49 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Exactly. That's why Anakin could only vaguely calm that beast in the Geonosis arena, not give it commands.

Or it could be that Anakin isn't very skilled in that particular power. Or perhaps that beast was just particularly resistant to such powers. Or...

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Or it could be that Anakin isn't very skilled in that particular power. Or perhaps that beast was just particularly resistant to such powers. Or...

Yes, that is a list of stuff that doesn't happen in the movies.

Meanwhile, I've been pointing to actual scenes in the actual movies to support my view.

Yeah, by all the information I've read/watched/heard Obi-Wan was very talented in this skill where as Anakin focused on other Force abilities. There are certainly a number of examples out there where it has been used without verbal communication so I will allow that in game but with there being so many more examples (albeit mainly a means to let viewers know what was happening) that there is an audible command, I will probably tend to run the with the option of:
Verbal Influence- Basic Roll (possible boost)
Nonverbal Influence - 1 setback dice - unless/until the PC has done it enough for it to become the norm

That just sets the scene that what they are doing is more difficult than the norm.

22 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's not a nerf to make it work the way we see and hear it work in the movies.

Others in this thread have shown there are examples including at least one cannon one that Influence can be used to achieve the same effect without a verbal component. Regardless mechanically there is no language requirement for the Influence Power so adding one is a House Rule which diminishes it's effectiveness. That's what a nerf is. If you add a language requirement, especially if it's only really going to affect one Player's PC you are nerfing their PC and that is unfair to that Player. So if you as the GM are going to go against the RAW to nerf something, for whatever reason, and it essentially singles out one Player's PC then you should make it up to them in some equal way. It's the fair thing to do and the GM's main responsibility besides guiding the story and adjudicating rules is to maintain good will at the table, treating Players unfairly erodes that good will.

1 hour ago, FuriousGreg said:

Regardless mechanically there is no language requirement for the Influence Power

There is no mechanical requirement for a R2 droid to beep instead of talk. And yet restricting that character to beeping is far more Star Wars-y than not doing it. That isn't a nerf on R2 droid PCs, that's acting according to the spirit of Star Wars.

1 hour ago, FuriousGreg said:

especially if it's only really going to affect one Player's PC

That player signaled their interest in roleplaying language barriers. It's doing them a service.

How much is the character even restricted, in the grand scheme of things? They can learn the common language, can't they? Hey, look at that! An opportunity to roleplay a new aspect of the language problems the player is interested in!

That's how I'm leaning @Stan Fresh , the players specifically indicated communication with the other players may be an issue and that Player has played in my games long enough to understand that will have repercusions. In fact he expects it but the point of this post was to understand how influence worked in general. I had honestly forgotten the instances mentioned here where it was used non-verbally so it was a good reminder and it means that I can allow it but I'll probably play it out with some confusion on the target's behalf.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

There is no mechanical requirement for a R2 droid to beep instead of talk. And yet restricting that character to beeping is far more Star Wars-y than not doing it. That isn't a nerf on R2 droid PCs, that's acting according to the spirit of Star Wars.

That's a false equivalency. As I've pointed out there is nothing in the RAW requiring that the target speaks the same language to be affected by the Influence so there is no mechanical barrier. There are also examples in both canon and Legends of this type of Force ability working despite an obvious language barrier. So it seems that the "spirit" of Star Wars is that language isn't an issue for this ability. You may disagree and your Player may be fine with you nerfing his PC without any compensation, but make no mistake that's exactly what you are doing in the face of both the RAW and examples from canon.

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

How much is the character even restricted, in the grand scheme of things? They can learn the common language, can't they? Hey, look at that! An opportunity to roleplay a new aspect of the language problems the player is interested in! 

Well, like most House Rules there is generally a ripple effect. I can think of a few right off the bat, for example if a PC or NPC must understand the language they presumably also have to hear the order clearly, so would that mean you wouldn't be affected if you plugged your ears and chanted "na, na, na...."? How will you determine which languages each NPC the PC encounters knows? Jawas are traders and all sorts of people could know their language so that means you will have to arbitrarily determine for every encounter if the target NPC can understand Jawa. How do you plan on doing that fairly?

28 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

Well, like most House Rules there is generally a ripple effect. I can think of a few right off the bat, for example if a PC or NPC must understand the language they presumably also have to hear the order clearly, so would that mean you wouldn't be affected if you plugged your ears and chanted "na, na, na...."? How will you determine which languages each NPC the PC encounters knows? Jawas are traders and all sorts of people could know their language so that means you will have to arbitrarily determine for every encounter if the target NPC can understand Jawa. How do you plan on doing that fairly?

HA! When reading this I just pictured the following scenario

Jedi: "You will let me pass and forget you saw me"
--Rolls FFAAA
Trooper just stands there staring at the Jedi, "Move along"
Jedi: "You will let me pass..."
Another Trooper approaches, "Hey Jerry, how's the ear infection"
Original Trooper: "What? Sorry, I can't hear a thing." Looks at Jedi, "Move along"

31 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

How will  you determine    which  languages each NPC the PC encou  nter  s knows? 

Your other points have all been addressed already. But this bit here shows that you're thinking about the act of playing as a simulation, not a storytelling venture. And that is fundamentally at odds with the design of this game.

All your issues here flow from that misalignment, I think.

15 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Exactly. That's why Anakin could only vaguely calm that beast in the Geonosis arena, not give it commands.

Yes, but was he using Influence to do so? For all we know he was simply using the Survival skill. By contrast, Nomi Sunrider specifically used the Force in the form of Battle Influence (which the Devs have said is done by using the Influence Emotion upgrade ) on a pair of Hssiss, causing them to turn on one another, just by thinking about it . She imagined it and it came to pass. That was specifically, in game terms, using the Influence power on animals to change their behavior, with no verbal communication whatsoever. Legends or not, the Developers ruled that this is a valid use of the Influence Emotion Upgrade , and does not require any verbal communication.

53 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Your other points have all been addressed already. But this bit here shows that you're thinking about the act of playing as a simulation, not a storytelling venture. And that is fundamentally at odds with the design of this game.

All your issues here flow from that misalignment, I think.

That's a pretty big claim for a post that has no answers.

Please enlighten me as to how those points have been addressed because all I've seen you come back with is essentially that you don't care about the RAW and that the examples within canon that don't support your view somehow don't count? Am I missing anything?

As for the the question I posed it's more than just that one line it's all of this:

Quote

How will you determine which languages each NPC the PC encounters knows? Jawas are traders and all sorts of people could know their language so that means you will have to arbitrarily determine for every encounter if the target NPC can understand Jawa. How do you plan on doing that fairly?

This isn't a misalignment coming from the idea that I approach this game as a simulation, in fact it's the exact opposite. I'm saying it's not a simulation of what we see in the films and that the Star Wars universe has examples that Force works for this ability regardless of language barriers. By requiring that the target understand the language of the command is kinda the stimulation-ist view especially since you are requiring that language is thing in spite of canon examples that it isn't important. I just took your House Rule idea and gave some examples of what might happen if you apply it's logic consistently ingame.
So what would your presumably fair system be to determine if an NPC would know Jawa or not? It's going to be a valid question every time your Player wants to use Influence on a new NPC. I suppose you could just assume no one knows Jawa but then that wouldn't just be a nerf but actually render the PC's ability useless, unless the Player caved and said his PC learned to speak common, that doesn't sound very Star Wars-y. And what about species that can understand common but can't actually vocalize it?

The point is there are a lot of little problems that can come up when you ignore canon and change the RAW to match what amounts to a cinematic necessity to keep the audience in the loop.

6 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but was he using Influence to do so?

If that is a valid argument, then it's equally valid to discount all other on-screen used of mind trick as Persuasion Checks, leaving you with no evidence that mind trick can be used with or without speech. Congratulations, you argued yourself out of having an argument.

5 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

That's a pretty big claim for a post that has no answers.

Luckily it's not the only post here addressing your points.

5 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

I'   m saying it's not a simulation of what we see in the films and that the Star Wars universe has examples that Force works for this ability regardless of language barriers.

Show me someone performing a mind trick without the target understanding the command. Not something vaguely LIKE a mind trick, but the actual iconic mind trick. We all know what it is and what it entails. Because that's what OP asked about. Not influencing animals or puppeteering bodies.

5 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

By requiring   that the target understand the language of the command  is kinda the stimulation-ist view

No, it's the fiction-first view. It's narrativist, not simulationist. The (false) idea that I'd have to decide for every encountered NPC whether they understand the Jawa or not? THAT is simulation, not narrative.

6 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

So what would your presumably fair system be to determine if an NPC would know Jawa or not?

The same as your presumably fair system to determine what gear an NPC you created carries.

6 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

unless the Player caved and said his PC learned to speak common, that doesn't sound very Star Wars-y

It would recreate what we see and hear in the movies, so of course it would be very Star Wars-y. To say otherwise isn't just unsupportable, it's outright laughable.

6 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

The point is there are a lot of little problems that can come up when you ignore canon and change the RAW to match what amounts to a cinematic necessity to keep the audience in the loop.

Good thing I did neither.

17 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

If that is a valid argument, then it's equally valid to discount all other on-screen used of mind trick as Persuasion Checks, leaving you with no evidence that mind trick can be used with or without speech. Congratulations, you argued yourself out of having an argument.

<snip>

Wrong. In the movies, we have certain "visual cues" used to denote when a Jedi is using Influence . These are for the Audience to know it's being used, but aren't really necessary for the power itself. Anakin does not use these cues. What we do see him do is what any normal person does when trying to calm an animal. Even more importantly, we have how the target reacts to the power used on him (or her). This is typically a more "robotic" response of varying degrees, as if under hypnosis , which is far different from how a person would react to a simple persuasion check.

As for examples of someone using Influence on someone who doesn't speak the same language , look at Luke using it on Bib Fortuna , Jabba's Major Domo. Now, as to whether or not Fortuna understands Basic, that is is up for debate. However, he definitely doesn't speak Basic, and Huttese is the language used most in Jabba's palace, so we can't assume anything. As such, that certainly supports the argument that you don't need a common language to use Influence on a target.

And, even if Anakin was using Influence on the Reek, It is clear from his actions, all he was trying to do was to calm it anyway, and thus it would have been the Emotion upgrade he was using. So to say, all he was capable of doing with the power was potentially calm the animal down, that's all he was trying to do. As such, that would still support non verbal use of Influence . And as such, being able to speak or even understand the same language is not required for the power to work. It is a mental power, not a verbal one.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

These are for the Audience to know it's being used, but aren't really necessary for the power itself.

Where do the movies say that? Because every instance of the mind trick is accompanied by words and hand movements.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for examples of someone using Influence on someone who doesn't speak the same language , look at Luke using it on Bib Fortuna , Jabba's Major Domo. Now, as to whether or not Fortuna understands Basic, that is is up for debate. However, he definitely doesn't speak Basic, and Huttese is the language used most in Jabba's palace, so we can't assume anything. As such, that certainly supports the argument that you don't need a common language to use Influence on a target.

No, you don't get to weasel your way out of it. Bib clearly understood Luke. As I said: one-way communication, at the least.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And, even if Anakin was using Influence on the Reek, It is clear from his actions, all he was trying to do was to calm it anyway, and thus it would have been the Emotion upgrade he was using. So to say, all he was capable of doing with the power was potentially calm the animal down, that's all he was trying to do. As such, that would still support non verbal use of Influence . And as such, being able to speak or even understand the same language is not required for the power to work. It is a mental power, not a verbal one.

You keep conflating mind tricks with other uses of Influence. That the power is written broadly doesn't mean it can ignore in-universe restrictions on specific manifestations of Force use.

That and mind trick is generally represented as a tool that only works on the weak minded and only allows the target to do what they were prepositioned to do (Waddo for example would never let anything go; thus the prospect of letting a slave go was completely unreasonable. A mind trick is unlikely to affect a mind that is firm in it's convictions. For example, letting Han Solo go was firmly against Jabba's convictions and despite his debased nature, he was a very focused individual when it came to business and his own pleasures.

Personally, there are two ways of viewing influence. It's either the mind buggery that Kylo Ren used on Rey and Poe where he tried to physically force the information out of someones mind (which would most certainly be conflict worthy, given the potential harm using a power in that way can inflict.), which I don't feel needs a common language but requires the target to be restrained. I see it this way because there's nothing really that represents that particular power as of yet. Secondly there is the Jedi Mind Trick, which is generally shown to mildly suggest something that would be plausible to the individual that is accompanied by words to form the basis of what it is they are accepting to be a fact. These are aren't the droids I am looking for? Fair enough.

So yes and no. For the Jedi Mind trick however, it has only been used in situations where one individual has been able to understand another as far as the sliver screen goes. Thus if the PC has the background that only a handful people can understand him; then no, I do not feel Influence would work on the vast majority of individuals he would meet unless he communicated in a way they understood, as the mental tweek and the verbal suggestion seems intrinsic to it's function.

Just my 50 pence.

15 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Where do the movies say that? Because every instance of the mind trick is accompanied by words and hand movements.

No, you don't get to weasel your way out of it. Bib clearly understood Luke. As I said: one-way communication, at the least.

You keep conflating mind tricks with other uses of Influence. That the power is written broadly doesn't mean it can ignore in-universe restrictions on specific manifestations of Force use.

Influence , is the Jedi Mind Trick. More specifically, there isn't only one "Jedi Mind Trick". "Mind Trick" is a catch-all term for multiple mind influencing effects. Any time you use the force to influence a target's mind, be it through emotional manipulation, convincing him do so something, tricking him with an illusion, etc, these are all mind tricks. So, no, they are not always accompanied by words and hand movements. Rey certainly didn't use any hand movements when she used the Force to convince the Storm Trooper to release her bonds, drop his weapon, and leave the room with the door open.

4 hours ago, LordBritish said:

That and mind trick is generally represented as a tool that only works on the weak minded and only allows the target to do what they were prepositioned to do (Waddo for example would never let anything go; thus the prospect of letting a slave go was completely unreasonable. A mind trick is unlikely to affect a mind that is firm in it's convictions. For example, letting Han Solo go was firmly against Jabba's convictions and despite his debased nature, he was a very focused individual when it came to business and his own pleasures.

Personally, there are two ways of viewing influence. It's either the mind buggery that Kylo Ren used on Rey and Poe where he tried to physically force the information out of someones mind (which would most certainly be conflict worthy, given the potential harm using a power in that way can inflict.), which I don't feel needs a common language but requires the target to be restrained. I see it this way because there's nothing really that represents that particular power as of yet. Secondly there is the Jedi Mind Trick, which is generally shown to mildly suggest something that would be plausible to the individual that is accompanied by words to form the basis of what it is they are accepting to be a fact. These are aren't the droids I am looking for? Fair enough.

So yes and no. For the Jedi Mind trick however, it has only been used in situations where one individual has been able to understand another as far as the sliver screen goes. Thus if the PC has the background that only a handful people can understand him; then no, I do not feel Influence would work on the vast majority of individuals he would meet unless he communicated in a way they understood, as the mental tweek and the verbal suggestion seems intrinsic to it's function.

Just my 50 pence.

Kylo Ren didn't use Influence on Poe and Rey, He was using Sense to try to read their minds . It's called a Mind Probe; a very invasive use of Sense that digs deep into the mind, beyond just surface thoughts.

As for Jabba, Hutts are, by their nature, extremely resistant to mind influencing Force powers, almost to the point of being immune to them. Toydarians, as well, are canonically immune to Influence . That was why Qui Gon's use of Influence failed to work on Watto.

Also, Ben Kenobi on the Death Star, tricked the two storm troopers guarding the tracker beam generator by making them think they heard a sound behind them; a sound that was only in their minds. That was a non-verbal "mind trick". Now, some people may argue that this was the Force power Misdirect . However, Misdirect , cloaks an individual, making them invisible, or creates an illusion (ala Doppleganger ). Obi wan, made them believe that they had heard something that wasn't there. That'smore in line with the "Emotion/Believe Something Untrue" Control upgrade of Influence . And it was done without any verbal commands.

I think this sounds like good narrative fodder, especially in this case where the player asked for language to be an issue. I'd probably let it add complexity but not rule against it working. In other words, this seems like a great use of the dice. Perhaps the language barrier becomes an issue with enough threat or a despair. I'd probably ask my player to tell me how, if not in with language, they are accomplishing the influence. Do they hand gesture? Do they try to convey feelings about a home in danger? These follow-up questions would allow me to interpret the dice better if something does go bad.

Man, if only there was some sort of mystical energy field that connected every sapient thing in the galaxy together. Then your language barrier problem with this superpower would be solved.

I was gonna argue a point, but I figured a lot of it's down to personal interpretation, so I'll just leave it. Just one thing I will leave here though which has been a pet peeve for the longest time.

I have always felt the statement of force immunity is absolute rubbish. It somehow has become a legend that was established by two species not being affected by the force entirely, just because a mind trick didn't affect two individuals . That is pretty lazy logic declare two entire species entirely immune to the force; just because two individuals were particularly strong minded, something that mind tricks were stated to be weak against . in summery, I don't believe they are immune to the force mind at all and that the people who established the species are immune don't understand the simple logic that was established in the very first movie . Mind tricks don't work on mentally strong individuals.

Yes, I'm saying Lucas doesn't understand his own source material by the time he wrote episode 1, and nor did the interpretations of that text . I am quite happy to be arrogant enough to make that statement because I have long disagreed with a blanket statement that I thought was going to be silly. XD

2 hours ago, LordBritish said:

I was gonna argue a point, but I figured a lot of it's down to personal interpretation, so I'll just leave it. Just one thing I will leave here though which has been a pet peeve for the longest time.

I have always felt the statement of force immunity is absolute rubbish. It somehow has become a legend that was established by two species not being affected by the force entirely, just because a mind trick didn't affect two individuals . That is pretty lazy logic declare two entire species entirely immune to the force; just because two individuals were particularly strong minded, something that mind tricks were stated to be weak against . in summery, I don't believe they are immune to the force mind at all and that the people who established the species are immune don't understand the simple logic that was established in the very first movie . Mind tricks don't work on mentally strong individuals.

Yes, I'm saying Lucas doesn't understand his own source material by the time he wrote episode 1, and nor did the interpretations of that text . I am quite happy to be arrogant enough to make that statement because I have long disagreed with a blanket statement that I thought was going to be silly. XD

Oh crap! You've caught TPBD (Tramp's Pointless Bolding Disorder) too!

6 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Oh crap! You've caught TPBD (Tramp's Pointless Bolding Disorder) too!

=_=

I bolded for empathies, which is something I don't usually do for a statement I considered pretty loaded. I don't care for forum politics in either case quite frankly, just if it was intended as humour it didn't tickle my fancy.

I don't know if you will garner much empathy here on this forum and I do emphasize that statement

I will agree that people take a large leap over small scenes. That being said, I loved how the developers expanded on the Drabata species from the 30 seconds of screen time Pao was on screen

11 hours ago, LordBritish said:

I am quite happy to be arrogant enough to make that statement because I have long disagreed with a blanket statement that I thought was going to be silly

If you strip away all the bits of non-movie stuff, all that's left is just an in-character statement from an untrustworthy source, anyway.

17 hours ago, LordBritish said:

I was gonna argue a point, but I figured a lot of it's down to personal interpretation, so I'll just leave it. Just one thing I will leave here though which has been a pet peeve for the longest time.

I have always felt the statement of force immunity is absolute rubbish. It somehow has become a legend that was established by two species not being affected by the force entirely, just because a mind trick didn't affect two individuals . That is pretty lazy logic declare two entire species entirely immune to the force; just because two individuals were particularly strong minded, something that mind tricks were stated to be weak against . in summery, I don't believe they are immune to the force mind at all and that the people who established the species are immune don't understand the simple logic that was established in the very first movie . Mind tricks don't work on mentally strong individuals.

Yes, I'm saying Lucas doesn't understand his own source material by the time he wrote episode 1, and nor did the interpretations of that text . I am quite happy to be arrogant enough to make that statement because I have long disagreed with a blanket statement that I thought was going to be silly. XD

Well, to be clear, Watto pretty much made it explicit that the reason why Mind Tricks wouldn't work on him was specifically because he was a Toydarian. To quote:

Quote

What'dya think you're doin' wavin' your hand around like that? Do you think you're some kind of Jedi or somethin'? I'm a Toydarian! Mind Tricks don't work on me ; only money. No money, no parts, no deal.

"Mind Tricks don't work on me, only  mon  e   y."

Yeah that totally sounds like something to be taken literally.