So an earlier version of this post was severely wrong about rules terminology. Scrapped it to not be posting dumb misinformation

Basically it was about how A-wings and Z95 swarms with cluster missiles and swarm tactics can create busted numbers of attack rolls, potentially up to 60 dice rolled during your attack phase at ps 7 with roark. I was wrong about that.

What you can do is potentially roll 84 red dice with your squad during the attack phase at ps. 1, or roll 60 red dice at ps 5.

see the other posts about cluster missiles, but basically a cluster missile can potentially attack 4 different ships at 3 attack each, or 12 dice total. A swarm is broken

37 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

but   the point is you have a group of agile arc dodg  ers [...]

  it  does requi  re flying in a blo  b 

Which one is it?

You found a one-trick pony list where a clunky blob of slow moving ships, slowed by the HWK, can win at jousting. It is good at one thing, and one thing only.

why is it so different from a TIE or other bomber swarm? Don‘t complain if you joust against a better jouster!

I give you another one trick pony that destroys your squad before they can shoot at PS7, and it only costs 88p, too! 2 cutlass with TrajSim and ProtonBombs deal each of your Awings 2 damage cards before engagement phase. (E: The 1 crit goes first to shields with 2.0 protons? Fine, double the punishers and the argument doesn‘t change)

What does that show? Those fringe cases are exactly that: fringe. Not imba, not broken, and not even an NPE.

Good catch.

This should probably been a limited card. They do have the ability to alter the cost. I could envision the cost growing considerably after the firdt one: 3/9/15 and so is on.

This sounds rubbish.

39 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

but the point is you have a group of agile arc dodgers getting to target lock, reposition and shoot with full knowledge of where enemies moved even if you have both initiative and and higher pilot skill. this seems... not a great experience?

No you don't.

Roark; .. If you do it engages at initiative 7 instead of its standard initiative value this phase.

Movement and actions happen at normal init. you just pew pew at init 7.

I don't think you're reading the rules right. Roark allows a ship to engage outside its usual initiative during the engagement phase, swarm tactics lets you give your initiative to another ship during the engagement phase.

The ship doesn't technically become initiative 7, it just engages at initiative 7.

2 minutes ago, Sk3tch said:

No you don't.

Roark; .. If you do it engages at initiative 7 instead of its standard initiative value this phase.

Movement and actions happen at normal init. you just pew pew at init 7.

Also can't be passed around, since your initiative is still what it was. Combo doesn't even work!

It is rubbish.

4 Awings means 3 are GSP and 1 is a phoenix, Ini 3 and 1, respectively.

How do they get the TL against ships that move after?

And if they go against 4 Ywings, these Ywings are either higher Ini (how do you get the TL?), lower ini (what changed here, really?) or same Ini.

For the fringe case of Initiative 3 opponents, it only matters when the opponent has taken/was given initiative. In that fringe case, he moves first and fires last. And the only difference is that you lost simultaneous fire. (E: and, as the others pointed out, just for 1 ship...)

9 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Also can't be passed around, since your initiative is still what it was. Combo doesn't even work!

We should fix this. Swarm tactics and Roark is unplayable jank! Doesnt even work. Rebels need a ps7 alpha strike option that isnt luke.

/s

11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Which one is it?

You found a one-trick pony list where a clunky blob of slow moving ships, slowed by the HWK, can win at jousting. It is good at one thing, and one thing only.

why is it so different from a TIE or other bomber swarm? Don‘t complain if you joust against a better jouster!

I give you another one trick pony that destroys your squad before they can shoot at PS7, and it only costs 88p, too! 2 cutlass with TrajSim and ProtonBombs deal each of your Awings 2 damage cards before engagement phase. (E: The 1 crit goes first to shields with 2.0 protons? Fine, double the punishers and the argument doesn‘t change)

What does that show? Those fringe cases are exactly that: fringe. Not imba, not broken, and not even an NPE.

Um, you missed like so many points pretty wilfully

First, ships flying in formation can arc-dodge TOGETHER. A bananna is also a fruit, Shocking as that may be. The A-wings all get a free boost no matter what, and could barrel roll first if they have to. The hawk can boost as an action but it doesnt have to to start the chain

Second, lots of broken stuff is one trick... it still isnt fun. Unhittable soontir was not fun. Rebel jank was not fun. You could beat both with the right list, but they warped the whole game around countering their one trick. The sole justification for 2.0 was to prevent this stuff

Third, your bombers dont just place bombs on the Roided jankers, you have to maneuver. At ps 7 they know what youve moved so they can likely escape with actions. You can win by flying better, but you would need to be more skilled than the opponent. You'd need a handicap to reliable just nuke 6 ships with 2 bombs

Fourth, i pointedly did not say it wins against every list. I said that it broken against many lists in a way that violates the core game concept. A decimator list might do okay here, who knows. But the point is that it immediately removes a dozens of lists from the meta if people start using it. The same thing happened in 1.0 when alpha strikes got stupid, and it led to 2.0

Fifth, just turn it down a notch. If you disagree say so, thats cool. Its what I was posting this to discuss and your thoughts are as welcome as anyones. Its a discussion board. But the weirdly personal tone you take almost every time I post and the aggression are off point

32 minutes ago, Sk3tch said:

No you don't.

Roark; .. If you do it engages at initiative 7 instead of its standard initiative value this phase.

Movement and actions happen at normal init. you just pew pew at init

34 minutes ago, HealOverTime said:

I don't think you're reading the rules right. Roark allows a ship to engage outside its usual initiative during the engagement phase, swarm tactics lets you give your initiative to another ship during the engagement phase.

The ship doesn't technically become initiative 7, it just engages at initiative 7.

Ha yeah, i dont have the game in hand obviously so i looked it up online. the thing i read didnt specify that they were calling the combat phase "engagement phase" now. The way it was worded ive been thinking that engagement phase meant both movement and combat.

Well I feel pretty silly then.

Whole thing still works at ps 4 then, and can actuslly roll 72 dice in the volly without roark

So... yeah, it doesn't work. Because Roark no longer changes a ship's PS.

And even if it did, it doesn't work. Because they still activate at their normal initiative, so they still have the low-PS-generic lock problem.

And even if it did, it doesn't work. Because you can only afford Homing Missiles if you want all the ships to be elite and have missiles, so your opponent can largely just choose to take the easy out.

And even if it did it doesn't work, because you're still only getting a single-modded attack, no defence mods, and your linked action can only be a boost, which Roark doesn't have, so keeping the formation together is tricksy.

Sooooo no the sky is not falling, for at least 4 different reasons.

Massed ordnance volleys are definitely scary, but not for this reason. Jonus/Jendon bomber swarms OTOH...

13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yeah.. no. I want to see you dodging arcs with 4 awings and keep them together.

You may have misunderstood what one trick means here: one good approach. Soontir was not one trick as he was both an amazing arc dodger and an amazing jouster. Same with GhostFenn. They are one trick in the sense that they can keep doing one thing and prevail. But they have other options, too.

First, you have to include a ps1 awing who already telegraphs where your block will be. Even without that, the range1 bubble of a bomb is huge and I know from where you can shoot missiles. Second, they don‘t move at ps7 which does not matter in the case of in2 cutlass, but you seem

Really now, alphastrikes are what led to 2.0? And it was designed to prevent this? Please tell me more of your knowledge from behind the curtains. Because that is not supported by publicly available information.

You make two threads in two days that are simply wrong. Like, objectively wrong. But you are outraged! Maybe think first?

Youre just an aggressively negative person huh?

I read a bit of terminology wrong in a rulebook that isnt even released yet. I admitted i was wrong. Chill out.

The immediate toxicity you go to on here is innapropriate

39 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Youre just an aggressively negative person huh?

I read a bit of terminology wrong in a rulebook that isnt even released yet. I admitted i was wrong. Chill out.

The immediate toxicity you go to on here is innapropriate

I don‘t mind being wrong. In fact that‘s great and an opportunity to learn.

What I do mind, and very much so, is always the same: ignorant and in false claims based outrage.

You did not open this thread asking whether this combo is potentially an NPE. Oh no, your outrage was palpable. You even invented a cute little story to further turn it more emotional. And that is the problem. Being wrong is fine, great even. But hubris* based on false facts is not.

Edit:

As for this: „ The immediate toxicity you go to on here is innapropriate“

It might be, but you keep doing this, again and again and again. You don‘t learn to be less outraged.

Clearly I also don‘t learn, there was a reason for you being the first person on my ignore list. Your hiatus has apparently not changed that reason.

2. Edit: *an example for your incredible hubris is that you again did not learn your lesson. Instead you went directly on to find a new target for your outrage. Again completely wrong!

Quote

What you can do is potentially roll 84 red dice with your squad during the attack phase at ps. 1, or roll 60 red dice at ps 5.

see the other posts about cluster missiles, but basically a cluster missile can potentially attack 4 different ships at 3 attack each, or 12 dice total. A swarm is broken

2 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

see the other posts about cluster missiles, but basically a cluster missile can potentially attack 4 different ships at 3 attack each, or 12 dice total. A swarm is broken

Not having seen the pre-edited version; I'm just looking at this one.

How? Cluster missiles are explicitly a bonus attack, of which you can only perform one, even if you come up with some means to double-activate a ship. Therefore unless I've missed something you can never fire off more than one cluster missile volley per turn, and - barring some serious investment in support ships, elite talents, or what have you, the second 3-dice attack is going to be completely unmodified, which makes it next to useless against any target with a half-decent agility.

The most dice you can throw is a Z-95 swarm with cluster missiles - which can rack up 42 dice if you can lock all of them and have a viable secondary target for all of their bonus attacks.

Which is still - I hasten to agree - going to hurt like heck. It's 7 3-dice attacks, after all, and even if a Z-95 gets wasted before it fires, 6 of them can really rip into an enemy squad if it dares face them head-on.

If you are going to back pedal on a post, would you be so kind as to leave your original content, but to change the font to strikethrough. That way we can all learn from your experience. I doubt you will be the first and only one who has this train of thought.

5 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

A bananna is also a fruit, Shocking as that   may  be.

Internet 2018.

another of those posts: "I was wrong, but I was right..."

Sry dude, no sympathy here.

those things are better when you just chill and reply: Yeah, I was wrong.
and leave that there for some time.