How do Eldar fit into the WFRP (pre 40k) universe?

jh

In Tolkien, the Eldar are elder race elves right?

I think the Eldar are pretty much space elves in 40k, so I'm guessing they're elves vOv

Well, there isn't really a direct connection between the 40k and Fantasy worlds. There are some indications that the Warhammer World is within a warp storm in the 40k Universe, but that isn't really confirmed.

Eldar are just Eldar; they exist in the 40k game, but not in the Fantasy game.

eldar are totally in warhammer fantasy world, as elves. they are totally space elves despite GW lameness. none of it makes any sense. they just made space fantasy races and claimed later that eldar are not space elves, don't believe their propaganda!

The Eldar are the space version of the Warhammer elves, it is what it is. They'd be space high elves while the Dark Eldar would be the...wait for it DARK ELVES (ta-daaa) of the Warhammer setting.

One difference between the two, though, is that the ELDAR through their sefish/lazy/hedonistic pursuits over time gave form to the Chaos power known as Slaanesh. Yes, the Eldar essentially created a major Chaos player. The reason they have those funky stones on their armor is to capture their souls at time of death and keep them 'alive' to be communicated with/socketed into a Wraithlord or whatnot and to prevent them from being eaten by Slaanesh when they head on over to the other side.

Despite whatever revisionist history there's been since the Eldar first made their appearance (And the DE and Slaanesh) in GW lore that's how it started waaay back when (i.e. 1st edition 40k)

Except that Eldar aren't High Elves.

For starters, the High Elves did not participate in the creation of Slaanesh, neither did their souls get ripped from their bodies when he was born and they're not permeated by his hungering presence. They don't have to worry with soulstones.

WFRP Elves are also more magical than they are psychic, which might be calling the same thing with two names. But still I think they're different. For example, WH40k humans are fully capable of mastering psychic energies, whereas WFRP mages seem severely limited and almost completely unable to

At best you're looking at Eldar and WFRP Elves being distant cousins that evolved their abilities with the Warp differently.

Lexicanum said:

They are not Wood Elves either, but they are the same species.

Lexicanum said:

The Old World is post Slaanesh's birth, so they should be subject to the Eldar doom. The lack of reference to this could be simple ignorance, as this Exodite colony is completely isolated from their cousins.

Lexicanum said:

Magic = Psychic in the greater Warhammer universe. The WH40K novels I've read certainly have 'pyker' character casting 'spells'. WFRP humans are probably labouring under a system of magic that hobbles their advancement. Also WH40K humans have technologicallyextended lifespans (I think, certainly Space Marines do), giving them more time to master magic as well as a comprehensive system of magic/psyker training.

Also the Old World psychic/magic enviroment is radically different than a 'normal' planet, so the rules may well be very different.

Ignorance of Slaanesh's birth? It reverbated throughout the warp, slew many Eldar outright for thousands of light years from the home craftworld and destroyed all of the Eldar gods except for Cegorach, Isha and the Laughing God.

From the Lexicanum website: "As Slaanesh was born, there was not a single Eldar who didn't feel the pain."

And yet none of this was noticed in the Old World? And the Elven Gods there are alive and kicking despite being warp entities that Slaanesh devoured? That's convenient.

Another aspect is that in WFRP magic requires a specialized language learned directly from the Old Ones, which is what the Elves use. A dialect of which was taught to the humans, created by Teclis for them. Hedge Wizards form their own imperfect dialects and hence are more vulnerable to the warp. Yet in WH40k there's no need for an intermediate language and in fact none exists. It's also strange to somehow bind the workings of the warp to a localized world, when the warp itself is outside of any physical realm and is an alternate universe or an extended set of dimensions.

I mean we're all free to hand wave whatever into our personal games. But those are glaring omissions from my perspective.

If I wanted to establish the link between the two I'd be inclined to say the Old World is before the birth of Slaanesh and at the time when the Old Ones retreated from the Galaxy. Slaanesh's birth wouldn't come until many tens of millennia later and the Old World Elves were the pre-cursors to the Eldar.

Slaanesh is a full god in the Old World and so the Old World timeline must be post-birth. The appearent metaphysical differences between the WH and WH40K universes are not too great. The presence of the broken warp-gates make the WH world a very unusual place. Somewhere that can sit slightly apart from a 'typical' planet. It's not so difficult to concieve this resolving any appearent differences.

For instance:

The Slaanesh birth-shock may have been the event that collasped the warp-gates; so the elves did 'notice' both the psychic shock and the warp flooding across their world. Whether they noted the birth of Slaanesh at the same time I don't know. Perhaps they did, I've not read enough canon to know. Do the WH elves ever discuss their afterlife in WH canon?

The Elven gods (or fragments of them) may have escaped Slaanesh devouring them by fleeing through the warp-gates. So the elven gods are still alive and kicking, but only on the WH world. Perhaps the souls of WH elves are still protected by these local (planetery) deities.

One thing is certain, Games Workshop will never publish anything definitive to confirm or deny the link between the two lines. Expect no WFRP campaign where a Rogue Trader takes up orbit.

Fresnel said:

The metaphysical differences between the two universes are there if you look for them. The differences are very easy to resolve - the two universes are completely separate and unrelated. You'll never see a RT appear in orbit over the Empire because officially Rogue Traders don't exist in the same universe as the Warhammer world. The pantheons in the two games have separate origins - in Warhammer Slaanesh was not created by either the elves or the eldar.

I think the main thing that is being overlooked is that -if- the Eldar and the High Elves are one, then the Humans are not the same as became the Imperium.

The Eldar were not from Holy Terra, and they were a spacefaring race long before humans had even evolved into modern humans. The two game systems can't be seamlessly integrated without ignoring most of the 40k background.

it is like two different conversations are happening at the same time. one that is borderline crazy, and the other that looks at their eldar minis and says,"****! space elves with space lasers, super cool!"

In (relatively) recent years Games Workshop has formally separated the 40K and Fantasy Battles universes. Confusion arises due to the common origin of both IPs and some diehards who like the idea (which is their prerogative, but vastly complicates things and makes certain parts of the lore very inconsistent, as noted above).

GW themselves have waffled a bit on this - during the Campaign in Albion summer event a few years back several factions were awarded "magic items" that were thinly veiled 40K items - in particular the High Elves got a set of power armor and a flamer added to their magic items list. Generally the easiest way to think of 40K and Fantasy Battles/WHFRP now are that they are parallel universes connected by the Warp/Chaos.

Yeah, the Elves and the Eldar have completely different origins. There's potential to have the Fantasy world exist as a world in the 40k universe, but what's the point? There's no need to cross-pollinate the worlds, and 40k tech would massacre the entire world with little problems

Lexicanum said:

They're both elves. One group lives in space, the other on an island. Both exist in the WH universe and I'm pretty sure the writers were thinking about the HE when they wrote up the original Eldar in Rogue Trader.

Might as well run the list if you're going to go that direction:

WH Humans aren't the same as 40K Humans

Orcs aren't the same as Orks

Ogres aren't the same as Ogryn

Goblins aren't the same as Gretchin

Snotlings aren't the same as Snotlings

Chaos Warriors aren't the same as Chaos Marines

...and so forth.

phobiandarkmoon said:

The funny thing is, GW used to run 40K vs WHFB pitched battles at Games Day every so often. Fantasy Battles generally won by a landslide, due to a combination of incombatability of mechanics (among many, many other factors, Empire Great Cannons become Tau railguns in 40K) and a lack of any sort of counter magic.

phobiandarkmoon said:

the slann beg to differ...

don't forget squats, who certainly aren't space dwarves!

Lol. remember, Squats haven't existed in 40k since 2nd edition!!

Anyway, it was more a 'yes, we know they're not exactly the same as high elves' sort of post.

Is it possible that the Old Ones (mighty, mighty Old Ones) actually created or found many of the races?

For example the Elves (or Eldar)? Maybe they found primitive Eldar and they brought some of those (like thousands) as their servants in the Warhammer World to do something (something else than Lizardmen)? When Old Ones perished these Eldar settling the in Ulthuan became culture of themselves and started calling themselves as Elves.

Now, original Eldar where in the different world going in different direction.

Talking about warp and gates and everything, we're not that far from our dear Great Old Lovecraftian Ones...
"who lived ages before man (...) who came to the young world out of the sky (...) those Old ones are gone now" ( in Dunwich Horror )

jackdays said:

Possible, but it would have to have been after Slaanesh was created and the Eldar race had fallen. So it'd be a bit of a hack.

phobiandarkmoon said:

Not necessarily. Time doesn't really progress or even exist as we know it in the Warp/Chaos. As an entity born of Chaos, there's no reason that Slaanesh couldn't be active in one universe before its creation in another - or even in the same universe. The only prerequisite for the existence of the Chaos deities seems to be the existence of enough of the appropriate negative emotions or energy in an area to sustain them.

The Lizardman books have stated that the elves in Fantasy were created by the Old Ones, not transplanted. So if anything it would seem that the Eldar are in fact descended from Fantasy elves and not the other way around.

Actually if you just squint at the 40K War in Heaven a bit and turn your head a little to the side, it's very easy to draw the interpretation that the Druchii eventually conquered the other elves (or the Asur fell far enough that the two cultures rejoined each other), then after their decadence gave birth to Slaanesh and destroyed them, the Elven/Eldar culture then split again. So rather than being an analog for the Asur per se, the Eldar are instead Druchii trying to recapture Asur culture based on what they know of it prior to destroying it, while Dark Eldar are Druchii going about the business of being themselves. Exodites, of course, are Druchii who tried to become Asur again, decided it wasn't for them, and embraced Asrai traditions instead.

that's just too messy to me. I really prefer not to think of the Fantasy and 40K universes as the same.

not to mean that you all don't seem to be having a lot of fun with this discussion! :]