Of course he was......fools!

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

But it was Dooku, not Sifo-Dyas that selected and enlisted Jango Fett to be the prime clone, and this occurred post-BoN. This must have been done very soon after the BoN if the clones were to be combat-ready in 10 years.

So what? Maybe Palpatine was playing the same role with Dooku for years earlier, just as he did with Anakin...a kindly old gent, sympathetic to the complaints about the corrupt Republic, Senate, and by extension, the Jedi. You can lead people down a path just by listening to them and letting them arrive at their "own" conclusions. You don't even have to overtly agree with them, just say things like "that's an interesting point" or "I hadn't thought of it that way". I'm sure there was very little cackling and goading in Sidious' early days...

16 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I just saw the episode where the senate was voting on whether to purchase a new batch of clones. This purchase was approved. Since it takes 10 years for them to mature and be combat-ready, what was the senate thinking? Did they expect the war to last for over a decade? Did they not realize that they would need another source of reinforcements well before that time period? I know Legends has the second form of cloning that produced inferior clone troopers at much accelerated rates, but I'm still not sure how this was supposed to be managed.

Also, if Dooku left the Jedi shortly after the Battle of Naboo, he would have had to jump on board with the Sith plan almost immediately if he was the guy that subverted Sifo-Dyas and selected Jango Fett. The timing seems way too tight to make any sense.

Dooku jumped onboard the Sith plan BEFORE he left the Jedi. He erased Kamino and a handful of other systems from the Jedi archives. At least, that's the implication as far as I know.

2 minutes ago, whafrog said:

So what? Maybe Palpatine was playing the same role with Dooku for years earlier, just as he did with Anakin...a kindly old gent, sympathetic to the complaints about the corrupt Republic, Senate, and by extension, the Jedi. You can lead people down a path just by listening to them and letting them arrive at their "own" conclusions. You don't even have to overtly agree with them, just say things like "that's an interesting point" or "I hadn't thought of it that way". I'm sure there was very little cackling and goading in Sidious' early days...

Overlapping this with the Darth Plagueis novel, that would suggest that Palpatine actually had two Sith apprentices in the works even while his master was still alive, as Plagueis expires on the eve of Palpatine being named Supreme Chancellor. I guess that Plagueis viewed Maul much as Palpatine must have viewed Ventriss.

Of course, the same Legends material also puts Plagueis as the architect of the Clone Army through the subversion of Sifo-Dyas...

Palpatine has always been portrayed as an extremely cunning and scheming individual. He certainly didn't seem to have much respect for the Rule of Two either.

Its also somewhat implied that he unlocked the secret of immortality via his tale of the tragedy of Darth Plagueis.

Now the Rule of Two inherently assumes that the Master will eventually be replaced by the Apprentice. Because eventually the Master will grow weak and the Apprentice will kill him and take his place. But an Immortal Master would never grow weak due to old age. Meaning that this Master would out live all of his apprentices in perpetuity. So it would make sense for this Sith Lord to have a supply of replacement apprentices. Plus this Sith Lord might begin thinking about dispensing with the Rule of Two altogether. The existence of Inquisitors and other Force Sensitives in his service seems to show that Palpatine didn't particularly care about adhering to the rule. Sure, he would pay it lip service and not acknowledge that any of these individuals were Sith, but in practical terms they were.

Palpatine also, by having multiple apprentices, would create some rivalry between them. One apprentice might have time to scheme about overthrowing Palpatine, but if there were several at a time they'll be more distracted competing with each other. I'm sure all of the Inquisitors dreamed of replacing Vader and eliminating each other as rivals, but because there were a lot of them they couldn't ever get to that point. He'd just created a mostly reliable force of evil space wizards to serve him.

I wonder whom one would report a violation of the 'rule of 2' with? and the appeal process should one be unsatisfied with the ruling of the rule?............

After looking over some Legends material, it seems that Dooku was considered by D. Plagueis as an alternative should Palpatine die. Before that, D. Tenebrous (the master of D. Plagueis) had an alternate too. That whole Rule of Two thing was definitely more of a guideline--like the Pirate Code.

On 8/23/2018 at 3:36 AM, Stan Fresh said:

The Republic government is shown time and again to be corrupt and horribly ineffective, though. Between that, the lack of a military culture, and the war being "out there" for most Republic citizens I can see conscription not getting any traction with politicians and the public.

Except it's pretty obvious that conflict is a constant thing in the Star Wars galaxy, on some level or other. Maybe not full scale war, but there are space pirates to deal with, so the various trade lanes would have to be policed. And there were likely plenty of smaller scale conflicts, between individual members that escalated to violence, like the events around Naboo and the Trade Federation.

And they already have a ton of vehicles and starships for a full scale military, which would take just as long to make as it would to grow a clone, so it appears the infrastructure is there for a Republican Army to some degree. Perhaps not to the scale we see in the Clone Wars, but I find it very unlikely that nobody in all the Republic, was part of a conscripted military, to simply police and maintain order. Ramping it up to the level needed to deal with the Separatists is another issue, and likely where the cloning part came into issue.

Working for Veteran's Affairs, and seeing actual veterans every day, I just find it completely unrealistic to assume that none of the what..thousands(?) of different species that are members of the Republic, totaling up probably trillions (or more) of individual beings, that nobody thought "Hey, we should probably have a standing military to come in when things get a little hairy." And that even if only half of 1% of the population had the inclination for a combat type of life (which clearly they do, as there are plenty of people who engage in violent occupations to some degree or other), that nobody would decide to volunteer to be in the military.

But, all that being said, it's Star Wars, and it tends to ignore what is realistic all the time. From laws of physics and aerodynamics, to infrastructure, so I don't really worry about it too much. As the writers for the show are just that, writers on a show. And not necessarily versed in other aspects of life that they maybe don't have any actually familiarity with.

54 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Except it's pretty obvious that conflict is a constant thing in the Star Wars galaxy, on some level or other. Maybe not full scale war, but there are space pirates to deal with, so the various trade lanes would have to be policed. And there were likely plenty of smaller scale conflicts, between individual members that escalated to violence, like the events around Naboo and the Trade Federation.

And they already have a ton of vehicles and starships for a full scale military, which would take just as long to make as it would to grow a clone, so it appears the infrastructure is there for a Republican Army to some degree. Perhaps not to the scale we see in the Clone Wars, but I find it very unlikely that nobody in all the Republic, was part of a conscripted military, to simply police and maintain order. Ramping it up to the level needed to deal with the Separatists is another issue, and likely where the cloning part came into issue.

Working for Veteran's Affairs, and seeing actual veterans every day, I just find it completely unrealistic to assume that none of the what..thousands(?) of different species that are members of the Republic, totaling up probably trillions (or more) of individual beings, that nobody thought "Hey, we should probably have a standing military to come in when things get a little hairy." And that even if only half of 1% of the population had the inclination for a combat type of life (which clearly they do, as there are plenty of people who engage in violent occupations to some degree or other), that nobody would decide to volunteer to be in the military.

This is both a reason to, and an excuse not to, which could be easily flavored to Star Wars.

Just some thoughts:

- Reducing the size of a military not only reduces direct-cost spending (Soldiers pay, gear, logistics) but also back-end costs like VA benefits.Some planets, especially "safe" ones, would see little need for a standing Army when the alternative could be government provided Plumbuses for all citizens (or ya know... just outright embezzlement and misappropriation... that's good too).

- The corruption, limitations, and restrictions of the Republic might play a role. In a galaxy with constant minor conflicts AND "1,000 years of peace" I could see the Republic passing laws limiting members military numbers. This would double as a reason for other planets to form a Confederacy instead of some other more unified government. Maybe the reason Dinglezorp IV wanted to side with the Separatists is the Republic wouldn't let them have a standing Army of 10 billion beings and 20 billion wardroids. Their holy text says they totally should.

- "Military" is a more flexible term when you can crack out 1,000 wardroids an hour. Some planets would easily consider a fleet of mothballed cruisers and a few dozen factories with stockpiled raw materials to be sufficient. Flip a switch and in 3 days you've got an army of 100,000 troops and the cruisers to move them owul dbe back online in a week.

- Merc outfits seem oddly common in this galaxy, along with other bounty hunters, guns for hire, and just general purpose dudes with guns. Some places might see just a cash reservoir to be more useful, with the plan to just contract out when war comes. (not saying its a good idea, but it is one). After all, how big could a war even get these days, between the republic and the Jedi keeping a lid on it all?

Happy made mention of a pre-war campaign, and these elements would all make good adventure notes, as there was probably a few years of back and forthing. You could cover a lot of options from various sides building up, to flashpoints, and little "bush wars" "border skirmishes" and "Police Actions" (Ya know, like Naboo) that the players could get involved in, but not be lashed to since they'd pop up and die within a few months to a year or so.

Sure, there probably were quasi-military forces, militias, planetary militaries, and worlds with conscription. But overall the Republic doesn't seem to have that culture.

And we know that the army with which the Republic fights the Clone Wars is newly-created, not preexisting. I don't just mean the clones but the legal framework. Palpatine announces the creation of a Grand Army of the Republic in Attack of the Clones. This only makes sense if there didn't exist a significant military force before that.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

But overall the Republic doesn't seem to have that culture.

The Republic itself doesn't have an overall culture beyond the confines of the Senate chambers.

9 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

The Republic itself doesn't have an overall culture beyond the confines of the Senate chambers.

Why wouldn't it? It's culture is the sum of all the members' culture, and what they share. Laws, language, infrastructure, money, institutions, attitudes, history...

Of course it has a culture. Like America has a culture, but New York and Alabama also have their cultures. That's a fairly unified analogy. A less unified analogy might be the EU, stitched together for economic purposes but also having a shared history and way of looking at the world compared with the rest of the planet.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Why wouldn't it? It's culture is the sum of all the members' culture, and what they share. Laws, language, infrastructure, money, institutions, attitudes, history...

Does Earth have a distinct culture of it's own? Now diversify that a million-fold.

Most multi-national/cultural unions are formed for one or two reasons, principally defense and/or commerce. Since there's no major existential threat to the Republic I would assume the point is money and that's the culture. That's why things like the Banking Clan and Trade Federation have direct representation in the Senate.

2 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Most multi-national/cultural unions are formed for one or two reasons, principally defense and/or commerce. Since there's no major existential threat to the Republic I would assume the point is money and that's the culture. That's why things like the Banking Clan and Trade Federation have direct representation in the Senate.

Which opens up a whole slew of Shadowrunesque options.

Could you imagine if Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs, Amazon, Microsoft, Walmart, Apple, and Comcast actually had a seat in the Senate?

30 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Could you imagine if Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs, Amazon, Microsoft, Walmart, Apple, and Comcast actually had a seat in the Senate?

You mean they don't? Isn't that what superPACs are for?

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

You mean they don't? Isn't that what superPACs are for?

There's a difference between lobbying and outright participation.

While lobbyists and donors can technically introduce legislation and get votes via their targeted official, they aren't active participants. The elected officials still have to stay elected and wrangle with others who are also trying to stay elected. So at least there's a breaking point, an elected official isn't al likely to stick to corporate interests if it also means losing an election.

Something like the Banking Clan, or Trade Federation on the other hand never have to worry about losing their seat (well, assuming they aren't elected, which they might be, but I doubt. Or if they are it's not what we consider an election) they are given a lot of power in the government. In that case a company can just plain outright introduce legislation and be a negotiating force on all legislation.

"Oh? You want us to limited Galaitium mining to planets with no indigenous life? OK sure, we'll let that happen.... but we're adding that there will be a freeze on minimum wage for vacuum and hostile environment qualified employees for 10 years, and if you don't agree, don't expect the company to support your Education Reform Bill with the critical vote you need."

In a pre-war shadowrun styled campaign like Happy proposed, this would be a talking point for the failure of the Republic. Allowing business to directly participate, trusting defense and peacekeeping to the Jedi and later a disconnected Clone Army, applying galactic decisions to specific worlds, in addition to the corruption and bureaucracy. It's no wonder a bunch of planets decided they'd rather be an alliance of independent systems than let a centralized government on Coruscant make all the rules...

30 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

It's no wonder a bunch of planets decided they'd rather be an alliance of independent systems than let a centralized government on Coruscant make all the rules...

Yeah, the Separatist cause is easy to sympathize with. OTOH, the Separatist leaders are four-color comic villains. I really wish we had been shown "heroes on both sides" rather than just being told it was so in an opening crawl.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

Yeah, the Separatist cause is easy to sympathize with. OTOH, the Separatist leaders are four-color comic villains. I really wish we had been shown "heroes on both sides" rather than just being told it was so in an opening crawl.

It's really that the Separatist leaders are total psychopaths that makes the Separatists the villains. Like the Empire later, most people in it either are just doing a job and/or genuinely believe in the ideals behind the Separatist cause and thus aren't evil at all, but the people on top just give the whole faction a bad name. Had the Separatists fought purely defensively and only gained worlds through conversion (even if they were manipulating things in a less than savory fashion behind the scenes) instead of through cohesion and conquest there really wouldn't really been anything the Republic could do about the Confederacy. However, for the sake of his plan Sidious deliberately pushed forward the psychos into power when the Separatists were forming precisely so the galaxy would have a clear evil to fight against despite the actual reasons behind the Confederacy of Independent Systems having plenty of merit, as is proved later on by how the Republic was transformed into the Empire. Then Sidious apparently forgot this and did the exact same thing by putting psychopaths in charge of HIS Empire, cultivating resentment for his New Order.

6 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Does Earth have a distinct culture of it's own? Now diversify that a million-fold.

Sure. Compare a snapshot of the present with Earth a hundred or a thousand years ago and you can see vast difference across the globe that point in common directions. Diversity doesn't mean commonalities don't exist.

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

Sure. Compare a snapshot of the present with Earth a hundred or a thousand years ago and you can see vast difference across the globe that point in common directions.

I don't think your example makes the case. "Earth" can not be described as having a uniform culture. The Republic, as a whole, does not have a uniform culture.

9 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I don't think your example makes the case.

You haven't given any argument what that is the case, though. You can't given any arguments at all. You just stated you think something isn't the case, that's all. You've given no support whatsoever for your position.

9 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

"Earth" can not be described as having a uniform culture. The Republic, as a whole, does not have a uniform culture.

I didn't say that either one has a uniform culture. That's a strawman.

But what they both have are certain cultural commonalities, like laws, entertainment, languages, law enforcement institutions, etc - that's indisputable. People don't have to be the same across the board to share cultural traits.

17 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

But what they both have are certain cultural commonalities, like laws, entertainment, languages, law enforcement institutions, etc - that's indisputable. People don't have to be the same across the board to share cultural traits.

What is the common law of Earth? The common law enforcement agency of Earth? The common language of Earth? The common entertainment of Earth? I don't see answers that will really apply to Earth as whole.

47 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

What is the common law of Earth? The common law enforcement agency of Earth? The common language of Earth? The common entertainment of Earth? I don't see answers that will really apply to Earth as whole.

You're doing it again. Something doesn't have to apply everywhere and to everyone to be a widely shared cultural trait.

That there are Freeman of the Land in the United States doesn't mean that laws don't apply to people. That there are people who've never seen Star Wars doesn't make Vader not a part of pop culture across the world.

International treaties. United Nations declaration of human rights. Continent-wide law enforcement cooperatives like Interpol. The expectation that the rule of law applies in the first place, not just might makes right. Hollywood movies that make huge bank on all continents. Pop songs that are sung in hundreds of countries.

It's even more the case with the Republic. The have common language, common law enforcement across the galaxy.