38 minutes ago, DScipio said:

The number  3,000,000 was Sifo-Dyas' initial order, the number of total clones increased during the war.

Not all numbers are to look cool, some even derived from mechanics, like the DPF numbers for Fighters. You will never get a better feeling for these ships as by flying them in the Simulator-Games and the numbers reflect their possibilites there.

No the initial number was 1.2 million as stated in Episode 2. The 3 million total were made up by Karen Traviss.

I have nothing against numbers from PC simulations where this numbers are actually applied but many other numbers were just completely made up without any reasoning bebind it.

And regarding why heavy makes a fighter useless: Well because its not a fighter then anymore. It cant engage enemy squadrons on its own, its useless as a fighter screen if you dont use other squadrons. The ARC 170 is being described as a starfighter for fighter vs. fighter combat in all sources and thats why i dont like the idea: Messing with a ships characteristics for balancing reasons when there are other, much more elegant solutions (like cost) available.

59 minutes ago, DScipio said:

I agree with Escort for the Z-95 and perhaps the V-19. The Eta 2 was not only used by Jedis, but I guess as a very expensive elite fighter, hardly anyone except Jedis ever got to use them in a wider scale.

Black anti-ship die for the V-Wings could fit as A-Wings also have it. Strangly enough TIE-Defenders dont.

How do you treat the Y-Wing? +1Hull? Removing Heavy?

I still dont understand why the gave the Z-95 three red AntiSquadron and a red AntiShip. Perhaps the Clone wars Z-95 just switches Swarm for Escort and gets the classic three blue dice Anti-Squadron, 1 black AntiShip?

The A-Wing has a black antiship dice because it has concussion missiles. The V-Wing doesnt have them, thats why he will get only a blue antiship dice. But will probably get counter 2, as he has just like the A-Wings cannons that can swivle. Hull 4 because he has shields and speed 4, because the Eta 2 is a little faster than the V-Wing.

The reason Eta 2s were almost only flown by jedi is because its just too dangerous for other pilots. No shields, no heavy sensor equipment, extremely sensitive controls, etc. It was build for jedi.

The V-19 will get a black antiship dice though, because it has missiles. But lacks shields, so probably 3 hull.

The Y-Wing will basically just like @DiabloAzul designed it. +1 cost and gets counter 1, because the Clone Wars version had a gunner for th e Turret.

I really want the ARC to feel like the elite and experimental fighter that it was. Dont worry, the other squadrons won't all be as powerful, because you asked about the Y-Wing. My goal is always to stay true to the source material AND make it balanced. But i dont like creating something that (IMO) goes against the lore of a ship. I rather try to find a way to make it balanced even if it is more complicated to do so.

30 minutes ago, >kkj said:

No the initial number was 1.2 million as stated in Episode 2. The 3 million total were made up by Karen Traviss.

I have nothing against numbers from PC simulations where this numbers are actually applied but many other numbers were just completely made up without any reasoning bebind it.

And regarding why heavy makes a fighter useless: Well because its not a fighter then anymore. It cant engage enemy squadrons on its own, its useless as a fighter screen if you dont use other squadrons. The ARC 170 is being described as a starfighter for fighter vs. fighter combat in all sources and thats why i dont like the idea: Messing with a ships characteristics for balancing reasons when there are other, much more elegant solutions (like cost) available.

Wookiepedia states that the The Essential Guide to Warfare states 3 million as the initial order.

Heavy doesnt take the fighter status from a craft, it removes its ability to "Intercept". It can still fight other fighters and the ARC with heavy very much so, but it can block or pin them making it a bad interceptor (which the ARC clearly not is). And I dont think cost is the more elegenat solution, because Heavy is so much more fitting (making that the much more elegant solution compared to just point value).

8 minutes ago, DScipio said:

Wookiepedia states that the The Essential Guide to Warfare states 3 million as the initial order.

Heavy doesnt take the fighter status from a craft, it removes its ability to "Intercept". It can still fight other fighters and the ARC with heavy very much so, but it can block or pin them making it a bad interceptor (which the ARC clearly not is). And I dont think cost is the more elegenat solution, because Heavy is so much more fitting (making that the much more elegant solution compared to just point value).

Didn't know they retconned that number in the guide. In the Republic Commando books it was always hilarious when they spoke of quadrillions of droids against the 1.2/3 Million clones. My point is some numbers are made up without much thinking behind it. A war on a galactic scale would have much larger amounts of troops involved. Germany alone had 18 million soldiers in WW2.

I get your point about interception and i kinda agree, but then again the B-Wing and YT-1300 dont have Heavy either so there is that. I dont really understand why you feel that the ARC HAS to be heavy? Is it because its "better" than the X-Wing? They are not even in the same faction and the X-Wing is cheaper and can escort, something thats much more viable than counter in my opinion.

Why not give the ARC rogue as well? After all, it was designed for deep space recon.

And if you give another squad escort and it has less hull than the ARC, that's anti-synergy. Why take a 3/4 hull escort to protect my 6 hull counter 1 squad? Giving the ARC escort would make it feel like the core of a Republic fleet and synergize well with the other squads.

5 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Why not give the ARC rogue as well? After all, it was designed for deep space recon.

And if you give another squad escort and it has less hull than the ARC, that's anti-synergy. Why take a 3/4 hull escort to protect my 6 hull counter 1 squad? Giving the ARC escort would make it feel like the core of a Republic fleet and synergize well with the other squads.

True, but then we are entering very expensive territory. With Rogue, Bomber, Escort, Counter 1, i dunno... i dont fell it needs Rogue as it was also employed in squadrons and for standard fighter duties. Squad 7 will definately gain Escort but i think the ARC just doesnt fit for it. And cheap escorts actually work better in my opinion, i mean look at Black Squadron, its great. You can adjust the number of escort hull points you want to invest more precisely with cheaper squadrons

Also i dont think the ARC wants or needs escort. Those Y-Wings will and i think Z-95s with Escort will work great for that

16 hours ago, >kkj said:

I get your point about interception and i kinda agree, but then again the B-Wing and YT-1300 dont have Heavy either so there is that. I dont really understand why you feel that the ARC HAS to be heavy? Is it because its "better" than the X-Wing? They are not even in the same faction and the X-Wing is cheaper and can escort, something thats much more viable than counter in my opinion.

First: It does feel strange that the B-Wings and the YT-1300, but they both also have only speed 2 wich is a major (to be exact: MAJOR) hindreance for them, Heavy + speed 2 is much worse than heavy + speed 3.

I am for heavy for the Arc not because the fluff would dictate that (see: not heavy: B-Wings, YT-1300, heavy: TIE-Bomber which is more agile than a X-Wing), but because it would round up your concept very well and in relation to the other squadrons in the game.

16 hours ago, >kkj said:

The A-Wing has a black antiship dice because it has concussion missiles. The V-Wing doesnt have them, thats why he will get only a blue antiship dice. But will probably get counter 2, as he has just like the A-Wings cannons that can swivle. Hull 4 because he has shields and speed 4, because the Eta 2 is a little faster than the V-Wing.

The reason Eta 2s were almost only flown by jedi is because its just too dangerous for other pilots. No shields, no heavy sensor equipment, extremely sensitive controls, etc. It was build for jedi.

The V-19 will get a black antiship dice though, because it has missiles. But lacks shields, so probably 3 hull.

The Y-Wing will basically just like @DiabloAzul designed it. +1 cost and gets counter 1, because the Clone Wars version had a gunner for th e Turret.

I missunderstood that you wanted to give the V-Wing a black die and not the V-19, my fault. This way everything fits much better.

The Eta-2 was not build for Jedi like the Delta 7. It was also produced in numbers far beyond the needs of the Jedis, it was however most prominent with the Jedi use (wich often modifed the model a lot).

Your stats all sound very fitting. Altough I am not sure if I would like the Y-Wing to get +1 hull or not (as the clone wars units still had their extensive armour on).

17 hours ago, >kkj said:

Didn't know they retconned that number in the   guide. In the Republic Commando books it wa  s always hilarious when they spoke of quadrillions of droids against the 1.2/3 Milli  on clo  ne  s  .

Not to say 3 million isn’t an inadequate number... But Republic Commando indicated the rumors of “quadrillions” of droids were propaganda or exagerations, and estimated droid numbers around 200 million (also a pretty small number.) Just to nitpick. More importantly, we don’t see many massive engagements in clone wars canon, just skirmishes (Geonosis and Coruscant are the exception, for obvious reasons.) Just one battalion of 576 troopers was supposedly the standard for an Utapau-sized star system. It seems reasonable to conclude that 1. Most of the inhabited galaxy wasn’t directly affected, and 2. The war centered around small military units fighting over scattered strategic locations, making overall troop numbers only relevant based on the number of active battlefronts. The whole conflict was staged anyway, so fewer forces would simply mean fighting in fewer places.

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Not to say 3 million isn’t an inadequate number... But Republic Commando indicated the rumors of “quadrillions” of droids were propaganda or exagerations, and estimated droid numbers around 200 million (also a pretty small number.) Just to nitpick. More importantly, we don’t see many massive engagements in clone wars canon, just skirmishes (Geonosis and Coruscant are the exception, for obvious reasons.) Just one battalion of 576 troopers was supposedly the standard for an Utapau-sized star system. It seems reasonable to conclude that 1. Most of the inhabited galaxy wasn’t directly affected, and 2. The war centered around small military units fighting over scattered strategic locations, making overall troop numbers only relevant based on the number of active battlefronts. The whole conflict was staged anyway, so fewer forces would simply mean fighting in fewer places.

Thats Canon though, i'm talking about Legends and there the conflict was much bigger, aka more massive battles than in the budget-restricted TCW show. (I mean in one episode they launch like 4 ARCs per Venator, like really? Was the Republic THAT undersupplied...?)

3 hours ago, DScipio said:

First: It does feel strange that the B-Wings and the YT-1300, but they both also have only speed 2 wich is a major (to be exact: MAJOR) hindreance for them, Heavy + speed 2 is much worse than heavy + speed 3.

I am for heavy for the Arc not because the fluff would dictate that (see: not heavy: B-Wings, YT-1300, heavy: TIE-Bomber which is more agile than a X-Wing), but because it would round up your concept very well and in relation to the other squadrons in the game.

See and thats why i dont like giving the ARC heavy. Its just not what i would think the ARC would be and what all the lore suggests. I totally get your balancing reasons behind it but i think i will have to politely disagree with you on this matter. You have to consider that this squadron is in a completely different faction and first of all has to be balanced for and fulfill a meaningful role in THAT FACTION. I would like to suggest that you reserve final judgement on this matter until you have seen the complete fighter complement available to the republic that we are designing right now, maybe that will change your mind or at least make our designchoice understandable from the context of the faction. Im very glad though that you like my suggested ideas for the V-wing and V-19 Torrent so far! The Z-95 especially will be interesting and provide some cool syngery with the ARC 170 @DiabloAzul

3 hours ago, DScipio said:

Your stats all sound very fitting. Altough I am not sure if I would like the Y-Wing to get +1 hull or not (as the clone wars units still had their extensive armour on).

I'll be thinking about it but it since the Y-Wing will already have Counter 1 im not sure if i want it to have 7 hull....

19 minutes ago, >kkj said:

See and thats why i dont like giving the ARC heavy. Its just not what i would think the ARC would be and what all the lore suggests. I totally get your balancing reasons behind it but i think i will have to politely disagree with you on this matter. You have to consider that this squadron is in a completely different faction and first of all has to be balanced for and fulfill a meaningful role in THAT FACTION. I would like to suggest that you reserve final judgement on this matter until you have seen the complete fighter complement available to the republic that we are designing right now, maybe that will change your mind or at least make our designchoice understandable from the context of the faction. Im very glad though that you like my suggested ideas for the V-wing and V-19 Torrent so far! The Z-95 especially will be interesting and provide some cool syngery with the ARC 170 @DiabloAzul

I think you misunderstood that, the fluff doesnt dictate that, but it strongly implies it too.

Just to get it short: The ARC is mostly described as "slow and durable" that has its main role in long range recon and attacks on large targets.... not in dogfihgting.

Its might be a different faction, but the ARC was used by the Rebels and the Imperium, so the stats should fit into that factions too.

But as you said, I am keen to see your full rooster and despite how it may look appreciate your ideas a lot.

I think once we see the other GAR squads, we can better exam the ARC stats. There's a lot of different ways the ARC can go if we don't consider the other squads. Heavy, Escort, Rogue, more attack dice, lower speed, etc., are all valid options for the ARC and the lore can support it.

17 minutes ago, DScipio said:

Just to get it short: The ARC is mostly described as "slow and durable" that has its main role in long range recon and attacks on large targets.... not in dogfihgting.

You are totally right about that, thats straight from the Incredible Crosssections Compedium Book, which BTW is my main source for all my designs and which i have right here in front of me

I won't spoil too much, but you will see that the ARC really stands out amongst the other Republic Squadrons and that its NEEDED to not have heavy because i want the Republic to have a more expensive fighter option they can use for a 4-6 squads minimum fighter screen like the TIE Defender for the Imps or E-Wings for the Rebs. The other Republic craft will hardly be able to fulfill that task, both ability wise and cost wise, so thats one of the reasons why the ARC lacks heavy. But you will see it yourself when we have the full rooster available!

1 hour ago, >kkj said:

I won't spoil too much, but you will see that the ARC really stands out amongst the other Republic Squadrons and that its NEEDED to not have heavy because i want the Republic to have a more expensive fighter option they can use for a 4-6 squads minimum fighter screen like the TIE Defender for the Imps or E-Wings for the Rebs. The other Republic craft will hardly be able to fulfill that task, both ability wise and cost wise, so thats one of the reasons why the ARC lacks heavy. But you will see it yourself when we have the full rooster available!

I was hoping you would go down the path of making GAR squads expensive and deadly to juxtapose cheap CIS swarms.

29 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I was hoping you would go down the path of making GAR squads expensive and deadly to juxtapose cheap CIS swarms.

They are kinda, the Vulture Droid will be the cheapest squadron in the game, while V-19 and V-wing will be about on par with Tri-Droids.

The thing is, both sides used many disposable and easy to produce fighters. the Venator for example carried 192 V-Wings or V-19s!

Short question: Any idea for what generic CIS squadron could have escort? Vulture, Tri and Hyena are already out of discussion for it and the only remaining starfighters (apart from Ventress and Grievous fighter) that i came up with are the Nantex-class geonosian starfighter, the Mankvim 814 light interceptor and the P-38/Rogue class starfighter. None of those really seem to fit for a escort squadron. The idea right now is that seps wont have escort at all but that the Hyena will have Grit. Do you guys think that could work balancingwise or do you think escort is required? The idea that seps dont escort any of their bombers feels kinda fitting to their overall combat philosophy of just throwing stuff at the enemy until he's overwhelmed.

4 minutes ago, >kkj said:

Short question: Any idea for what generic CIS squadron could have escort? Vulture, Tri and Hyena are already out of discussion for it and the only remaining starfighters (apart from Ventress and Grievous fighter) that i came up with are the Nantex-class geonosian starfighter, the Mankvim 814 light interceptor and the P-38/Rogue class starfighter. None of those really seem to fit for a escort squadron. The idea right now is that seps wont have escort at all but that he Hyena will have Grit. Do you guys think that could work balancingwise or do you think escort is required? The idea that seps dont escort any of their bombers feels kinda fitting to their overall combat philosophy of just throwing stuff at the enemy until he's overwhelmed.

I think it works. Just bump the Hyena to 5/6 hull to demonstrate their droid brain fixating on a target regardless of the losses, much like the Recusant. That should counteract the lack of escort.

My thoughts on CIS squads:

Vulture - 3 hull, 2 blue 1 red antisquad, 1 red antiship, swarm

Tri - 4 hull, 3 blue antisquad, 1 blue antisquad, swarm counter 1

Hyena - 6 hull, 1 black antisquad, 1 blaack anti-ship, bomber, grit

Cheaper, spammable squads that are less effective than the GAR. I thought there were more CIS star fighters but I can't find any while I'm at work. Perhaps have variants on the 3 core to show the progression through the CW? I assume they were upgraded like the B1 droids so they didn't rely on a command ship.

5 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I think it works. Just bump the Hyena to 5/6 hull to demonstrate their droid brain fixating on a target regardless of the losses, much like the Recusant. That should counteract the lack of escort.

My thoughts on CIS squads:

Vulture - 3 hull, 2 blue 1 red antisquad, 1 red antiship, swarm

Tri - 4 hull, 3 blue antisquad, 1 blue antisquad, swarm counter 1

Hyena - 6 hull, 1 black antisquad, 1 blaack anti-ship, bomber, grit

Cheaper, spammable squads that are less effective than the GAR. I thought there were more CIS star fighters but I can't find any while I'm at work. Perhaps have variants on the 3 core to show the progression through the CW? I assume they were upgraded like the B1 droids so they didn't rely on a command ship.

Haha you predicted a lot of stuff right there. Vultures will only have 2 blue antisquad but 1 red antiship and swarm. Tri will ony have 3 hull too and no counter but a awesome buzz droid ability. I wanted to give the Hyena 4 hull but maybe he will get 5

Just found this quote on the wiki " The Hyena bomber also carried two light laser cannons which eliminated the need for fighter escort" No escort there you have it xD

1 minute ago, >kkj said:

Haha you predicted a lot of stuff right there. Vultures will only have 2 blue antisquad but 1 red antiship and swarm. Tri will ony have 3 hull too and no counter but a awesome buzz droid ability. I wanted to give the Hyena 4 hull but maybe he will get 5

Not a big fan of "Special" rules for generic squadrons. Antoher option would be to give the Tri-Fighters 2 black 1 red for more possibility fopr mayham.

I always wondered how Vultures could be made "different than TIE/ln", 2 blue was my idea too. Perhaps the Droid fighters could all get Grit because they dont care about their fate? But that would remove their "cheap swarm" factor.

Just now, DScipio said:

Not a big fan of "Special" rules for generic squadrons. Antoher option would be to give the Tri-Fighters 2 black 1 red for more possibility fopr mayham.

I always wondered how Vultures could be made "different than TIE/ln", 2 blue was my idea too. Perhaps the Droid fighters could all get Grit because they dont care about their fate? But that would remove their "cheap swarm" factor.

The Tri Fighters have in fact 2 blue, 1 black. But i really want theme to have Buzz Droids. It has something to do with the single black die they have Tris dont have Swarm nor Grit because they werent that spammed as Vultures were but they will still be cheap enough to fly a lot of them