The Ordos Xenos has always been the least interesting for me. I’m definitely more into Hereticus (sedition, psykers, heresy) and Malleus (fricking Daemons!). So, I’m definitely planning on incorporating Deathwatch into DH/ASC but how do I do it?

The Malleus have the Grey Knights which likely will be in a different book than DW. I’d say we can certainly expect them. And the Hereticus have the Sisters.

So what is my fluff explanation for allowing SM’s into working with one of these other Ordos on a regular basis? Besides crafting the campaign plot in a way that they would be interested such as injecting Traitor Marines, placing it in Jericho Reach or the Margin Crusades or the like. Anyone have any good ideas?
The Ordos Xenos has always been the least interesting for me. I’m definitely more into Hereticus (sedition, psykers, heresy) and Malleus (fricking Daemons!). So, I’m definitely planning on incorporating Deathwatch into DH/ASC but how do I do it?

The Malleus have the Grey Knights which likely will be in a different book than DW. I’d say we can certainly expect them. And the Hereticus have the Sisters. And I would like the different Chapters to be available which rules out having a particular Chapter involved specifically.

So what is my fluff explanation for allowing SM’s into working with one of these other Ordos on a regular basis? Besides crafting the campaign plot in a way that they would be interested such as injecting Traitor Marines, placing it in Jericho Reach or the Margin Crusades or the like. Anyone have any good ideas?

If a situation is particularly dire and none of the appropriate Chambers Militant are available, Deathwatch could very well fill the void, at least temporarily. The truth is however that Inquisitorial Storm Troopers or a nearby Chapter of Space Marines would be much more likely to be called on by a Maleus/Hereticus Inquisitor than the Deathwatch. As far as a long term campaign you're going to pretty much have to rewrite what Deathwatch are all about to make it work. Official lore says they are expert xenos fighters, and that that's what they do on 99% of their missions.

There is one other option: come up with a warp-tainted/daemon summoning alien species as your antagonists. They could even be allied with human heretics and Traitor Marines. That might work perfectly for what you want.

Remember that the true origin of a lot of problems isn't known until there's been an investigation. Mysterious psychic disruption coming from a Space Hulk? Why that could be xenos, or heretic psykers, or warp monsters. You won't know until you set boots on the ground. Adding to this is that the Deathwatch are loyal servants of the Imperium. They're alien killers by specialization and that is their main mission, but that doesn't mean they won't come to the rescue if they're the only ones who can do the job and the job is important enough.

Cynical Cat said:

Deathwatch aren't investigators though. The Inquisition doesn't say "Hey we've got some weird heretical behavior going on on world X let's send the Deathwatch to investigate..." That's what DH is about. If the Inquisition sends the Deathwatch in it's to almost always going to be to fight aliens that someone else already discovered.

I am in a similar boat. Running a 3 tiered campaign with all 3 systems. But it revolves around Malleus.

I will have to do alot of work with the DW core book, but I imagine that will not stop GMs from doing it

Alexis

*smiles*

Atheosis said:

Not necessarily. The old Deathwatch graphic novel depicted a Deathwatch Killteam being part of an investigation into a genestealer cult.

In broader terms, I can easily imagine Deathwatch teams being sent into to situations where the enemy is an unknown but believed to be exceedingly dangerous and hostile - boarding Space Hulks, delving into ancient, unidentified Xenos ruins, uncovering the menace that made a regiment of Imperial Guardsmen vanish without a trace. The ultimate intention will often be "kill it with fire", but that doesn't mean that they'll always be going into places where others have done the investigative work beforehand.

To paraphrase James Kirk, the role of the Deathwatch is to seek out new life and new civilisations... and kill them with fire.

Cailieg said:

With a little bit of system tweaking you should be able to run stuff with Grey Knights which would fit your Maleus theme much better.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Such circumstances can arise from time to time, but that doesn't make Deathwatch investigators by any means. In such situations it's almost always obvious that a threat is of Xenos origin, even if the exact nature of it is unknown. What my post was responding to was the idea that the Inquisition would use the Deathwatch to investigate a situation that they know so little about that they can't even say whether it's Xenos or not. That just wouldn't happen. That's why the Inquisition has disposable peons called acolytes .

Atheosis said:

What my post was responding to was the idea that the Inquisition would use the Deathwatch to investigate a situation that they know so little about that they can't even say whether it's Xenos or not. That just wouldn't happen. That's why the Inquisition has disposable peons called acolytes .

Thing is, I disagree (obviously, really; if I agreed, I wouldn't be writing this post). Which resources are used where is a matter of individual discretion on the part of the investigating Inquisitor.

The idea of throwing Acolytes to their certain doom essentially out of curiosity doesn't personally appeal to me, at least not unless the Inquisitor is trying to get rid of a troublesome or ineffective cell. Expendable they may be... but so is everyone else, from the most renowned Inquisitors and the greatest of Astartes heroes to the lowliest hive-scum. This is the Imperium we're talking about, and life in the Imperium is cheap no matter who you are...

But expendable in theory does not equate to "get them killed because that's what they're there for". They're a resource, a source of intelligence which is far more useful if it comes back alive to pass on that information.

The Deathwatch are similarly a resource, to be used for whatever purposes their master determines for them. Between them, a Deathwatch Killteam may have extensive knowledge of Xenos species both widely-known and obscure, and individual members may possess skills vital to a particular operation - if you're hunting down a Lictor (whether or not you know it to be a Lictor at the time), having a Space Wolf to take the lead tracking it is an asset. They aren't just front line soldiers or conventional shock troops - if that was all that was needed, the Inquisition would just ask to borrow a Tactical Squad from a willing Chapter (I hear the Red Hunters have a particular inclination to help the Inquisition). The Deathwatch, like Acolyte cells, must engage in activities which may be somewhat unusual for their peers not in service to the Inquisition. Investigations may ultimately boil down to 'search and destroy', though the search part may be more in-depth than the Astartes are typically used to.

That Guard platoon butchered by Tau weaponry in a region where the Tau aren't known to operate? Could as easily be a Xenophile conspiracy sponsored by the Tau as a vanguard. Can't tell if a foe is Xenos or Daemonic in nature? Maybe it's both (the Yu'Vath in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are known to have been Xenos who extensively used warp-spawned sorcery and the like).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Atheosis said:

What my post was responding to was the idea that the Inquisition would use the Deathwatch to investigate a situation that they know so little about that they can't even say whether it's Xenos or not. That just wouldn't happen. That's why the Inquisition has disposable peons called acolytes .

Thing is, I disagree (obviously, really; if I agreed, I wouldn't be writing this post). Which resources are used where is a matter of individual discretion on the part of the investigating Inquisitor.

The idea of throwing Acolytes to their certain doom essentially out of curiosity doesn't personally appeal to me, at least not unless the Inquisitor is trying to get rid of a troublesome or ineffective cell. Expendable they may be... but so is everyone else, from the most renowned Inquisitors and the greatest of Astartes heroes to the lowliest hive-scum. This is the Imperium we're talking about, and life in the Imperium is cheap no matter who you are...

But expendable in theory does not equate to "get them killed because that's what they're there for". They're a resource, a source of intelligence which is far more useful if it comes back alive to pass on that information.

The Deathwatch are similarly a resource, to be used for whatever purposes their master determines for them. Between them, a Deathwatch Killteam may have extensive knowledge of Xenos species both widely-known and obscure, and individual members may possess skills vital to a particular operation - if you're hunting down a Lictor (whether or not you know it to be a Lictor at the time), having a Space Wolf to take the lead tracking it is an asset. They aren't just front line soldiers or conventional shock troops - if that was all that was needed, the Inquisition would just ask to borrow a Tactical Squad from a willing Chapter (I hear the Red Hunters have a particular inclination to help the Inquisition). The Deathwatch, like Acolyte cells, must engage in activities which may be somewhat unusual for their peers not in service to the Inquisition. Investigations may ultimately boil down to 'search and destroy', though the search part may be more in-depth than the Astartes are typically used to.

That Guard platoon butchered by Tau weaponry in a region where the Tau aren't known to operate? Could as easily be a Xenophile conspiracy sponsored by the Tau as a vanguard. Can't tell if a foe is Xenos or Daemonic in nature? Maybe it's both (the Yu'Vath in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are known to have been Xenos who extensively used warp-spawned sorcery and the like).

Your examples still involve a certain known Xenos element...

Seeing as Inquisitors don't have free access to Deathwatch Kill-teams like they do to cells of acolytes, I just don't see what your saying. Inquisitors have to petition Deathwatch for aid, they don't just have Kill-teams on speed dial, ready to do whatever they tell them at the of a hat. The Deathwatch are quite a bit more dignified (and busy) than that.

This is one of the things that bugs me with a lot of peoples' interpretation of Inquisitors: this idea that anything and everything they want is right at the tip of their fingers whenever they need it. That's not how the Deathwatch works, and Inquisitors aren't going to request Kill-teams for some potential wild goose chase for the simple fact that the Deathwatch will likely tell them "Sorry we have more pressing matters at the moment." After all, there are a very limited number of Kill-teams spread throughout the Imperium (likely less than the number Space Marine Chapters), while there is an uncountable number of heresies happening at each moment.

Atheosis said:

You make it sound like there's a single, centralised command structure for the Deathwatch. As far as we know, that's not the case - just as you can't petition "The Inquisition" as a whole because there's no true centralised command structure (local command structures are self-imposed formalities for the sake of political expedience and resource sharing), you can't petition "the Deathwatch" as a whole either - presumably, you'd contact an Inquisition fortress or similar local centre of authority and work from there.

Atheosis said:

In theory, an Inquisitor can do as he wishes with any resources the Imperium possesses, at any time, without giving justification. In practice, there is the necessity of a little more tact and a more circumspect approach, but an Inquisitor can still commandeer planets and battlefleets should the situation require them.

The Deathwatch is a simpler matter - it's an Inquisition resource. It exists specifically for the Inquisition to utilise. They're scarce, certainly, but that doesn't change their purpose, which is to serve the Inquisition.

Atheosis said:

And that changes one thing and one thing only - the consideration an Inquisitor will give to utilising that resource. An Inquisitor really has one objective and one objective only - to protect the Imperium from threats of all kinds (the Malleus/Xenos/Hereticus/Sicarius/etc divisions are little more than declarations of specialisation essentially). An Inquisitor's access to resources is essentially limited only by his will to utilise the limitless authority he possesses, and everything is a resource. What matters, then, is how those resources are utilised; this is a matter determined by a given individual Inquisitor based on the information he has, the information he needs, and the situations that require resolution. If an Inquisitor deems a task to require the use of warriors of one of the Chambers Militant, and has access to warriors of one of the Chambers Militant, then guess what will happen...

Just to clear something up... my question was how to get Space Marines cooperating or in the retinue of an Inquisitor where they are NOT one of the Chambers Militant. My statement about incorporating Deathwatch was confusing... I should have stated that I wanted to incorporate the inclusion of Space Marines as a kill-team into DH/ASC. Obviously, an Ordo Xenos can call on Deathwatch, Malleus on Grey Knights and Hereticus on Sororitas. I was more thinking about how I can get a Space Marine or a squad working with an Inquisitor on a semi-standard basis. Especially a squad that has the multiple chapter make-up of the Deathwatch if possible. Obviously, getting a

Some ideas I came up with...

1. Inquisitor did something so impressive that the Astartes Chapter pledges its aid or a lasting debt to the Inquisitor. "Six brothers, in perpetuity, to assist her in her struggles against the Enemy. Let all brothers know that to serve under Inquisitor X is a honor, a chosen few to be her mailed fist, and that honor is only to go to the best of us."

2. Inquisitor was present when the Chapter was so betrayed or dishonored or beaten, that she is granted a squad to assist her in tracking down Enemy X. These brothers are chosen for the honor of the Chapter and to bring their vengeance onto Enemy X who happens to be the Inquisitor's nemesis.

3. The Jericho Reach sounds interesting because you are going to be able to put Inquisitors into the line of battle. Calixis is relatively quiet on that front... no Chaos Worlds, invasions unless you get nasty on your players. But in JR/DW, there will be entire fronts of battle. In addition, Imperium planets exist there as well so an Inquisitor may move from being investigator to regional commander and back again.

I would note that there are several references to SM squads, including DW, tasked on a semi-permanent or extended basis to an Inquisitor. But I would agree that most Inquisitors would need to request the assistance of any Chambers Militant. The simple fact of their being needed in multiple places and fielding multiple requests would create this situation. A DW Captain would likely receive pleas from Inquisitors on a regular basis and need to apportion troops to the threats that they felt were most critical. Obviously, politics and personal inclinations would also be factored into this decision.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

1) Of course there is a command structure within the Deathwatch (not sure how centralized it is or isn't). They are still a Space Marine Chapter after all. Also the Deathwatch possesses their own fortresses and facilities, so no an Inquisitor wouldn't contact an Inquisition fortress to ask the Deathwatch for a Kill-team, they would contact a Deathwatch fortress or command center directly instead.

2) Yes the Deathwatch exists to serve the Inquisition. They don't however exist to serve the whims of individual Inquisitors. I would think the difference rather clear. The Deathwatch doesn't just do whatever an Inquisitor tells them. In fact their existence would be utterly untenable if they did, for every Inquisitor has their own goals and schemes (and corresponding needs). If the Deathwatch just did whatever any Inquisitor told them, they would soon find themselves stretched well beyond their limited means.

3) I think you missed my point on the limited number of Kill-teams. The point was that an Inquisitor's petition would be rejected by the Deathwatch (with the support of the larger body of Inquisition) if the need was deemed less pressing than the needs of their fellow Inquisitors due to the simple reality that there aren't enough Kill-teams for every Inquisitor who decides it might be useful to have a team of super soldiers on hand. The reality is that there are many, many more Inquisitors than Kill-teams, so not every Inquisitor can just order one up whenever they feel like it.

Atheosis said:

Are they a Space Marine Chapter, though? Even by the standards of the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, they're diffuse and lack essentially all of the common features of an Astartes Chapter save for them being a collection of Space Marines - most noticably no common spiritual or genetic background and no standardised recruitment of new Marines (they only recruit trained, experienced Marines from elsewhere, and only temporarily).

I don't honestly believe that they are a Chapter in any sense, even an unconventional one.

Atheosis said:

There is no Inquisition without Inquisitors. Individual Inquisitors are the Inquisition. Each and every one of them possesses exactly the same theoretical authority and can bring to bear the full might of the Imperium of Man - any distinctions between Inquisitors are matters of internal politics only. There is no Grand Master of the Inquisition who oversees everything else, no formal internal command structure or anything else of the sort. If someone serves the Inquisition, then they serve individual Inquisitors.

Inquisitors have their own politics, their own methods and motives and their own agendas... but they're all duty-bound and trained to put one thing above themselves - the Imperium. That is, afterall, why they exist. The politics and divisions within the Inquisition concern the methods and means of defending the Imperium, and that's it (those with more selfish motives tend to be weeded out fairly quickly by rivals).

If you refuse to obey an Inquisitorial order, regardless of who you are, you had better have a good reason for doing so - because quite frankly, it's the equivalent of telling the Emperor to sod off. That goes double for those who exist specifically to serve the Inquisition. I'm not saying that a given Killteam won't be able to refuse - if they're already deployed at the behest of another Inquisitor, then that's fair enough (it becomes a matter for the two Inquisitors to debate, at which point Inquisitorial politics become an issue).

Atheosis said:

How many Inquisitors do you believe there are? More pertinently, how many Inquisitors are going to be in a situation where the deployment of Deathwatch is necessary or desired? Many Inquisitors operate entire through subtle methods - infiltration, deployment of assassins, blackmail and other techniques where a Deathwatch Killteam are too obvious and too dramatic in effect to be appropriate. Others may prefer to utilise the Grey Knights or the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas, or their own private armies. Others may be content to draw from conventional forces (including Astartes Chapters) if necessary. There are just as many Inquisitors - particularly those of an unorthodox persuasion - who may not want to allow their operations to be scrutinised by anyone from the Chambers Militant.

Also note that this applies to all the Chambers Militant, as does all of this discussion; consequently, the Deathwatch aren't necessarily going to be divided between all Inquisitors, or even all Inquisitors that need heavy armed support for a given task.

Also remember that the Deathwatch doesn't exist purely to kill aliens. They exist to study aliens as well, to learn their strengths and weaknesses. Their role is inherently investigative insomuch as they are called upon to investigate the methods and abilities of their enemies so that the Imperium can better defend itself against those foes.

6Kilgs said:

I'd go with option 4: An Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus/Malleus (in dire need of Astartes Support) goes to the nearest chapter, demands a squad of marines. Chapter Master obeys, unless he can conceive of a really good reason to say no.

The Inquisition can and do make demands of Space Marine chapters. Realistically, of course, an Inquisitor's ability to boss marines around will depend on his influence (otherwise the chapter master will go complain to a more influential Inquisitor and get the orders countermanded), but if an Inquisitor really wants an astartes on his retinue then he can probably get one.

macd21 said:

Hate to break it to you, but that's not really how the Astartes/Inquisition relationship works.

The Inquisition maintains a large amount of power, yes.

But the Astartes aren't within that frame of power. The Astartes are a law unto themselves, what with being considered the 'sons of the Emperor' and all. An Inquisitor can start making demands all he wants at a Chapter. If the Chapter's feeling particularly friendly and don't feel insulted at being bossed around by someone whose power is built upon their efforts...they might aid him, or they might tell him to piss off, and do whatever they feel like.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

A lot more than you apparently.

Anyway let's just agree to disagree. I don't think we're going to convince each other of anything.

The Forge World books for the Siege of Vraks talks about the Red Hunters Space Marine Chapter, which works closely with the Inquisition and, if memory serves, does not follow the Codex Astartes in formation. You could have Space Marines that are specifically detailed to the Inquisition for missions, etc.

-Cynr

Kanluwen said:

No. Unless there's been another retcon, then the Astartes, while outside the bounds of the administratum of the Imperium, still fall under the authority of the Inquisition. In terms of authority, it's Emperor - Inquisition - Everyone else. If an Inquisitor orders a marine to do something he is obliged to do so, or else be considered a traitor.

Or at least, that's the theory. In practice the astartes usually have enough power and influence that they can resist unreasonable commands by an Inquisitor they don't like. They can't just refuse outright, however. They need a good enough excuse that they can take to the nearest Lord Inquisitor. If the LI decides that the Inquisitor's demand was reasonable, then the astartes are in trouble.

macd21 said:

You're both right and you're both wrong. This topic is anything but black and white.

Kanluwen said:

What Kanluwen said. When thinking about the Inquisition and its power, you have to keep certain things in mind. In regards to Inquisitions influence and power the Imperium is basically a tripod. Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Astartes both make up one leg. All the rest ( Ecclesiarchy, Administratum etc. ) form the Imperium proper around the third leg. When dealing with the two others "legs" he is facing de facto autonomous, allied factions, that can ( and often will ) balk if an Inquisitor tries to run roughshod over them.

A wise and canny Inquisitor will try to build ties with a Chapter and cloth his needs as "requests" and not "demands". Politics is fun .

Atheosis said:

This is a bit more my interpretation. Theoretically, everything falls under the purview of the Inquisition but there is a lot more going on than throwing your weight around. Everyone has their own agenda and their own powerbase. Once you hit the apex of power, there’s a lot of give/take and quid pro quo going on.

Take a look at real-life examples and then extrapolate them a hundred times for the size and breadth of the Imperium. Political groups and factions are always hindering each other’s efforts despite who is actually supposed to be in power. The US Attorney General says one thing, the state Attorney Generals say another thing. The FBI says this, the military does something else. On a local level, what happens when a DA and Sheriff disagree… they’re essentially the same rank although the DA is supposed to out-rank when it comes to setting policy. Doesn’t always work that way.

Everyone always their own agenda and proclivities. Just because someone has the rank doesn’t mean that everyone is going to work well with each other. There are all sorts of things that can go “wrong” with a request. An Inquisitor who starts pushing people around is going to get put in a position where they always have to push someone around. Think of the difference between Commodus Voke and Eisenhorn.

I think any power bloc is able to resist or stymie the efforts of an Inquisitor. It takes guile, resources and a **** good alibi but it can be done. Each ‘pillar’ is a power in and of itself. The Administratum, Munitorum, Astartes, Telepathica, Imperial Commanders etc…

That's what Ascension is about. The Inquisitor is now working in those hallowed ranks where politics and self-preservation are everything.

macd21 said:

The reasons of the Inquisitor weren´t good enough for the space marines.

Kryptman was nearly executed by ventris, without any punishment from the I or the smurfs.

I think the complaint of an chapter master would be lecture the fool of inquisitor who tried to boss him around, of the follishness of this act.

warpdancer said:

Again, it depends on the realities on the ground. However if a SM refuses a reasonable demand from an Inquisitor then he better have some Inquisitorial allies in his back pocket or else his fellow marines will be ordered to execute him. A smart Inquisitor makes sure that his demands are reasonable.

Of course, a really smart Inquisitor asks nicely. A reallly really smart Inquisitor retains a lot of his fellow Inquisitors as allies, so that if the SM complains to the Lord Inquisitor the response will be "do as your told and stop whining". The point is that there is nothing unusual or unreasonable about an individual Inquisitor having a couple of marines to serve him.

macd21 said:

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh. The Astartes don't complain to "a Lord Inquisitor".

They petition the High Lords of Terra directly, which includes an Inquisitorial representative whose power is solely based on the good will of the Astartes.