I’ve been thinking about this for the last couple of weeks, and talked about this last night during gaming. What are your thoughts on the following:

Holding +1

Action: Sacrifice this holding - gain 1 Honor.

On the one hand, it’s a simple holding that might see you gain up to 3 Honor throughout the game. On the other, it might .... I don’t know. ?

???

Feels like a worse Imperial Storehouse. Would probably want something else to make it a bit more interesting as well.

Its by no means overpowered, but honestly its also not that impressive so would likely struggle to find space in a deck. Maybe give it an effect like way of the Chrysanthemum sacrifice it double an honor gain.

It does feel pretty underpowered even with the presence of Rebuild to reoccur it potentially. It would be one more honor pump toward an non-interactive honor rocket type deck though. I guess those sorts of effects are very rare right now though so it's not that big a deal, but I'd worry if they start adding too many of them to the game.

As is, it's really underwhelming tbh. I want to see honor decks become a thing, I don't even mind slightly noninteractive abilities, but this just doesn't do much. Rebuild not being on the restricted list is the only reason I wouldn't want to see this give a minimum 2 honor. Ideally though it would have a more interactive ability that can be reused. I feel like Bonsai Garden is a decent example of that.

Maybe you could try a reusable Contingency Plans instead? You can use it in any clan to gain a point of honor (at the cost of your card draw), but it can have other uses as well. Flexibility on holdings is always appreciated.

Not sure if this would be 100% legal or not.... but what about a holding that can be sacrificed to double a honor gain or loss? Where it hits the legality question would be using it to hit a major honor loss on your opponent, but it would be great with Scorpion to hit the threshold of their honor tricks and Lion for their high honor cards.

A holding that says "whenever you gain honor from a non-bid source, gain one extra honor" or something along those lines would be nice, and would make all the crane honor tech viable for honor play

The suggested holding is both terrible and ridiculously powerful. Right now there's no deck that would bother playing it, as 1 honour doesn't do much. But as soon as there's a genuinely competitive honour deck it would be an action speed non-interactive method of gaining 1 honour with no real cost, which is ridiculous.

Would anyone be happy if Scorpion got a Holding that said "Action: Sacrifice this holding - your opponent loses 1 Honor. "? Because that's what it would be the equivalent of for the type of deck it would see play in.

That is exactly what I'm worried about. Right now it's not that great, but in a future card pool where honor win is much more viable this card would enable a real unsatisfying end. I'd rather honor gains be tied to some sort of decision point or interaction with the opponent to still give the opponent way to combat the win condition. That's what dishonor is doing currently for the most part. I'd think they'd want to continue to structure honor winning in a similar direction.

1 hour ago, Evilgm said:

The suggested holding is both terrible and ridiculously powerful. Right now there's no deck that would bother playing it, as 1 honour doesn't do much. But as soon as there's a genuinely competitive honour deck it would be an action speed non-interactive method of gaining 1 honour with no real cost, which is ridiculous.

Would anyone be happy if Scorpion got a Holding that said "Action: Sacrifice this holding - your opponent loses 1 Honor. "? Because that's what it would be the equivalent of for the type of deck it would see play in.

You mean like the current Scorpion Stronghold which is a free air ring each turn if you are controlling honor totals. It doesn't actually have no cost as it is a dynasty slot filled by the card which means its taking space in your deck away from other options and on the turn it flips is costing you the option of seeing other personalities. A +3 honor over the course of the game if it comes up is a nice boost for an Honor Runner deck is we ever see it, but frankly with the way the dishonor mechanic is set up in the game and that everything is geared around the slow drag to zero I wouldn't call it over powered.

However if you are that concerned about it there are ways you can offset the perceived advantage. The easiest would be add a clause that dictates the phase it can be used in. So for example during the Dynasty or Fate phase, thereby it either costs you the chance to claim the pass first fate, or requires you to defend it till the end of the turn to claim the benefit.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

You mean like the current Scorpion Stronghold which is a free air ring each turn if you are controlling honor totals.

Not sure why you feel that's relevant to the current discussion, but if you want to moan about something everyone already knows is too good, you do you.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

It doesn't actually have no cost as it is a dynasty slot filled by the card which means its taking space in your deck away from other options and on the turn it flips is costing you the option of seeing other personalities.

Only if your intention is to buy four Provinces worth of characters a turn, which is unlikely. Seeing as most decks run 7-9 holdings people have accepted that you will want to run some holdings and so the only cost is the opportunity cost, and the payoff of "win the game" is a solid one that outweighs the value of most other holdings, assuming of course that honour decks become viable.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

However if you are that concerned about it there are ways you can offset the perceived advantage. The easiest would be add a clause that dictates the phase it can be used in. So for example during the Dynasty or Fate phase, thereby it either costs you the chance to claim the pass first fate, or requires you to defend it till the end of the turn to claim the benefit.

Of course there are things that can be done to change the card to reduce it's potential. I don't think anyone was unaware of that- we already have a weaker version of the proposed card in Bonsai Garden, which is a great example of a card that is not very could be easily will be if the deck it is designed for ever becomes competitive.

The current Scorpion stronghold is considered the strongest stronghold for a reason. That said even the Scorpion Stronghold has it's limitations since it dictates that the Scorpion must also be controlling their own honor, which forcing them to make good decisions about how they are spending their honor. If it was just a free air ring per turn it would go from top tier powerful to seriously broken.

4 minutes ago, Evilgm said:

Not sure why you feel that's relevant to the current discussion, but if you want to moan about something everyone already knows is too good, you do you.

Only if your intention is to buy four Provinces worth of characters a turn, which is unlikely. Seeing as most decks run 7-9 holdings people have accepted that you will want to run some holdings and so the only cost is the opportunity cost, and the payoff of "win the game" is a solid one that outweighs the value of most other holdings, assuming of course that honour decks become viable.

Its because this card is an option to offset the power of the dishonor switch decks that have been dominating the Kotei season and look poised to continue to do so for the near future. You said that in a viable honor deck a 3 honor action "non-interactive" boost would be potentially broken, which is why I countered with an example of what is for all intents and purposes an already existent version that design allowed but if you don't accept that than how about Imperial Storehouse which is the equivalent of the same as card draw is essentially worth 0.5 to 1 honor depending on the metric you believe.

And as to the opportunity cost and the idea that it is only a downside if you are buying all your characters a turn, it only matters if that is the card that is winning you the game that turn as otherwise you are passing up the opportunity that the card that may have come up in the province would have lead to your win.

So far the game is suffering because they are not supporting honor as an alternative to offset the dishonor pressure that the top clans can bring and the only viable counter is to race them to crack provinces before they dishonor you out. There needs to be viable ways to get over the honor hump once the game degenerates to the only bidding 1 stage (just like dishonor needed which is why the dishonor clans have cards like Watch Commander, Backhanded complement and the plethora of dishonor and kill tech that can put them over the edge with unopposed conflicts). Honor doesn't have anything remotely as reliable to get them over the top.

The nature of current L5R means that there will never be a true solitaire deck as the entire set up to the game is the interaction of attack and counter attack during the conflict phase.

1 hour ago, phillos said:

That is exactly what I'm worried about. Right now it's not that great, but in a future card pool where honor win is much more viable this card would enable a real unsatisfying end. I'd rather honor gains be tied to some sort of decision point or interaction with the opponent to still give the opponent way to combat the win condition. That's what dishonor is doing currently for the most part. I'd think they'd want to continue to structure honor winning in a similar direction.

Thing is I have been staunchly anti-Honor boosting in the past, and I continue to be, but in the few games that I’ve played online recently I would have been better positioned to maybe eventually win the match if I had a few extra points of honor. Thus, the thought of thus suggestion came up after a discussion with my gaming group.

12 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Its because this card is an option to offset the power of the dishonor switch decks that have been dominating the Kotei season and look poised to continue...

So far the game is suffering because they are not supporting honor as an alternative to offset the dishonor pressure that the top clans can bring and the only viable counter is to race them to crack provinces before they dishonor you out.

That’s it. (well written post?)

In my limited thinking about this topic (gaining Honor outside of Conflict cards), I can make a case for a Holding that mirrors the Imperial Storehouse but generates extra Honor instead of Fate. (which can only be had through the Dynasty deck, meaning it will compete for space among Dynasty characters and Holdings)

And with all of the Honor loss cards and characters out now, that Honor climb is getting more difficult each day. (which, again, forces players to go for Province breaks in order to win a match)

Instead of honour for nothing (or for a card space...) why not give it something that is a part of the game and also adds honour? Perhaps "Reaction: After you win a conflict with fewer participating characters - Gain 1 Honour." Or something. Maybe make it about breaking provinces. Or about bowing characters. Or about defending a province even though it is a foregone conclusion. "Interrupt - When a province you control would be broken during a conflict with one participating character that you control defending - Gain 1 Honour."