astromech (3)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

one less total HP, and just 1 pt initiative bid.

Oh geez, I hadn't realized that APT were only range 1.

I'll have to give it some more thought. I kinda liked the Ion Missiles on Airen because it's a 3 dice attack at range 2-3 with 3 charges, so I'm pretty much free shooting them every turn I have arc on a target, which was why I initially went with Blount (for the 3 dice attack due to Arvel). I think I could see running Homing Missiles on Blount rather than Airen.

If I anticipate swarms in my local meta, would you recommend anything different for this list?

Also, with the foregoing kept in mind, I've come down to a choice between two lists:

Rebel A-Z (Blount) (199)
Arvel Crynyd — A-Wing 36
Intimidation 3
Ship Total: 39

Wedge Antilles — X-Wing 52
Trick Shot 1
Proton Torpedoes 9
R3 Astromech 3
Servomotor S-Foils 0
Ship Total: 65

"Dutch" Vander — Y-Wing 42
Expert Handling *
Proton Torpedoes 9
R3 Astromech 3
Shield Upgrade *
Ship Total: 60

Lieutenant Blount — Z-95 Headhunter 30
Expert Handling *
Homing Missiles 3
Ship Total: 35

And:

Rebel A-Z (Airen) (200)
Arvel Crynyd — A-Wing 36
Intimidation 3
Ship Total: 39

Wedge Antilles — X-Wing 52
Trick Shot 1
Proton Torpedoes 9
R3 Astromech 3
Servomotor S-Foils 0
Ship Total: 65

"Dutch" Vander — Y-Wing 42
Expert Handling *
Proton Torpedoes 9
R3 Astromech 3
Ship Total: 56

Airen Cracken — Z-95 Headhunter 36
Ion Missiles 4 (with the idea that I can swap these out for Homing Missiles for a 1-point bid).
Ship Total: 40

Thoughts?