What I would like to see for new products isn't a World Champion Deck. I think it worked better for Netrunner, because there were 2 decks that could be played against each other.

For L5R, I'd rather see 7 Best of Clan decks (from the player from each clan that got the furthest at Worlds). They could function like intro decks, but they'd offer explicitly competent decks. No deck would contain cards not found in previous packs, so there would be no additional need to collect them all, but they could feature several (say 7 or so) alt-art cards per pack. If the cards chosen for alt-art weren't full playsets in the deck, I'd suggest adding playsets to the packs for completionists.

You could go further and add cards to make them role neutral (so they could be played at all tournaments), although I wouldn't think that would work particularly well as decks are built with those limitations & bonuses in mind.

As I said earlier, complete L5R decks would probably be $20USD. They could feature a write-up by their players or the card team detailing what strengths and limitations the deck has and how it best played.

I think that would bridge the gap between core set and full rotation. They would sell them for 12 months and then switch to the next year's decks.

Boy would it be annoying though if the role they used to win worlds was also the one they replaced that worlds, like if someone were to get top dragon out of SoF (the currently expected outcome), then that'd be the deck in the release, but it'd be illegal for tournament play within months (and given how long it takes to get a new product like that out, by the time it hits the shelves, it'll probably already be January, and thus and illegal build).

If they launch a Pack with some neutrals and some cards for the last 3-4 clans to receive a clan pack that should be great.

It would be a good way to increase deckbuilding and encourage clan loyalty.

53 minutes ago, psychie said:

Boy would it be annoying though if the role they used to win worlds was also the one they replaced that worlds, like if someone were to get top dragon out of SoF (the currently expected outcome), then that'd be the deck in the release, but it'd be illegal for tournament play within months (and given how long it takes to get a new product like that out, by the time it hits the shelves, it'll probably already be January, and thus and illegal build).

It's going to be June at least before any World Championship deck hits shelves. Netrunner was June 14th for this year's.

The role is the biggest limit they'll run into with clan decks as is. It's a base-line of 1:5 chance any role will be available. That said, it's only illegal to run a non-chosen role in major tournaments (unless your local TO sets her tournaments to be instep with roles), and you wouldn't take a purchased deck to a Kotei.

Is Dragon expected to win Worlds?

1 hour ago, Duciris said:

It's going to be June at least before any World Championship deck hits shelves. Netrunner was June 14th for this year's.

The role is the biggest limit they'll run into with clan decks as is. It's a base-line of 1:5 chance any role will be available. That said, it's only illegal to run a non-chosen role in major tournaments (unless your local TO sets her tournaments to be instep with roles), and you wouldn't take a purchased deck to a Kotei.

Is Dragon expected to win Worlds?

Every tournament in my area uses the set roles AFAIK. So most likely you would have a deck to had a good chance of not being legal to use.

EDIT

Actually you could just make them mono-clan with no role restricted cards.

Yeah, all of the locals in my area also require the OP roles.

As for what I meant by expected outcome, I was referring to SoF being expected to outperform KoV at the competitive level within the dragon clan. Sorry, I wasn't clear about that, I shifted my example from generic winner of worlds, to just top dragon mid sentence, shoulda caught that and fixed it before posting.

Granted, dragon is presently one of the top contenders, but I don't pay enough attention to chatter outside the dragon clan to know if we're expected to out perform, say, scorpion or not, or any other top clans.

I think the game needs something that is impossible to happen. I think it needs some kind of supplemental pack at a lower cost that buying 3 cores. Right now we have lots of interest, but the price is too much for players. Total cost for it all is over $300.

I know you don't need it all to make a deck, but you are at a disadvantage with only 2 cores and no dynasty packs.

I also think there needs to be some FFG structured story events for local play. Even a league with a special rule, like a neutral version of a champion with some special story all decks can include that card and play the league.

19 minutes ago, Tomello said:

I think the game needs something that is impossible to happen. I think it needs some kind of supplemental pack at a lower cost that buying 3 cores. Right now we have lots of interest, but the price is too much for players. Total cost for it all is over $300.

I know you don't need it all to make a deck, but you are at a disadvantage with only 2 cores and no dynasty packs.

I also think there needs to be some FFG structured story events for local play. Even a league with a special rule, like a neutral version of a champion with some special story all decks can include that card and play the league.

You have seen the Stronghold kits which are intended for local play correct. If not you should have your store follow up with their distributor as they are very helpful in building store presence.

As for story results I'm actually glad to see them going slowly at first with the results as it makes the story votes that we are seeing seem to have more impact. Plus with the current state of the game we are spared from everything being another Scorpion or Crab win as was the case for the more recent event series. i think the way they have been going offering alt arts of existing cards is the better route for local play as it gives players something to compete with, while not putting those players who can't participate or do poorly at a disadvantage in missing what may become key cards like the old AEG promo's tended to result in.

As to buy in, yes it can be pricey, but the same can be said if anyone wants to play competitively at any card game as most often you are looking at needing a booster box minimum of most new sets to build a base card pool to work from and then trading or buying for your sought after cards (and yes that price can be mitigated if you have a strong playgroup but the same applies here as long as you and a friend are happy to split off factions). And nothing says you need to buy it all up front. One core is enough to get a taste for whether you enjoy the game or not, and 2 cores after that can be spread out to mitigate the cost while a player is getting used to the game and learning what they do and don't like and what deck style they prefer. Cycles can also see the cost spread across a few weeks if the one. If you focus on what is needed for your main deck and then branch out to additional cards as needed from there it can be easier than you expect.

Yeah, our playgroup needed that many copies of Wandering Ronin. ? Those prizes and events with them are not really what I am talking about. Don't get me wrong they are abysmal for drawing new people in, and do nothing to really entice people that already play to show up for an event.

I am talking about a scenario of some kind. Not some massive story result, though local stores having NO impact is kind of weak. Because of that no one really cares about the story, we pay attention to new roles...but after that...nothing. As for the league card, whatever that may be just cycle it out, the game is living right? Having a neutral <insert character here> for a week or two is more interesting. Even a temporary unique role card for the season would be amazing. Just an experience that we can have locally. Even if we funnel those results to FFG and there is a fiction around those results. **** make versions of the story for each clan, so that we never know what "really" happened.

I think you underestimate the sticker shock, that has been the number one barrier we have to new players. No one is going to show up with a single core deck and have an enjoyable experience playing against someone with even 2 cores. And people who own it all are not going to enjoy nerfing their decks. Also buying what you think you need is also not going to work out well. You really need to play to understand what works.

I understand that you can split clans up in packs, but this is unlike the old game I think there is less clan loyalty overall. Scorpion and Crab get play because they are currently winning. If Unicorn gets a huge boost, then you will see WAY more people playing Unicorn. The appeal of an LCG is that you get it all, I think that appeal is a big draw.

1 hour ago, Tomello said:

Yeah, our playgroup needed that many copies of Wandering Ronin. ? Those prizes and events with them are not really what I am talking about. Don't get me wrong they are abysmal for drawing new people in, and do nothing to really entice people that already play to show up for an event.

I am talking about a scenario of some kind. Not some massive story result, though local stores having NO impact is kind of weak. Because of that no one really cares about the story, we pay attention to new roles...but after that...nothing. As for the league card, whatever that may be just cycle it out, the game is living right? Having a neutral <insert character here> for a week or two is more interesting. Even a temporary unique role card for the season would be amazing. Just an experience that we can have locally. Even if we funnel those results to FFG and there is a fiction around those results. **** make versions of the story for each clan, so that we never know what "really" happened.

I think you underestimate the sticker shock, that has been the number one barrier we have to new players. No one is going to show up with a single core deck and have an enjoyable experience playing against someone with even 2 cores. And people who own it all are not going to enjoy nerfing their decks. Also buying what you think you need is also not going to work out well. You really need to play to understand what works.

I understand that you can split clans up in packs, but this is unlike the old game I think there is less clan loyalty overall. Scorpion and Crab get play because they are currently winning. If Unicorn gets a huge boost, then you will see WAY more people playing Unicorn. The appeal of an LCG is that you get it all, I think that appeal is a big draw.

Sure Ronin was a bad card, but it wasn't a prize for the events its the bonus that the store is meant to be giving out to players with each purchase. And when in doubt players have the option of getting creative with them. Use them as a deck building challenge at an event. First player to break a province with a solo Ronin wins the extra full bleed province for each event. Back a deck with them if you want. But that wasn't the main appeal of the Stronghold kit its was the coins and the full bleed clan characters. And locally I know our players were all over the Finger of Jade and Miya Mystics as well as the other cards that were in the sets. The Acrylic Favors and the mats were also very hotly contested.

And again to the sticker shock argument there are ways to mitigate. While a player is building their collection yes maybe you do offer to play a single core deck to teach them the rules. Or you could lend them one of your decks while they are getting their collection together. Any game is going to have a price tag going in if you want to pay competitive and realistically the LCG model is actually far lower than most CCG models when you consider that you are getting full sets for your investment. Yes the $120 for three cores is high but try and get a core set playset of magic for that money. Its all a matter of perspective.

49 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

And again to the sticker shock argument  there are ways to mitigate. While a player is building their collection yes maybe you do offer to play a single core deck to teach them the rules. Or you could lend them one of your decks while they are getting their collection together. Any game is going to have a price tag going in if you want to pay comp  etitive and realistically the LCG model is actually far lower than most CCG models when you consider that you are getting full sets for your investment. Yes the $120 for three cores is high but try and get a core set playset of magic for that money. Its all a matter of perspective     .   

I love the framing, I am not making an argument.....I am pointed to a clear barrier to entry. Which is why I would like to see some kind of pack to plus up a single core at a lower cost. I know it is impossible, but it would help.

Perspective is not the issue, it is not MTG vs L5R. It is to play the game with people that have all the cards....you kind of need all* the cards. I am not trying to convince someone with $300 dollars burning a hole in their pocket.

*I don't mean all literally, as you cannot use them all. I mean access to them all.

What games have a lower entry point and an adequate competitive sceen for a lower price than L5R?

Without players you can't have a competitive scene. New players are detracted by the price, old player aren't really jazzed at the current tourney kits and the distro model impacted us a little.

It is not rings vs. another game (though keyforge is going to hit us as well). We do have people wanting to get in, but the price and the lack of a casual experience is a huge deterrent.

10 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

What games have a lower entry point and an adequate competitive sceen for a lower price than L5R?

KeyForge!

Sales is all about perspective. You can get started playing Magic with a starter deck that costs less than one L5R core set. And you will have an actually legal deck. And you can probably manage an average result at FNM with it. And then you buy some boosters and soon you will have spent more money than you realize.

But L5R pretty much requires 2 cores minimum to even have a legal deck and you will probably be destroyed by any other deck.

I'd argue that 120$ will suffice for 12 weeks of magic draft which in the end of said time will result in a pretty decent deck for a beginner. That means that for the price of 3 cores you get 12 tournaments, trading with people who shower you with spare cards and quite a good deck which i consider a good deal for a beginner.

Not to mention that with 4 challenger decks you get 5-6 months worth of HIGHLY competitive decks to play at FNM for 80$ or 13$/month.

In that perspective, 3 cores as an intro product do not fare so good i fear...

13 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Sales is all about perspective. You can get started playing Magic with a starter deck that costs less than one L5R core set. And you will have an actually legal deck. And you can probably manage an average result at FNM with it. And then you buy some boosters and soon you will have spent more money than you realize.

But L5R pretty much requires 2 cores minimum to even have a legal deck and you will probably be destroyed by any other deck.

1 core is the see if I like the game, 2 cores is I can build a casual play around deck to learn and figure out which direction I want to go in. There is nothing that says you need to start with a hyper competitive I have everything build right off the hop. Plus as I said there is always the option of borrowing decks if needed while you get the hang of the game. I know personally i always travel with at least 2 decks. I've also gone to the trouble of assembling the Lion and Crane single core suggested deck lists that I keep as demo materials to show new players the basics of the game if they don't have anything else but a single core.

8 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

1 core is the see if I like the game, 2 cores is I can build a casual play around deck to learn and figure out which direction I want to go in. There is nothing that says you need to start with a hyper competitive I have everything build right off the hop.

There is. That's where the community is. MTG really has perfected the process of engaging new players, making it as easy as possible to get to a point where you can play, providing a definite place to play (FNM is a brilliant bit of branding), and then capturing those new players to stick with the game.

Pretty much every other CCG or LCG I've seen is amateur hour compared to it.

Although if you look at the strategy for LCGs being more about converting MTG veterans it's a different picture.

42 minutes ago, Dovla said:

I'd argue that 120$ will suffice for 12 weeks of magic draft which in the end of said time will result in a pretty decent deck for a beginner. That means that for the price of 3 cores you get 12 tournaments, trading with people who shower you with spare cards and quite a good deck which i consider a good deal for a beginner.

Not to mention that with 4 challenger decks you get 5-6 months worth of HIGHLY competitive decks to play at FNM for 80$ or 13$/month.

In that perspective, 3 cores as an intro product do not fare so good i fear...

Agreed. Even with 3 cores, you are not competitive. This is what I think people don't understand. Spend $40 on a game and not actually be able to play, you can't make a legal deck, let alone 2. Single core decks are painful play experiences, for everyone. At $80 you get two cores and can finally make a legal deck....you will be consistently stomped, also not fun for anyone.

Without strong story support at a local level and cheaper ways to get into the game, it is tough to find new players and keep existing ones interested.

28 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

There is. That's where the community is. MTG really has perfected the process of engaging new players, making it as easy as possible to get to a point where you can play, providing a definite place to play (FNM is a brilliant bit of branding), and then capturing those new players to stick with the game.

Pretty much every other CCG or LCG I've seen is amateur hour compared to it.

Although if you look at the strategy for LCGs being more about converting MTG veterans it's a different picture.

The difference is market presence. Magic can get away with what they do because they are the shark in the tank, biggest and able, to an extent, to dictate how the market reacts to them. If you look at the number of CCG's that have come and gone since Magic debuted, the only ones that appear to have survived and had any lasting success all have one thing in common and that's a recognizable brand behind them. That lends them a collectability that drives players to want sets and seek out chase cards for favorite characters and monsters as the case may be.

AEG made a go of it with L5R and it did last far longer than most would have expected but shrinking player base was always an issue for the game. The LCG model has to function differently as you don't get the impulse buy that drives CCG purchases and yes it is geared towards the burned out and jaded Magic/CCG player who is tired of chasing the power rares and having to rebuild and hunt new cards for the new meta every few months.

The FNM casual environment exists, but in reality that is the same as the slow build core meta that I was describing above where you start with 1 or 2 cores build from there. There is no question that it's more expensive than 1 Magic starter, but unless everyone is also playing with just one of those starters than it takes a lot of luck to actually succeed at any sort of competitive level (even just casual weekly events) with that deck.

As for the Challenge decks, sure they are a great starting point, but they are limiting you to one pre-constructed deck with one play style. They may be competitive in that they feature a good number of rares (although it raises the question of is a card really "rare" when its a fixed card in a base product) but you now have a fully scouted deck that you are playing with as soon as you sit down, so a competent player knows exactly what to expect and how to react. Plus they are block specific so rotation is a concern there, where as the cores are intended to be an evergreen product. And lets remember they have a suggested retail of $29.99 so buying all four would cost you $119.96 or the same as three cores. That leaves you the option of 4 basic decks or 7 basic decks for the same price point. Sure in a big enough environment Magic may end up showering you with commons that the other players don't care about but that only gets you so far as the commons aren't normally the power cards that win games.

There is no question that start up cost can be daunting for the LCG model, but the same can be said for any game and based on the LCG model the clan booster (which by the way is what the clan packs are really meant to be).

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/9/5/a-sign-of-status/

For, y'know, Magic decks....

Quote

The Province Unlimited Art Sleeves feature the same art found on the back of province cards in Legend of the Five Rings: The Card Game and allow you to keep these cards easily separated while also protecting them from errant liquid spills or scuffed edges!

Each pack of sleeves features 50 -cards, giving you the opportunity to sleeve your provinces with plenty of sleeves to spare.

I'm glad they acknowledge that.

Won't stop me from sleeving my Conflict Deck in them.... hehehehe....

24 minutes ago, Coyote Walks said:

I'm glad they acknowledge that.

Won't stop me from sleeving my Conflict Deck in them.... hehehehe....

Now that's just evil. Although not as bad as my plan to sleeve my Dynasty with Conflict sleeves and my Provinces with Dynasty sleeves as well.

26 minutes ago, Coyote Walks said:

I'm glad they acknowledge that.

Won't stop me from sleeving my Conflict Deck in them.... hehehehe....

Whayhey, I have 45 spare province sleeves!

26 minutes ago, Coyote Walks said:

I'm glad they acknowledge that.

Won't stop me from sleeving my Conflict Deck in them.... hehehehe....

Whayhey, I have 45 spare province sleeves!