So decivader with a punisher wingman, kitted properly what could you get in there with them?

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Trajectory Simulator, my friend. Kiss swarms goodbye

Honestly, though, hitting swarms wouldn't help the deci much. A gaggle of solid ships, such as Xs or ESPECIALLY barrage Rocket bombers, will fly through it about just as easily

Poor thing just needs a cost reduction (or trajectory Sims of their own... launchable devices, anyone?)

Punisher isn't going to run down swarms on its own, sadly

Don't think it'll last long enough to do anything for the deci.

14 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

This is almost why I’d rather have vader on the lowest init possible and have high init wingman. Make the wingmen strip tokens and use vader to push damage. It would completely be torn apart by swarms though, too many targets.

Doesn't Vader activate at the start of the Engagement phase? Good thoughts, though.

1 hour ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

That said, I've toyed with the idea of spending those 8 points on RAC instead of the gunner. But I do like the idea of barreling in to draw fire from the Squints.

I think I like this. I don't see a whole lot of value in the gunner upgrades for the Decimator. I may change my tune after I put it on the table.

I'm just so incredibly happy that it's now the way I always imagined it: a picket ship or command ship rather than the original design of "Evil Millennium Falcon". I know that was it's original inception in Star Wars Galaxies, but the aesthetics don't match. I'm very excited to put Grand Moff Tarkin on this thing as he gets his hands dirty fighting Rebels up close and personal!

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Punisher isn't going to run down swarms on its own, sadly

Don't think it'll last long enough to do anything for the deci.

That’s the only empire traj sim option isn’t it?

Yup, just punisher and a dead deathfire

You can combat swarms in other ways such as arcdodging or slipping around obstacles (or generally persistent defensive mods, ala moldy crow focus bath or Luke Forcus or serissu). Just the poor deci ain't real good at all that

If the cost of a kitted deci slipped back down to half your list (which would be fair, imo) you could get two juke sigmas to clean up the swarm

3 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Doesn't Vader activate at the start of the Engagement phase? Good thoughts, though.

Curses

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

You don't need a four die primary when ya got Lord Vader!

There is an argument to be had about the necessity of even 1 death star.

NEED is not a word Imperials know.

We WANT huge guns. The best guns, folks. Tremendous guns.

15 hours ago, Prosk_019 said:

A recent poll portrayed the Decimator as potentially under performing, but to me it looks like the ship is better costed than it was in 1.0 (both chassis and pilots) because of how darn versatile it seems now! So what gives? Are you finding the thing to be more or less powerful than in 1.0? Does it just not have the upgrades that previously kept it alive anymore such as VI and EU?

A lot of the upgrades either no longer exist or cost more on big ships now, and its role in the game doesnt fit as well because of how they changed everything else.

I used to be able to fly a pretty solid Deci for 50-60 points and a pair of decent wingmen. 2.0 pricing has made that trickier to find synergy .

Im not saying its unplayable or anything, it just feels like the 1.0 problems got carried over into 2.0 without the 1.0 fixes

I think ffg saw Reinforce as the fix

Which it sorta is, just not when it's over half your list

All large ships seem conversatively priced. The ones without repositioning should see a cost decrease

16 hours ago, YourHucklebrry said:

There's definitely grades of mobile arcs. I don't think that bowtie arc is worth much more than a single mobile arc, for one. But once people get the hang of them in general I don't think they'll find it dramatically less powerful than the old PWTs.

The main advantage of bow-tie arcs that I've seen has been when using the decimator as a battering ram; set the turret forward and reinforce forward, then overfly and reinforce back whilst shooting through the other arc.

Broadside on works too - but it's a lot harder to judge for or aft for reinforce.

5 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

A lot of the upgrades either no longer exist or cost more on big ships now, and its role in the game doesnt fit as well because of how they changed everything else.

I used to be able to fly a pretty solid Deci for 50-60 points and a pair of decent wingmen. 2.0 pricing has made that trickier to find synergy .

Im not saying its unplayable or anything, it just feels like the 1.0 problems got carried over into 2.0 without the 1.0 fixes

This sort of philosophy puzzles me. The doubling of points in 2.0 seems to have thrown people for a loop. You can still spend 50-60 pts equivalent on a Deci and have a solid pair of wingmen (I literally did exactly that on the previous page). 50-60 in 1.0 is 100-120 in 2.0. Use the same math, just x2.

I made this observation elsewhere regarding Soontir Fel. You realize the old Fel build (PTL, Autothrusters, Stealth Device) was 35 pts in 1.0, which means he'd be 70 pts in 2.0. It's actually hard to get him to that many points now, but he'll probably be terrifying once people start building him that way again. It's just this weird disconnect we seem to have because of the points doubling. (BTW, Fel with Predator, Stealth Device, Afterburners is 70 pts - you're welcome).

You can build a 120pt Deci but it's not a patch on an old 60pt Deci for the reasons already discussed.

And that 70pts Fel is rubbish, just play him for 52 points and spend the other 18pts on something more worthwhile.

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

You can build a 120pt Deci but it's not a patch on an old 60pt Deci for the reasons already discussed.

And that 70pts Fel is rubbish, just play him for 52 points and spend the other 18pts on something more worthwhile.

I disagree, on both counts. They're not like 1.0 versions, but they fill the same points rather well. It all depends on what and how you want to fly. My Deci build was 114 pts and it was designed as a gunship that draws fire. That's kinda how I always played that ship. It's early to say anything is "rubbish" - I'll play both of those builds and let you know my results, but your results may vary widely from mine. I feel they'd be effective, though my "standard" build for Fel is different (yes, it's a bit lighter than 70 pts - either 55 or 58 as of now).

Going into a game with a pessimistic mindset will only hurt your own fun. This is the exploratory phase. That's why these threads are so much fun - I love seeing what you all come up with. My observation is correct though - there's a weird disconnect because of the 200 pt model vs the 100 pt model. Everyone seems to be leaning towards more cheap ships than fewer expensive ones and the big focus has been on TIE swarms. I like that they're making a resurgence, but I feel they'll only be one of many lists that are effective. FFG has done a solid job of leaving no ship behind. I can find merit in nearly all of them and the one's I can't, I simply don't like aesthetically. (I'm an artist - yeah, that plays a factor - lol).

22 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

2e  Oicunn might as well not have an ability, if you can't actually BLOCK someone. Because  avoiding the ram is honestly pret  ty trivial  . 

I find a huge potential for Oicunn in close quarter combat. All he needs is wingmates that are mobile enough to play around safely. My take is :

Captain Oicunn — VT-49 Decimator 84
Intimidation 3
Fifth Brother 12
Ship Total: 99

"Sigma Squadron Ace" — TIE Phantom 46
Juke 4
Ship Total: 50

"Echo" — TIE Phantom 50
Crack Shot 1
Ship Total: 51

How about:

Unnamed Squadron (200)
"Sigma Squadron Ace" — TIE Phantom 46
Juke 4
Ship Total: 50

"Sigma Squadron Ace" — TIE Phantom 46
Juke 4
Ship Total: 50

Patrol Leader — VT-49 Decimator 80
Darth Vader 14
0-0-0 3
Seismic Charges 3
Ship Total: 100

actually the deci is probably the only ship i'd put Vet Gunner on.

If you have a deci you more than likely are a 2ship list. With Chirpy, probably not a wise idea, but on Oicunn its very likely you could get splitshots on your opponent since hes trying to dive into their ranks and bump. And y ou are going to need all the shots you can get.

Makes sense.

5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The main advantage of bow-tie arcs that I've seen has been when using the decimator as a battering ram; set the turret forward and reinforce forward, then overfly and reinforce back whilst shooting through the other arc.

Broadside on works too - but it's a lot harder to judge for or aft for reinforce.

That's a very good point. With most other turrets I'll be defaulting to the cross-bow orientation and strafing all game. But something like the Decimator will probably want to have a front/back arc, default to reinforce, and engage head-on. I should probably compare it more to the Ghost than the Falcon or YT-2400.

20 minutes ago, YourHucklebrry said:

That's a very good point. With most other turrets I'll be defaulting to the cross-bow orientation and strafing all game. But something like the Decimator will probably want to have a front/back arc, default to reinforce, and engage head-on. I should probably compare it more to the Ghost than the Falcon or YT-2400.

I would agree - and it seems to suit their pilot abilities, too. Between Dauntless and Minister Tua, you can easily still get a reinforce if you crash into someone, and Chiraneau gets an attack die modification into the bargain whilst Oicunn gets to blow away whoever he's just crashed into without them shooting back - and Dauntless is a very useful title for this, too.

Now whether the ship needs to be cheaper, as @ficklegreendice is implying - that, without playing games, I can't comment on.

The job it does, it does well. It just doesn't do what it used to do - which was be the Empire's knock-off Millenium Falcon or Outrider and run rings around people whilst pelting them with turret fire.

The thing is, if it's a 4+ ship meta then there's not a lot to be done for the Deci without it having a Boost action. That's always been the case in 1st Ed and it'll be the case in 2nd Ed too, it's just not what the Deci is good at.

Not all horses are good on all courses, and the Deci definitely shines in particular metagames and not others.

I'm not implying the deci needs a cost reduction, I'm just claiming it to be so

To be VERY explicit

1.) I LOVE what they did to the Deci. "Evil falcon" and just boost-turrets in generally were unequivocally the single WORST thing about 1st edition

I'd spit on their grave if they had one. Good riddance

The reinforce Deci tank is the perfect use for such an intimdating model

I would despise it if it got boost back

2.) But in order to tank, it'll need a cost reduction. It will burn down quite quickly, and if it's prohibitively expensive it won't have enough support to follow through

Though I don't doubt help will come in future waves (seismic torpedoes, launch support devices, perhaps a unique imp crew that functions as Xizor) , imo the deci still needs to go down in price to at least the level of the VCX

Imo it'd be competitive if you could get Vader + tua Cheri + two juke Sigma phantoms in a list. Cheri would have to be 79 points base

7 hours ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

This sort of philosophy puzzles me. The doubling of points in 2.0 seems to have thrown people for a loop. You can still spend 50-60 pts equivalent on a Deci and have a solid pair of wingmen (I literally did exactly that on the previous page). 50-60 in 1.0 is 100-120 in 2.0. Use the same math, just x2.

I made this observation elsewhere regarding Soontir Fel. You realize the old Fel build (PTL, Autothrusters, Stealth Device) was 35 pts in 1.0, which means he'd be 70 pts in 2.0. It's actually hard to get him to that many points now, but he'll probably be terrifying once people start building him that way again. It's just this weird disconnect we seem to have because of the points doubling. (BTW, Fel with Predator, Stealth Device, Afterburners is 70 pts - you're welcome).

You missed my point.

Im not saying the decimator costs more, Im saying its no longer as good in that range because of external factors. Because:

1) You essentially have to buy an agile gunner or you never get an action. Its a 10 point tax. Rotating arc is a needed change, but it hurts turrets bad. One thing no one has talked about is that version 2.0s version of a stresshog prevents turrets from rotating, which seems broken

2) Many ships have the Re-enforce action AND agility, which blunts your shots a lot. The Deci has it too, but lacks the as agility, and now your actions are basically telegraphed, as Deci players will re-enforce often just to survive, leaving you without the vital rerolls or mods. We previously solved this with ptl, but no more

3) this edition charges more for upgrades on large ships, but also doesnt allow others to use key upgrades at all. Engine upgrade used to be vital on decimators because its so easy to chunk them down when you know where theyre going as they bumble along. Maybe this doesnt matter because of re-enforce, maybe the lower damage solves it entirely? We'll see.

I'll still try a decimator out, i just think that for that price a decimator looks bad compared to Firesprays or Imp aces like vader. Doesnt look balanced

40 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

One thing no one has talked about is that version 2.0s version of a stresshog prevents turrets from rotating, which seems broken

Out of curiosity, what is 2.0's version of a stresshog? I'm pretty sure all the reliable means of inducing stress on to another player's ship have been removed in 2.0. What did I miss?

33 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

You missed my point.

Im not saying the decimator costs more, Im saying its no longer as good in that range because of external factors. Because:

1) You essentially have to buy an agile gunner or you never get an action. Its a 10 point tax. Rotating arc is a needed change, but it hurts turrets bad. One thing no one has talked about is that version 2.0s version of a stresshog prevents turrets from rotating, which seems broken

2) Many ships have the Re-enforce action AND agility, which blunts your shots a lot. The Deci has it too, but lacks the as agility, and now your actions are basically telegraphed, as Deci players will re-enforce often just to survive, leaving you without the vital rerolls or mods. We previously solved this with ptl, but no more

3) this edition charges more for upgrades on large ships, but also doesnt allow others to use key upgrades at all. Engine upgrade used to be vital on decimators because its so easy to chunk them down when you know where theyre going as they bumble along. Maybe this doesnt matter because of re-enforce, maybe the lower damage solves it entirely? We'll see.

I'll still try a decimator out, i just think that for that price a decimator looks bad compared to Firesprays or Imp aces like vader. Doesnt look balanced

I think I understand where you're coming from. I also see the void left from 1.0 for the Decimator, but I like the new direction they've added to the ship as well - it doesn't fill the void, but instead changes it into a new ship entirely. This Decimator is designed to reinforce and gun down anything nearby. Even the reinforce is only required vs multiple shots coming in (swarms) and less necessary vs ace lists, where focus fire is required. So, I get it and thank you for clarifying. I think a lot of us are having mental hiccups with some of the new paradigms set forth by these redesigns. Some are more severe than others. I think I've stated before that I told my opponent three times that my Defenders had advanced sensors and he was still surprised when I boosted first and then K-turned. He got over that the next time we played. I think the same will go for Decimators - they'll behave like totally different ships in 2.0, which, I feel, is a good thing!

Oh, man, I came up with a terrible idea, but it amuses me, so I'll share: The Dark Side Party Bus.

Oicunn, w/ Intimidation, Dauntless, Vader, Seventh Sister and Fifth Brother. Vader's probably going to be the only one I'd even use the ability on, the others are there for their force points.

Escorted by 3x Academy Pilots. The main purpose of these is for blocking to line up the ram from Oicunn. I wouldn't even bother trying to keep them in formation.

It can run into things, reinforce, and still get dice modification thanks to force points!

Granted, it will just melt quickly to swarms, which is why this is a terrible idea.