Hello everybody,

My question has to do with the second Mission of the Forgotten Age Expansion, to be more concrete with the outcome of it, so I will put everything in spoiler tags.

If this seems like a problem to you, I'd suggest playing Munchkin instead.

The spirit of the ruling is to reset the scenario as it was, not to exploit a loophole. This is not a competitive game, it's often played for the theme and if someone in my group would try to upgrade his/her deck that way, I'd tell them to directly cheat instead and pick whichever cards they like or even better, redraw bad event cards or tokens, for this is tantamount to cheating. Or maybe I'd walk away and suggest playing munchkin instead

Why should I go to play Munchkin if I find a problem in the rule set? How is there any kind of logic behind your argumentation?

"The spirit of the ruling is to reset the scenario as it was" - This is just wrong. You still keep all the traumata you gained during the run. What has any of this to do with cheating? Nothing of this is against the rules.

I guess thanks for spoiling The Forgotten Age?

2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I guess thanks for spoiling The Forgotten Age?

I am very sorry for you, but there is "Spoiler for Path to Carcossa Mission 2" in the title and the question is hidden in a spoiler tag. There is not much else I could have done to warn you of a spoiler.

I would say, there is no point in time where you can upgrade/change your deck.

The rules reference says: "After recording the results of a scenario, the investigators are ready to reflect on their experiences and purchase new cards for their decks."

The campaign guide from the second mission of The Forgotten Age (I think you mean this campaign, not Path to Carcossa) instructs you to not record the result of the scenario. Instead you have to reset the Setup of the scenario.

1 minute ago, Baer said:

I am very sorry for you, but there is "Spoiler for Path to Carcossa Mission 2" in the title and the question is hidden in a spoiler tag. There is not much else I could have done to warn you of a spoiler.

Except for using the correct campaign name? Played path to carcossa, not The Forgotten Age. So why wouldn't I read a spoiler for a campaign I thought I played?

Just now, Astrophil84 said:

I would say, there is no point in time where you can upgrade/change your deck.

The rules reference says: "After recording the results of a scenario, the investigators are ready to reflect on their experiences and purchase new cards for their decks."

The campaign guide from the second mission of The Forgotten Age (I think you mean this campaign, not Path to Carcossa) instructs you to not record the result of the scenario. Instead you have to reset the Setup of the scenario.

Ha! Thanks! Yes, sorry I made a mistake with the name there. I usually only use the App so there was no mentioning of "not to record", so thanks This was the part I was looking for.

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

Except for using the correct campaign name? Played path to carcossa, not The Forgotten Age. So yeah...

My mistake! I will correct this.

its not an infinite loop anyway, because it doesn't work within the rules. nice try though.

I think we're not giving Baer due credit here. Whether right or wrong, whether this is something that is possible/feasible (I will get to that later) to do or not, this is exactly the kind of vigilance that should be encouraged. Baer isn't saying they do this to pwn n00bs or something, they're pointing out a peculiarity in the rules, something that pretty much everyone on this board does as well. Ideally there is no issue. If there is an issue though, it needs to be brought up, recognized, and noted so that we can avoid exploits like it in the future. Coming from LotR LCG, I'm keenly aware of the many infinite combo decks that can beat any scenario on turn 1 or 2. I don't want something like that to find its way into Arkham LCG, whether it's by route of player cards or the scenario resolutions or both. And of course it's easy to say that you just shouldn't play that way: frankly I'd rather it not be possible in the first place. If it is possible, then it's a problem with the game, whether it's being used or not.

On to the question in question itself though. It's not an infinite XP exploit, but certainly you could get a fair amount of XP off of it, which is itself more than worth considering. Astrophil84's point is interesting; that you'd not be able to upgrade because you are going from one setup to another. I'm not sure if I agree or not. It seems like all that is required to use Arcane Research or Adaptable to trigger is for a scenario to end. Which I think it does, as you have reached a resolution (R4).

it definitely does not work with arcane research, because the scenario never ends, it just resets.

you can argue adaptable perhaps, because adaptable says between games, and perhaps you can argue its between games. though i would think a scenario is a game.

Alright, let's bring in the offenders and place them in the lineup.

I'm going to peruse the possible cards that could be upgraded, if this loop works. They must be spells, and must have multiple levels. The following are all that I could discover:

1. Blinding Light (0 -> 2)
2. Mind Wipe (1 -> 3)
3. Mists of R'lyeh (0 -> 4)
4. Rite of Seeking (0 -> 4)
5. Scrying (0 -> 3)
6. Shrivelling (0 -> 3 -> 5)
7. Ward of Protection (0 -> 2 -> 5)

#1 & 7 (Blinding Light & Ward of Protection) could be upgraded from 0 to 2 with no additional XP. #2 (Mind Wipe) requires at least 1 XP spent in advance to then go from 1 to 3.

To Max Out each copy of each card, you'd need to additionally spend:

1. 0XP - Blinding Light (0 -> 2)
2. 1XP - Mind Wipe (1 -> 3)
3. 2XP - Mists of R'lyeh (0 -> 4)
4. 2XP - Rite of Seeking (0 -> 4)
5. 1XP - Scrying (0 -> 3)
6. 1XP - Shrivelling (0 -> 3 -> 5)
7. 1XP - Ward of Protection (0 -> 2 -> 5)

And, you'd have to have that XP from the previous scenario. I suppose you could play the Stand-Alone scenarios for bonus XP between scenarios TFA-1 & TFA-2. You could even play the Night of the Zealot (or Return, if that provides more XP).

So, to do all 7 (available at present), you'd need 16XP & 18 trips around the scenario loop, which @awp832 pointed out would net you 10 VPs (Vengeance Points).

And presumably, your fellow travelers will pop into town for a coffee while you min-max.

4 hours ago, C2K said:

its not an infinite loop anyway, because it doesn't work within the rules. nice try though.

And I was hoping to find an explanation in the rules which was now pointed out.

Awp832 This would be definitly be an interesting idea for maxing out your deck as well as the enemy deck. Going tall on both sides.

Duciris this is definitly an interesting breakdown which would lead to"go big" for everyone. My playgroup is such that they would join the min maxing

@Duciris Upgrading a card costs 1 XP minimum, so you're paying:

1. 1 XP per copy of Blinding Light (0 -> 2)
2. 2 XP per copy of Mind Wipe (-> 1 -> 3)
3. 2 XP per copy of Mists of R'lyeh (0 -> 4)
4. 2 XP per copy of Rite of Seeking (0 -> 4)
5. 1 XP per copy of Scrying (0 -> 3)
6. 2 XP per copy of Shriveling (0 -> 3 -> 5)
7. 2 XP per copy of Ward of Protection (0 -> 2 -> 5)

That's 24 XP (and still 18 loops) if you want the whole thing (which I find unrealistic).

11 hours ago, Baer said:

Why should I go to play Munchkin if I find a problem in the rule set? How is there any kind of logic behind your argumentation?

I could explain the obvious logic, but if you didn't understand the first time, I see no point in developing it further. I take you didn't pick the Munchkin reference? If you see this as "a problem", there's not much more I could say except to go on and exploit the "bug" to your advantage.

11 hours ago, Baer said:

"The spirit    of the ruling is to reset the scenario as it was" - This is just wrong. You still keep all the traumata you  gained during the run. What has any of this to do with   cheating? Nothing of this is against the rules. 

Well, if we're going to be pedantic, trauma refers to the investigators, not the scenario, properly speaking. So the scenario is actually reset, the investigators' previous state is not. Still not interested in munchkining the game, even if the rules could allow you to do so. Have fun if you like to play it that way, anyway.

1 hour ago, Khudzlin said:

@Duciris Upgrading a card costs 1 XP minimum, so you're paying:

1. 1 XP per copy of Blinding Light (0 -> 2)
2. 2 XP per copy of Mind Wipe (-> 1 -> 3)
3. 2 XP per copy of Mists of R'lyeh (0 -> 4)
4. 2 XP per copy of Rite of Seeking (0 -> 4)
5. 1 XP per copy of Scrying (0 -> 3)
6. 2 XP per copy of Shriveling (0 -> 3 -> 5)
7. 2 XP per copy of Ward of Protection (0 -> 2 -> 5)

That's 24 XP (and still 18 loops) if you want the whole thing (which I find unrealistic).

Upgrading 0-> 2 with two arcane researches is ruled to cost 0 XP (because 2-2=0)

You have still to pay the 1 Xp cost of purchasing a card. I don’t have the rulebook with me but it is stated somewhere that purchasing any card always costs 1 xp (even a level 0 card, that’s why Adaptable may be useful). There is a statement of Matt Newman somewhere about Arcane Research not allowing you to get cards for free because of that.

So you can’t purchase cards for free and you can’t use 2 arcane research to upgrade an xp2 spell for free (but you can upgrade an xp3 spell for one xp). So no loop here.

Also you have to put a doom for each time you’ve tried the scenario before on the first location so good luck with that!

1 minute ago, Fishiste said:

You have still to pay the 1 Xp cost of purchasing a card. I don’t have the rulebook with me but it is stated somewhere that purchasing any card always costs 1 xp (even a level 0 card, that’s why Adaptable may be useful). There is a statement of Matt Newman somewhere about Arcane Research not allowing you to get cards for free because of that.

So you can’t purchase cards for free and you can’t use 2 arcane research to upgrade an xp2 spell for free (but you can upgrade an xp3 spell for one xp). So no loop here.

Also you have to put a doom for each time you’ve tried the scenario before on the first location so good luck with that!

He overturned this ruling.

Quote

Ruling overturned : I will reverse my earlier ruling to suit the language in the FAQ, as this directly contradicts the minimum stated in the Rules Reference. The 1xp minimum does not apply to upgrading cards, and Arcane Research can therefore decrease the xp cost to upgrade a card to 0.

( https://arkhamdb.com/card/04109 )

Forget it, I didn't see the clarification. Sorry

1 hour ago, Astrophil84 said:

He overturned this ruling.

( https://arkhamdb.com/card/04109 )

Wow I missed that!

then it works. But with the additional doom, it’s still uncertain how you could benefit from it. Maybe with 4 Mystics all playing arcane research. Hum.

However, you're not getting any XP from resolution 4 of Doom of Eztli, so you need to coast on the XP you gained in Untamed Wilds.

I tend to agree with the earlier statement that Arcane research can't trigger here because we never actually finish the scenario. We're always within the confines of it when it makes us loop

On 8/24/2018 at 12:13 PM, Freeman said:

Or maybe I'd walk away and suggest playing munchkin instead

Look, I totally get what you're saying but suggesting other people "just go play Munchkin" is in direct violation of the Geneva convention.

It's worse than waterboarding. Not even the CIA would subject enemy combatants to Munchkin in the blackest of their blacksites.

Munchkin is such a great game...