The ARC 170 is easily my favourite starfighter in Star Wars so i came up with a squadron card for it for Armada. @M0N0LITH was so kind to create the actual card for me.

The ARC 170 was more sturdy than the X-Wing and heavily shielded and armored so i gave it 6 hull. It was however more conceived as a elite fighter as compared to the X-Wing which served as the standard fighter of the rebellion. It required 3 crew and was overall more build for lonely reconaissence missions (hence the name "Aggressive ReConaissance") and as a heavy punch unit in a larger fighter wing complement. This combined with the fact that it needed 3 crew to operate justifies in my opinion my designchoice to make it stronger than the X-Wing despite being developed decades before the X-Wing. The design worked great for the republic which needed a heavy fighter to complement its other, lighter and massproduced fighters like the V-Wing and V-19 Torrent. After the rise of the empire the ARC 170 was just too specialized in its elite role and too expensive to operate with its need for 3 crew and a astromech to be useful for both the rebellion and the empire, thats why the design was eventually replaced by more costefficient single-pilot craft like the X-Wing and TIE Fighter despite being a capable and strong fighter. At least thats the way i see it, because tech in star wars doesnt seem to age significantly.

I gave the ARC Bomber with a red dice because it has 6 Torpedos just like the X-Wing and also gave it the same speed. Counter 1 for its dual rear turrets obviously and the single red die in its Antisquadron Armament stands for its 2 heavy lasercannons that were capable of punching through the hull of ships bigger than the ARC 170. So it has a slightly decreased chance of damaging enemy squads as compared to the X-Wing but a higher overall potential damage output which fits the ship IMO. Some people gave the ARC 170 "Heavy" like @DiabloAzul for example, but i think the ARC is really more of a multirole fighter than a sluggish bomber.

What do you guys think?

Dude thank you. From the bottom of my heart, somebody finally understands and appreciates this feat of G.A.R. excellence for what it is. the stats are exactly what I would have on this thing. The ARC 170 is also my fav fighter, as the venator is my fav ship. #teamvenator out here man. Still going strong man.

#teamvenator indeed man!

24 minutes ago, >kkj said:

The ARC 170 is easily my favourite starfighter in Star Wars so i came up with a squadron card for it for Armada. @M0N0LITH was so kind to create the actual card for me.

The ARC 170 was more sturdy than the X-Wing and heavily shielded and armored so i gave it 6 hull. It was however more conceived as a elite fighter as compared to the X-Wing which served as the standard fighter of the rebellion. It required 3 crew and was overall more build for lonely reconaissence missions (hence the name "Aggressive ReConaissance") and as a heavy punch unit in a larger fighter wing compliment. This combined with the fact that it needed 3 crew to operate justifies in my opinion my designchoice to make it stronger than the X-Wing despite being developed decades before the X-Wing. The design worked great for the republic which needed a heavy fighter to compliment its other, lighter and massproduced fighters like the V-Wing and V-19 Torrent. After the rise of the empire the ARC 170 was just too specialized in its elite role and too expensive to operate with its need for 3 crew and a astromech to be useful for both the rebellion and the empire, thats why the design was eventually replaced by more costefficient single-pilot craft like the X-Wing and TIE Fighter despite being a capable and strong fighter. At least thats the way i see it, because tech in star wars doesnt seem to age significantly.

I gave the ARC Bomber with a red dice because it has 6 Torpedos just like the X-Wing and also gave it the same speed. Counter 1 for its dual rear turrets obviously and the single red die in its Antisquadron Armament stands for its 2 heavy lasercannons that were capable of punching through the hull of ships bigger than the ARC 170. So it has a slightly decreased chance of damaging enemy squads as compared to the X-Wing but a higher overall potential damage output which fits the ship IMO. Some people gave the ARC 170 "Heavy" like @DiabloAzul for example, but i think the ARC is really more of a multirole fighter than a sluggish bomber.

What do you guys think?

I want to give it Escort to defend my various TIEs, but the TIE Advanced is only around because of Escort.

Did you intend for the ARC-170 to be an Imperial squadron? I'd love it if FFG had the next Wave include a Venator, ARC-170, and V-Wing expansion for the Imperials. Throw it all in the same box instead of a separating the squadrons.

13 hours ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I want to give it Escort to defend my various TIEs, but the TIE Advanced is only around because of Escort.

Did you intend for the ARC-170 to be an Imperial squadron? I'd love it if FFG had the next Wave include a Venator, ARC-170, and V-Wing expansion for the Imperials. Throw it all in the same box instead of a separating the squadrons.

Its Republic on purpose, but i could maybe see a imperial refit that has escort instead of the torpedolaunchers? Was always a big fan of the Escort/counter 1 combination on the YT-1300!

6 minutes ago, >kkj said:

Its Republic on purpose, but i could maybe seen a imperial refit that has escort instead of the torpedolaunchers? Was always a big fan of the Escort/counter 1 combination on the YT-1300!

I do think it could be Escort but make it Speed 2, there's plenty of ways for the Empire to make them faster, but the TIE Advanced would at least be twice the speed naturally.

3 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I do think it could be Escort but make it Speed 2, there's plenty of ways for the Empire to make them faster, but the TIE Advanced would at least be twice the speed naturally.

I agree that the Imps need another escort like the Rebel's YT-1300 but i dont think that Speed 2 is necessary. Just doesnt feel right for the ARC and Imps are typically faster than Rebs, so i think Speed 3 would be fine. Its cost of 15 would actually be pretty balanced too if you just replace bomber with Escort, compared to the YT-1300. -1 hull but +1 speed, +1 red Antisquad dice and switches blue Antiship dice for a red at a cost increase of 2. Sounds fine to me! Could call it "Imperial Patrol Refit" Makes sense too from a thematic perspective, Imps would rather need a patrol ship to keep the new order intact instead of a torpedo-equiped assault craft.

On 8/21/2018 at 6:17 PM, >kkj said:

Could  call it "Imperial Patrol Refit" Makes sense too from a thematic perspective, Imps would rather  need a patrol ship to keep the new order intact instead of a torpedo-equiped assault craft.

Save escort for a genique Squad Seven.

4 hours ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I want to give it Escort to defend my various TIEs, but the TIE Advanced is only around because of Escort.

Did you intend for the ARC-170 to be an Imperial squadron? I'd love it if FFG had the next Wave include a Venator, ARC-170, and V-Wing expansion for the Imperials. Throw it all in the same box instead of a separating the squadrons.

Given that the ARC in the xwing game was designated to the rebels it is more likely that it would appear as a rebels squadron, or else as a squadron both sides can use, until the appearance of clone wars factions..

10 hours ago, >kkj said:

The ARC 170 is easily my favourite starfighter in Star Wars so i came up with a squadron card for it for Armada. @M0N0LITH was so kind to create the actual card for me.

The ARC 170 was more sturdy than the X-Wing and heavily shielded and armored so i gave it 6 hull. It was however more conceived as a elite fighter as compared to the X-Wing which served as the standard fighter of the rebellion. It required 3 crew and was overall more build for lonely reconaissence missions (hence the name "Aggressive ReConaissance") and as a heavy punch unit in a larger fighter wing complement. This combined with the fact that it needed 3 crew to operate justifies in my opinion my designchoice to make it stronger than the X-Wing despite being developed decades before the X-Wing. The design worked great for the republic which needed a heavy fighter to complement its other, lighter and massproduced fighters like the V-Wing and V-19 Torrent. After the rise of the empire the ARC 170 was just too specialized in its elite role and too expensive to operate with its need for 3 crew and a astromech to be useful for both the rebellion and the empire, thats why the design was eventually replaced by more costefficient single-pilot craft like the X-Wing and TIE Fighter despite being a capable and strong fighter. At least thats the way i see it, because tech in star wars doesnt seem to age significantly.

I gave the ARC Bomber with a red dice because it has 6 Torpedos just like the X-Wing and also gave it the same speed. Counter 1 for its dual rear turrets obviously and the single red die in its Antisquadron Armament stands for its 2 heavy lasercannons that were capable of punching through the hull of ships bigger than the ARC 170. So it has a slightly decreased chance of damaging enemy squads as compared to the X-Wing but a higher overall potential damage output which fits the ship IMO. Some people gave the ARC 170 "Heavy" like @DiabloAzul for example, but i think the ARC is really more of a multirole fighter than a sluggish bomber.

What do you guys think?

Its too good. Why should the Rebellion not opt for the already proven ARC and instead use the unfinished X-Wing, which proved to be the most important fighter in the time span from clone wars to civil war and beyond. Heavy would be a good counter weight, and the ARC always had the feeling of beeing heavy to it. The Y-Wing and TIE-Bomber are both not "slugglish" bombers (The TIE Bomber is more agile than an X-Wing [86 DPF to 75DPF]) so Heavy is not just for that kind of craft.

10 hours ago, >kkj said:

Its Republic on purpose, but i could maybe seen a imperial refit that has escort instead of the torpedolaunchers? Was always a big fan of the Escort/counter 1 combination on the YT-1300!

I like the idea of replacing the bomber by escort for maybe one of the named squadrons...

31 minutes ago, M0N0LITH said:

I like the idea of replacing the bomber by escort for maybe one of the named squadrons...

That doesn't really make sense imho. These are not escorts by any stretch of the imagination.

1 hour ago, DScipio said:

Its too good. Why should the Rebellion not opt for the already proven ARC and instead use the unfinished X-Wing, which proved to be the most important fighter in the time span from clone wars to civil war and beyond. Heavy would be a good counter weight, and the ARC always had the feeling of beeing heavy to it. The Y-Wing and TIE-Bomber are both not "slugglish" bombers (The TIE Bomber is more agile than an X-Wing [86 DPF to 75DPF]) so Heavy is not just for that kind of craft.

Of the top of my head:
Because the x-wing is cheaper?
Because its easier and / or faster to produce?
Because it only needs one person to man?
Because it can fulfill the role of escort to Y-Wings or other slower bombers? (which I would argue the Arc is not suited for - Ties seem more maneuverable and faster than vultures and are guided by humans that are superior pilots in the SW canon and you don't have elite clones to man them. Also Arcs seem to be too slow for this).
Because most of the ARCs were part of imperial service and were destroyed after being mustered out?
Becasue production of the arc stopped?

10 minutes ago, Doppelganger said:

That doesn't really make sense imho. These are not escorts by any stretch of the imagination.

Of the top of my head:
Because the x-wing is cheaper?
Because its easier and / or faster to produce?
Because it only needs one person to man?
Because it can fulfill the role of escort to Y-Wings or other slower bombers? (which I would argue the Arc is not suited for - Ties seem more maneuverable and faster than vultures and are guided by humans that are superior pilots in the SW canon and you don't have elite clones to man them. Also Arcs seem to be too slow for this).
Because most of the ARCs were part of imperial service and were destroyed after being mustered out?
Becasue production of the arc stopped?

Most are valid, but the last two not so much, because the Alliance created their own producion of fighters and only stole the blueprints, which should be much easier to aquire for the Arc than for the X-Wing project.

While the ARC was sligthly more expensive while new:

• New: 155,000 credits ^[2]
• Used: 70,000 credits ^[2]

than the X-Wing:

Cost

its not much, and the "Old" proven ARC-170 should be cheaper to produce than a total new craft like the X-Wing.

I also think that the larger crew of the ARC, would be a benefit for the rebellion, because they were short on pilots but not on gunners, (and therefor went for few elite craft). A Tail gunner protecting such craft would be a logical conclusion.

I think it boils down to the role: The X-Wing is more agile and better suited to fill many roles: Escort, hit-and-run and dogfighting, a true multirole fighter unlike the ARC. And that leads us back to the stats that should not make the ARC better at what the X-Wing shines: Beeing a great multirole fighter.

3 minutes ago, DScipio said:

• New: 155,000 credits ^[2]
• Used: 70,000 credits ^[2]

than the X-Wing:

Cost

• 149,999 credits (new) ^[5]
• 90,000 credits (used) ^[5]

its not much, and the "Old" proven ARC-170 should be cheaper to produce than a total new craft like the X-Wing.

Are those numbers adjusted for inflation? Just kidding. Interesting find there. Sometimes I forget how rediculously detailed SW lore can be. Didn't even occur to me to look it up.

4 minutes ago, DScipio said:

Most are valid, but the last two not so much, because the Alliance created their own producion of fighters and only stole the blueprints, which should be much easier to aquire for the Arc than for the X-Wing project.

I agree: should
But it really boils down to opportunity, does it not? And I think the theft simultaneously deprived the Empire of the new design, so that alone would have been worth it.

Concerning personnel involved I agree: less skilled combatants should be readily available, question is do you have enough trustworthy people? I feel like manpower was in short supply for the Rebels?

But all of this goes too deep into speculation anyway.
Bottom line for me: I like the card design, I think its nice and fits perfectly. I think it comes out even when fighting Defenders and including counter 1 (although Defender damage is sligthly more consistent)? Which leaves the Defenders with one more point and a speed of +2 which shoud give them always the initial attack. Seems balanced to me.

So if the ARC 170 is not an escort, which squad. at that time would have fulfilled that role?

In terms of comparison to xwing - even if it is a little older the armory and hull fit to its stats as it is bigger and heavily armoured. It already is 2 points more expensive which explains the cheaper production of the xwing. Maybe go up in price by 1 point but not more...

5 minutes ago, Doppelganger said:

Are those numbers adjusted for inflation? Just kidding. Interesting find there. Sometimes I forget how rediculously detailed SW lore can be. Didn't even occur to me to look it up.

I agree: should
But it really boils down to opportunity, does it not? And I think the theft simultaneously deprived the Empire of the new design, so that alone would have been worth it.

Concerning personnel involved I agree: less skilled combatants should be readily available, question is do you have enough trustworthy people? I feel like manpower was in short supply for the Rebels?

But all of this goes too deep into speculation anyway.
Bottom line for me: I like the card design, I think its nice and fits perfectly. I think it comes out even when fighting Defenders and including counter 1 (although Defender damage is sligthly more consistent)? Which leaves the Defenders with one more point and a speed of +2 which shoud give them always the initial attack. Seems balanced to me.

You will laugh, but I did ask myself about the possibility of inflation. But right now we dont even know if inflation exists in Star Wars. (so much to rediculously detailed )

I dont think the Rebellion was actually short of manpower for gunners (severeal whole planets revolted), at least not on a 1:1 basis for their indeed rare pilots.

You are totaly right: deep in speculation, but my bottom line is: I would not like to see a much better X-Wing, that is also very cheap (changing Escort to Counter 1 AND +1 hull for 3 points? Make it a Venti!)

1 minute ago, M0N0LITH said:

So if the ARC 170 is not an escort, which squad. at that time would have fulfilled that role?

In terms of comparison to xwing - even if it is a little older the armory and hull fit to its stats as it is bigger and heavily armoured. It already is 2 points more expensive which explains the cheaper production of the xwing. Maybe go up in price by 1 point but not more...

I think it was something like that:

Light line fighter:

first: V-19 Torrent starfighter

then: Alpha-3 Nimbus-class V-wing starfighter

Escort / Multirole

Eta-2 Actis-class interceptor Interceptor (despite its name):(elite formations)
Z-95 Headhunter

Interceptor: Delta-7B Aethersprite-class light interceptor Escort
Heavy Assualt: Arc-170

1 hour ago, Doppelganger said:

I think it comes out even when fighting Defenders and including counter 1 (although Defender damage is sligthly more consistent)? Which leaves the Defenders with one more point and a speed of +2 which shoud give them always the initial attack. Seems balanced to me.

Yep i tested them against Defenders and Defenders come out on top of the ARC with 1 Hull remaining most of the time. The ARC has a slight chance of winning though if he rolls that one double hit or hits both counter attacks. Thats why i felt that the cost of 15 is pretty perfect. Defender has +2 Speed and hits a little bit harder.

2 hours ago, DScipio said:

I would not like to see a much better X-Wing, that is also very cheap (changing Escort to Counter 1 AND +1 hull for 3 points? Make it a Venti!)

Why exactly do you feel like my design is too powerful? Remember, this ARC 170 is REPUBLIC, its not gonna replace the X-Wing in any aspect. The whole escort version was just a request for an imperial service version of it. And if you want to discuss that version, compare it to the YT-1300. That squadron has +1 hull but -1 red die and a blue antiship vs a red for being 2 points cheaper. That sounds very fair to me and i dont know about you but i have used those YTs to great effect.

Regarding the reasons why the rebels didnt use the ARC over the X-Wing, well the rebels did lack manpower. Yeah sure they could operate some but im sure its also much harder to get old imperial military craft in any significant numbers since the empire surely wont just have those ARCs on second hand sale or lying around everywhere. They dismantled them for the most part and used the ressources for other craft. Also the ARC was probably outdated in some minor aspects like sensors and hyperdrive and it was in fact much less maneuverable than the X-Wing. I think this are enough reasons to not make the ARC a worthless heavy squadron and the cost is very balanced as i showed above. Also, all the lore suggests that the ARC was in fact a viable starfighter combatant and i dont like the idea to make a design that does not do the craft justice just to make the X-Wing look better. The X-Wing was the more logical craft for the Rebellion but that does not mean that the ARC does have to be bad.

And regarding numbers in Star Wars... those can pretty much be ignored. If we would take those seriously than the entire Clone Army consisted of only 3 Millionen clones while the seps had Quadrillions of droids and capital ship reactors could burn so much fuel in one second that their mass must be as big as a whole planet. Apart from the ships sizes, most numbers in Star Wars dont make sense and are just there to look cool.

1 hour ago, DScipio said:

I think it was something like that:

Light line fighter:

first: V-19 Torrent starfighter

then: Alpha-3 Nimbus-class V-wing starfighter

Escort / Multirole

Eta-2 Actis-class interceptor Interceptor (despite its name):(elite formations)
Z-95 Headhunter

Interceptor: Delta-7B Aethersprite-class light interceptor Escort
Heavy Assualt: Arc-170

The V-Wing and V-19 Torrent were the mass produced main fighter line of the Republic. The Z-95 was kind of a experiment and used to replace the V-19 before the V-Wing came along, which was just the better craft.

The Eta 2 Actis was foremost a incredibly fast but light interceptor that could pretty much only be used by Jedi.

Im working on creating the other Republic squadrons too and think i will give escort to either the Z-95 or V-19 Torrent.

V-Wing will probaly get swarm and maybe counter for its high maneuverability (like the A-Wing and TIE Interceptor) and the V-19 will get Swarm and a black antiship die for its concussion missiles.

Not sure about the Clone Z-95 yet, i want to make it a earlier, slightly different version than the later model.

I think you can justify swapping the red anti squad to a black. The Arc really packed a punch and would differentiate it from the other fast squads. And for it's stat line, it's slightly worse than a Tie/D, so you could keep it to 14. It's slightly better than an X-Wing, but the lack of speed 3 and better dice means it's not worth 16 either. This would ultimately depend on what the other squadrons cost though, since you want things to be balanced with your faction first.

13 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I think you can justify swapping the red anti squad to a black. The Arc really packed a punch and would differentiate it from the other fast squads. And for it's stat line, it's slightly worse than a Tie/D, so you could keep it to 14. It's slightly better than an X-Wing, but the lack of speed 3 and better dice means it's not worth 16 either. This would ultimately depend on what the other squadrons cost though, since you want things to be balanced with your faction first.

Thanks for the suggestion. I think with a black antisquad its just straight up better than a X-Wing and i like the fact that the ARC CAN hit harder but has a slightly worse chance to hit compared to the X-Wing. Stands for the ARCs worse maneuverability you know? Those 2 heavy cannons are pretty far apart and will likely either hit or miss while the X-Wings four cannons can probably hit targets more consistently even if not all shots hit. A black die would just add more damage consistency, not potential damage output.

?

Regarding cost 14, i think thats too cheap, counter 1 with 6 hull is pretty strong and as i said the ARC has a slight chance to win against defenders.

I tried to have a good reason for every design choice and stay true to the lore while still making it balanced.

1 hour ago, >kkj said:

Why exactly do you feel like my design is too powerful? Remember, this ARC 170 is REPUBLIC, its not gonna replace the X-Wing in any aspect. The whole escort version was just a request for an imperial service version of it. And if you want to discuss that version, compare it to the YT-1300. That squadron has +1 hull but -1 red die and a blue antiship vs a red for being 2 points cheaper. That sounds very fair to me and i dont know about you but i have used those YTs to great effect.

Regarding the reasons why the rebels didnt use the ARC over the X-Wing, well the rebels did lack manpower. Yeah sure they could operate some but im sure its also much harder to get old imperial military craft in any significant numbers since the empire surely wont just have those ARCs on second hand sale or lying around everywhere. They dismantled them for the most part and used the ressources for other craft. Also the ARC was probably outdated in some minor aspects like sensors and hyperdrive and it was in fact much less maneuverable than the X-Wing. I think this are enough reasons to not make the ARC a worthless heavy squadron and the cost is very balanced as i showed above. Also, all the lore suggests that the ARC was in fact a viable starfighter combatant and i dont like the idea to make a design that does not do the craft justice just to make the X-Wing look better. The X-Wing was the more logical craft for the Rebellion but that does not mean that the ARC does have to be bad.

And regarding numbers in Star Wars... those can pretty much be ignored. If we would take those seriously than the entire Clone Army consisted of only 3 Millionen clones while the seps had Quadrillions of droids and capital ship reactors could burn so much fuel in one second that their mass must be as big as a whole planet. Apart from the ships sizes, most numbers in Star Wars dont make sense and are just there to look cool.

I like you idea in general (like most of your ideas), it was just when seeing it, I was more like: I would alwys use them instead of X-Wings, perhaps even instead of all X-Wings, B-Wings and Y-Wings. And we know the Arc-170 landed in Rebel service, so it should be available to them. I might be that +2 points is not to few, but its just a very well rounded and very powerful ship.

As I said: The Rebels lacked manpower but its not really plausible for tail gunners to be scare, as you only need few only medium trained personell. And if they aquired a lot of spaceships (not fighters) from the Imperium they would have it easy to aquire mothballed ARCs, a single lot would supply the rebellion substantially. I also think the the Arc might be "outdated in some minor aspects like sensors and hyperdrive and it was in fact much less maneuverable than the X-Wing" but your card makes it just a better X-Wing. Why not apply Heavy to it, that would perfectly adress all this and refelct the fact, that the ARC was indeed not as agile as an X-Wing, perhaps not even as an Y-Wing. I dont understand why "heavy" would make it "worthless" or even only "bad": it packs **** of a punch and can break through almost anything but the most dedicated Elite-Fighters.

If you begin to ignore numbers because some numbers are flawed, you can just begin to ignorne anything. And beside: The number 3,000,000 was Sifo-Dyas' initial order, the number of total clones increased during the war.

Not all numbers are to look cool, some even derived from mechanics, like the DPF numbers for Fighters. You will never get a better feeling for these ships as by flying them in the Simulator-Games and the numbers reflect their possibilites there.

2 hours ago, >kkj said:

The V-Wing and V-19 Torrent were the mass produced main fighter line of the Republic. The Z-95 was kind of a experiment and used to replace the V-19 before the V-Wing came along, which was just the better craft.

The Eta 2 Actis was foremost a incredibly fast but light interceptor that could pretty much only be used by Jedi.

Im working on creating the other Republic squadrons too and think i will give escort to either the Z-95 or V-19 Torrent.

V-Wing will probaly get swarm and maybe counter for its high maneuverability (like the A-Wing and TIE Interceptor) and the V-19 will get Swarm and a black antiship die for its concussion missiles.

Not sure about the Clone Z-95 yet, i want to make it a earlier, slightly different version than the later model.

I agree with Escort for the Z-95 and perhaps the V-19. The Eta 2 was not only used by Jedis, but I guess as a very expensive elite fighter, hardly anyone except Jedis ever got to use them in a wider scale.

Black anti-ship die for the V-Wings could fit as A-Wings also have it. Strangly enough TIE-Defenders dont.

How do you treat the Y-Wing? +1Hull? Removing Heavy?

I still dont understand why the gave the Z-95 three red AntiSquadron and a red AntiShip. Perhaps the Clone wars Z-95 just switches Swarm for Escort and gets the classic three blue dice Anti-Squadron, 1 black AntiShip?