I have a player that is playing a Jawa in my game and they decided among the other players that only a couple of them understood him. I know that the game kind of hand-waves the different languages and pretty much assumes people understands everyone but this was something that they specifically requested as an RP point.

So I am looking at other issues that may come up here. If the Jawa walks up to a Trooper, waves his hand and says "Ashuna Ayafa Kilzci" [Go Clean Cave] and he rolls a success does the trooper head off looking for a cave or stare blankly at the Jawa not understanding the command.

To break it down, is the verbal component of Influence as important as they make it out to be in the movies or is it more of the Jedi's intent.

I could see a Wookie jedi going up to two troopers and says "Aroo arrrr grgah" and the troopers look at the wookie and then back at each other "I have no idea what he said but I have this strange desire to rip off your arms"

Doesn't feel right to me. Obi-Wan talks about influencing the weak-minded, not about puppeteering a meat-robot.

We see that mind tricks have their limits (Jabba, Watto). They're not infallible.

The Obi-Wan novel deals with this exactly. In it, Obi-Wan uses it to keep some Tuscans at bay, in it the Tuskan repeated the command in their language and followed through. As a GM I’d treat it as swaying emotion and desire. Sure, the trooper doesn’t understand the Jawa, but he feels an overwhelming desire or need to go clean that cave.

Influence in in the game does influence emotion too.

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Doesn't feel right to me. Obi-Wan talks about influencing the weak-minded, not about puppeteering a meat-robot.

We see that mind tricks have their limits (Jabba, Watto). They're not infallible.

Yeah but he also said "You don't want to sell me death sticks, you want to go home and rethink your life." And the guy went and did exactly that. So something like "You want to clean this cave." seems in the same ballpark as "go home and rethink your life." There was a physical compulsion in that use of Influence, the "go home" part. And the 'you don't want to sell me death sticks" too now that I think about it. The current choice of actions of the target, were redirected to go do something else.

It's a grey area I admit, but it's also the kind of thing that I can see being ruled either way really at a table.

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah but he also said "You don't want to sell me death sticks, you want    to go home and rethink your life." And the guy went and did exactly that. 

I mean that you can't influence someone without establishing at least one-way communication. Without a common language there is no way to communicate what you want the target to do.

You're not riding their body like a ghost, you're telling them what to do.

I don't see a problem with the command itself.

Without a common language, you might be able to give basic, gesture-based commands like "stop" (palms of both hands towards subject) or "go there" (by pointing), but nothing more.

So for the most part, I think we agree there needs basic understanding although I had forgotten the Obi Wan novels where he used it against the Tuscans, thanks for reminding me of that @General Zod

I'll be open to it and make decision based on what he tries to suggest.

Honestly I'm of the opinion that it's not the verbal component that is important but the intent of the Jedi and the Force does the rest. The speaking it out loud is for the viewer of the films and TV, and possibly to help the Jedi focus.

The more important thing though is how does the Player and GM want to run it because the RAW does not put any language requirement to the power. It's not that the developers skipped it because there are rules in place for species who have resistance so the RAI is probably that it works regardless of having a common language. What the GM needs to take into consideration is that if they nerf this ability because of what is essentially 'fluff" then how are they going to compensate the PC in return? If you don't then you are treating that player unfairly, even if they agree. That's a bad habit to get into.

2 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

What the GM needs to take into consideration is that if they nerf this ability because of what is essentially 'fluff" then how are they going to compensate the PC in return?

It's not a nerf to make it work the way we see and hear it work in the movies.

38 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's not a nerf to make it work the way we see and hear it work in the movies.

This is pretty much it and I've been gaming with this group that they know I allow a lot of stuff and restrict stuff mainly on what I know of Star Wars and common sense (where the two don't directly counter each other). I fully embraced their decision to make it where only two of the crew understood him except where one other player intentionally made a point to learning Jawa. I also have most NPCs stare at him blankly when he talks to them unless one of his friends are there to translate. The one time I didn't, he had approached the head of a major shipmaking company (Kuat) and he went up and did his Jawa gibberish and the man responded in perfect Jawanese. You have to expect that one of the head guys of Kuat shipyards knows how to speak to pretty much anyone of any species.

17 minutes ago, Varlie said:

You have to expect that one of the head guys of Kuat shipyards knows how to speak to pretty much anyone of any species.

No, but I'd expect that they can afford protocol droids for such things.

That is more likely but I liked seeing the Jawa's eyes go big when someon spoke to him fluently in his native language and then they started a whole conversation not anywhere linked to the issues at hand.

16 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Doesn't feel right to me. Obi-Wan talks about influencing the weak-minded, not about puppeteering a meat-robot.

We see that mind tricks have their limits (Jabba, Watto). They're not infallible.

17 hours ago, Varlie said:

I have a player that is playing a Jawa in my game and they decided among the other players that only a couple of them understood him. I know that the game kind of hand-waves the different languages and pretty much assumes people understands everyone but this was something that they specifically requested as an RP point.

So I am looking at other issues that may come up here. If the Jawa walks up to a Trooper, waves his hand and says "Ashuna Ayafa Kilzci" [Go Clean Cave] and he rolls a success does the trooper head off looking for a cave or stare blankly at the Jawa not understanding the command.

To break it down, is the verbal component of Influence as important as they make it out to be in the movies or is it more of the Jedi's intent.

I could see a Wookie jedi going up to two troopers and says "Aroo arrrr grgah" and the troopers look at the wookie and then back at each other "I have no idea what he said but I have this strange desire to rip off your arms"

16 hours ago, General Zod said:

The Obi-Wan novel deals with this exactly. In it, Obi-Wan uses it to keep some Tuscans at bay, in it the Tuskan repeated the command in their language and followed through. As a GM I’d treat it as swaying emotion and desire. Sure, the trooper doesn’t understand the Jawa, but he feels an overwhelming desire or need to go clean that cave.

Influence in in the game does influence emotion too.

14 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah but he also said "You don't want to sell me death sticks, you want to go home and rethink your life." And the guy went and did exactly that. So something like "You want to clean this cave." seems in the same ballpark as "go home and rethink your life." There was a physical compulsion in that use of Influence, the "go home" part. And the 'you don't want to sell me death sticks" too now that I think about it. The current choice of actions of the target, were redirected to go do something else.

It's a grey area I admit, but it's also the kind of thing that I can see being ruled either way really at a table.

11 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I mean that you can't influence someone without establishing at least one-way communication. Without a common language there is no way to communicate what you want the target to do.

You're not riding their body like a ghost, you're telling them what to do.

I don't see a problem with the command itself.

This is not entirely true. Technically, you don't necessarily even need to speak with someone at all to Influence them. Certain uses of the power can be done with no direct communication at all. For instance, The "Battle Influence" used by Nomi Sunrider in TOTJ, falls under the Emotion upgrade of the Influence power, according to the Developers. She didn't need to say anything to cause her foes to turn on one another. All she needed to do was create an image in her own mind and project that image mentally, and it came to pass. In Rebels , Ezra uses Influence to force an ATST pilot to attack his own allies, once again, with no verbal communication. He simply dominated the pilot's mind. So, no, Language is not a barrier to using Influence .

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

This is not entirely true. Technically, you don't necessarily even need to speak with someone at all to Influence them. Certain uses of the power can be done with no direct communication at all. For instance, The "Battle Influence" used by Nomi Sunrider in TOTJ, falls under the Emotion upgrade of the Influence power, according to the Developers. She didn't need to say anything to cause her foes to turn on one another. All she needed to do was create an image in her own mind and project that image mentally, and it came to pass. In Rebels , Ezra uses Influence to force an ATST pilot to attack his own allies, once again, with no verbal communication. He simply dominated the pilot's mind. So, no, Language is not a barrier to using Influence .

Was it influence in those examples though? Or was it the "unwilling target" rule exception for Battle Meditation? Because those feel more like that, if we are going to cite game powers and the specific mechanics therein. I forget the precise wording, but there is a variant rule for the Battle Meditation, where it states if you are using this on people who are unwilling, their Willpower is reduced to 1 for the duration. That always felt way more like what Ezra did to that ATST pilot than Influence.

Again, it's a grey area, as the writers of the episodes don't proof-read powers, and the game powers are reverse-engineering what we see in the shows/movies, but what is possibly a way more nebulous, and general Jedi Mind Control kind of concept. Gamers are the ones who like to split hairs about X being A power, and Y being B power. The writers just make them do cool stuff that conveys the story elements they wanted. Namely in that scene, that Ezra was 2 things:

1. Significantly more powerful than he was in the previous season.

2. Starting to go down a Dark Side leaning path with how he is using the Force.

At no point did any writer ask "Is this an application of the Influence Force power with sufficient upgrades? Or is it more Battle Meditation? Because that's just crunch that they don't care about.

Just now, KungFuFerret said:

Was it influence in those examples though? Or was it the "unwilling target" rule exception for Battle Meditation? Because those feel more like that, if we are going to cite game powers and the specific mechanics therein. I forget the precise wording, but there is a variant rule for the Battle Meditation, where it states if you are using this on people who are unwilling, their Willpower is reduced to 1 for the duration. That always felt way more like what Ezra did to that ATST pilot than Influence.

Again, it's a grey area, as the writers of the episodes don't proof-read powers, and the game powers are reverse-engineering what we see in the shows/movies, but what is possibly a way more nebulous, and general Jedi Mind Control kind of concept. Gamers are the ones who like to split hairs about X being A power, and Y being B power. The writers just make them do cool stuff that conveys the story elements they wanted. Namely in that scene, that Ezra was 2 things:

1. Significantly more powerful than he was in the previous season.

2. Starting to go down a Dark Side leaning path with how he is using the Force.

At no point did any writer ask "Is this an application of the Influence Force power with sufficient upgrades? Or is it more Battle Meditation? Because that's just crunch that they don't care about.

According to the developers, it falls under the Influence emotion upgrade. I specifically asked the Developers about this ability last November.

Quote

OK, here's another question and follow-up question, I just asked and got a very quick response from Sam on:

Quote

On Feb 12, 2017, at 2:21 PM, Tramp Graphics Wrote Rules Question:
I've got a quick (or not so quick) question regarding Battle Meditation, namely about an aspect of the power, as it was originally conceived, that the version in F&D lacks; namely the ability to turn enemies against one another. This, of course is what we see Nomi Sunrider do in the original Tales of the Jedi comics, to first save her daughter from a pair of Hssiss, and later drive off a band of pirates. In the orgininal WEG suppliment for TotJ, this aspect was one of two ways to use Battle Meditation, In the D20 game, it was a Force Skill called Battle Influence which required the Battle Meditation Feat to use. So the question how do I accomplish this aspect of Battle meditation in this system and why wasn't it included as an upgrade for the actual Battle Meditation power?

Sam Stewart Responded:

This sounds like a function of the Influence power, and I would use Influence to accomplish it.

Hope this helps!

Sam Stewart

RPG Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

Follow up:

Quote

On Feb 12, 2017, at 2:37 PM, T ramp Graphics wrote:

OK, how? What upgrades would you use since there is no vocalizations, Nomi just visualizes her enemies fighting one another and moments later that visualization becomes reality.

Sam Stewart Wrote:

I would suggest you use the Influence control upgrade that allows you to manipulate the emotions of others to incite them into rage against their friends. Some of this is also up to your GM, of course, and as always, it may have unexpected consequences in gameplay!

Also, keep in mind that there is a great deal of material in the Legends portion of Star Wars concerning things people can or cannot do with the Force. Some of it may not be covered because there is simply too much material to realistically represent in a single game (even an extensive one). Some of it may also not be represented because it’s Legends, and no longer accurately represents Star Wars canon. However, if there’s something that you wish to accomplish in your game that the rules don’t enable, bring it up with your GM! I’m sure the two of you can work out a mutually agreeable solution that’ll let you and your group have fun at the table.

Hope this helps!

And here's a final "Nomi Sunrider question:

Quote

OK, here's another question and follow-up question, I just asked and got a very quick response from Sam on:

Quote

On Feb 12, 2017, at 2:21 PM, Tramp Graphics Wrote Rules Question:
I've got a quick (or not so quick) question regarding Battle Meditation, namely about an aspect of the power, as it was originally conceived, that the version in F&D lacks; namely the ability to turn enemies against one another. This, of course is what we see Nomi Sunrider do in the original Tales of the Jedi comics, to first save her daughter from a pair of Hssiss, and later drive off a band of pirates. In the orgininal WEG suppliment for TotJ, this aspect was one of two ways to use Battle Meditation, In the D20 game, it was a Force Skill called Battle Influence which required the Battle Meditation Feat to use. So the question how do I accomplish this aspect of Battle meditation in this system and why wasn't it included as an upgrade for the actual Battle Meditation power?

Sam Stewart Responded:

This sounds like a function of the Influence power, and I would use Influence to accomplish it.

Hope this helps!

Sam Stewart

RPG Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

Follow up:

Quote

On Feb 12, 2017, at 3:03 PM, Tramp Graphics wrote:

OK, one final Nomi Sunrider question:

In TotJ The Sith War, Nomi uses a power called Sever Force (a power even mentioned in the Nexus of Power Sourcebook ) to permanently block Ulic Qel Droma's ability to use the Force. This was a Light Side power designed for use against Dark Siders to essentially imprison them in a "wall of light". The closest power in the rules so far is Suppress , but that's not really even close to what Sever Force could do. So how do we do it?

Sam Stewart wrote:
That’s not currently covered in the existing Force powers, so you would want to speak to your GM about how best to go about it, if such a situation came up. I would recommend it be something of a “one off” event in any case.

Hope this helps!

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

According to the developers, it falls under the Influence emotion upgrade. I specifically asked the Developers about this ability last November.

So then what type situation is that Dark Side, "unwilling target" of the Battle Meditation power supposed to represent then? I mean, the wording of it makes it sound a LOT like the actual "meat-puppet" scenario, which is supposed to be reflected by their reduced Willpower. Or at least that was my reading on it. That you basically hijack their bodies to make them work together better. If they are willing, then it's not as invasive, and is more sort of a combined mind type thing.

So what is that BM distinction covering then? It's almost pointless really if all this other kind of mind control is all Influence.

1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

So then what type situation is that Dark Side, "unwilling target" of the Battle Meditation power supposed to represent then? I mean, the wording of it makes it sound a LOT like the actual "meat-puppet" scenario, which is supposed to be reflected by their reduced Willpower. Or at least that was my reading on it. That you basically hijack their bodies to make them work together better. If they are willing, then it's not as invasive, and is more sort of a combined mind type thing.

So what is that BM distinction covering then? It's almost pointless really if all this other kind of mind control is all Influence.

Battle Meditation primarily allows you to boost the abilities of your allies only in this game system; and has no effect on enemies. In D6, Battle Meditation also weakened enemies while simultaneously boosting allies, or could turn enemies against one another (user chose which effect he was using before rolling). In D20 RCRB, Battle Meditation was a feat that could boost allies abilities, while the Force Skill Battle Influence (which required the affore-mentioned feat), could weaken your enemy's resolve or even turn them against one another. In this system, Battle Meditation only boosts allies abilities. When using the Dark Side, it also basically turns your allies into puppets , reducing their Willpower. This is what the Emperor is known to do. The Control upgrade allows you to give simple orders to said allies, by succeeding in an Easy Leadership check. The Mastery upgrade gives all allies affected the same number of ranks in a given skill as that of the highest ally affected if no DSPs were used. The Dark Side version forces them to obey any orders given, if it's against their wishes (requiring an Easy Discipline check to resist). The power, as a whole is intended to work only on allies , unlike previous versions of the power. It's not intended to be used against enemies.

The talking part of the Mind Trick is only so that people know what is happening when the Jedi/Sith waves their hand around. It's a movie gimmick to help the audience follow along. And powers don't need you to move your hands or point your finger to make them happen. Once again, that's all for the audience.

I'd say, provided you agree with your GM before you commit to spending the XP , you can use Mind Trick on any sentient being as per the rules. Language is not a factor as the power evokes the desired response in the target.

1 hour ago, masterstrider said:

Once again, that's all for the audience.

It's a movie. EVERYTHING in it is for the audience. By the same reasoning the characters don't ever need to talk to each other - that's all for the audience, after all.

7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

This is not entirely true. Technically, you don't necessarily even need to speak with someone at all to Influence them. Certain uses of the power can be done with no direct communication at all. For instance, The "Battle Influence" used by Nomi Sunrider in TOTJ, falls under the Emotion upgrade of the Influence power, according to the Developers. She didn't need to say anything to cause her foes to turn on one another. All she needed to do was create an image in her own mind and project that image mentally, and it came to pass. In Rebels , Ezra uses Influence to force an ATST pilot to attack his own allies, once again, with no verbal communication. He simply dominated the pilot's mind. So, no, Language is not a barrier to using Influence . 

Nomi is Legends, so she's irrelevant. Besides, by saying she mentally projected a image into everyone's mind you're agreeing with me that at least one-way communication is necessary to influence someone.

Ezra did something different than the hand-wave & command thing Obi-Wan does, so it works different. Doesn't tell us anything about the mind trick, necessarily.

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

It's a movie. EVERYTHING in it is for the audience. By the same reasoning the characters don't ever need to talk to each other - that's all for the audience, after all.

Nomi is Legends, so she's irrelevant. Besides, by saying she mentally projected a image into everyone's mind you're agreeing with me that at least one-way communication is necessary to influence someone.

Ezra did something different than the hand-wave & command thing Obi-Wan does, so it works different. Doesn't tell us anything about the mind trick, necessarily.

She may be Legends, but, as I posted above, the Devs have ruled that you can use Influence in the manner that she uses to turn enemies against one another, just through the Force, without any verbal communication. As such, you don’t necessarily need to speak the same language in order to affect your targets with Influence, particularly the Emotion upgrade.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

She may be Legends, but, as I posted above, the Devs have ruled that you can use Influence in the manner that she uses to turn enemies against one another, just through the Force, without any verbal communication. As such, you don’t necessarily need to speak the same language in order to affect your targets with Influence, particularly the Emotion upgrade.

What am seeing is a lot of talk by the devs about how you could slightly bend the game to accomplish something. That's not the same as what you're claiming here.

3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

What am seeing is a lot of talk by the devs about how you could slightly bend the game to accomplish something. That's not the same as what you're claiming here.

It’s not “slightly bending” anything. It’s simply one way to use the power. The point is that you don’t necessarily “need” to speak in order to use Influence , much less speak the same language. The power isn’t even restricted to sentient targets either. The target(s) simply must be living . So it also works on animals, and they don’t speak.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The power isn’t even restricted to sentient targets either. The target(s) simply must be living . So it also works on animals, and they don’t speak.

...what do you think goes on when I give a dog a verbal command? You don't have to be able to say "sit, boy" in order to understand it.

12 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

...what do you think goes on when I give a dog a verbal command? You don't have to be able to say "sit, boy" in order to understand it.

Wild animals won’t understand you. Regardless, Influence works on them too. Understanding the one using the power is not a requirement to be targeted, and speech is not required to use Influence on someone either. It’s a purely mental ability.

52 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Wild animals won’t understand you  . 

Exactly. That's why Anakin could only vaguely calm that beast in the Geonosis arena, not give it commands.