45 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Well this is part of the problem, casual players don't drive or create communities, they don't show up at LGS to participate in weekly store tournaments regularly and they don't push forward game and it's community. Just look at MtG, it is the tournament scene and weekly tournaments that drive this game forward and makes people gather around it.

BULL ****, Casuals are CONSTANTLY creating communities, its just not YOUR community of grind to the teeth numbers only doesnt matter what is on top of the peg, do whatever it takes to win community that only cares if they win. Its not going to a brick and motor store to pay to play a game, instead they create communities inside there homes, having fun together and then bringing in more people as word of mouth spreads through family and friends. Just because players dont support your "Official Tournament" and throw money at THAT PARTICULAR game mode, doesnt mean they dont support the FFG game or create communities. Thats backwards thinking, almost to the point that you are basically just saying "I'm a elitist, and only people that throw money constantly at said product should be able to play" That type of thinking is what is wrong with modern gaming, its no longer about the game being fun and enjoyable for all and that type of thinking needs to be CUT out.

You might as well start waving a red and black flag spouting rude propaganda against those people, chasing them from there homes with torches and pitch forks, saying "Stay away from our game"

2 hours ago, Embir82 said:

All casuals were just that, casuals, that bored with the game and jumped to the next new shiny toy. In my case those hardcore tournament players are the ones maintaining X-Wing alive.

As another thought, what if those bored casuals were like me:

After 5 or 6 games of "spaceships in a sandbox" they asked "what else?"

But were told by the hardcores: "Well, you gotta play the same list 3 score time to git gud so you can win some plastic chits."

And they thought, "Huh. I thought this game was about the movies" or "That sounds pretty boring; I'm going to play something else."

What if there was a product that retained those players?

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

I have already concurred that balance and design (which would include faction identity) are important.

And there are a lot of people who have proposed the Mercenary mechanic, so yeah, that could be a thing.

Again, if the idea is a bit wonky for tournament purists, make the concept EPIC ONLY.

At which point, why not just make it casual only? Let FFG make the game as balanced as they can for competitive play and people who want to not focus on that can do pretty much whatever they want.

Want to have bounty hunters? Play Casual. Want to have Rebels fly stolen Republic or Imperial ships? Play Casual. Want to do a kicka** event that spans multiple games and makes for great stories? Play Casual. Want to fly Legends ships from the Old Republic, New Jedi Order Era, or the Legacy era against ST era ships? Buy stuff from Mel's shop and Play Casual.

Look, I can see people wanting to have casual only releases, but FFG would likely need to throw in material for competitive play to boost sales, which means we get people upset like they were when Epic stuff had 3PO, Palpatine, and Advanced Targeting Computer or Core Set 2.0 included the must have damage deck that was quickly back tracked. I'm not saying they won't release stuff for different play experiences and would welcome it, but they have to walk the line of keeping their consumer base happy and buying the product.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

As another thought, what if those bored casuals were like me:

After 5 or 6 games of "spaceships in a sandbox" they asked "what else?"

But were told by the hardcores: "Well, you gotta play the same list 3 score time to git gud so you can win some plastic chits."

And they thought, "Huh. I thought this game was about the movies" or "That sounds pretty boring; I'm going to play something else."

What if there was a product that retained those players?

A starwars game that was about Starwars? Omg what a concept!

1 hour ago, Animewarsdude said:

At which point, why not just make it casual only? Let FFG make the game as balanced as they can for competitive play and people who want to not focus on that can do pretty much whatever they want.

Want to have bounty hunters? Play Casual. Want to have Rebels fly stolen Republic or Imperial ships? Play Casual. Want to do a kicka** event that spans multiple games and makes for great stories? Play Casual. Want to fly Legends ships from the Old Republic, New Jedi Order Era, or the Legacy era against ST era ships? Buy stuff from Mel's shop and Play Casual.

Look, I can see people wanting to have casual only releases, but FFG would likely need to throw in material for competitive play to boost sales, which means we get people upset like they were when Epic stuff had 3PO, Palpatine, and Advanced Targeting Computer or Core Set 2.0 included the must have damage deck that was quickly back tracked. I'm not saying they won't release stuff for different play experiences and would welcome it, but they have to walk the line of keeping their consumer base happy and buying the product.

So, you're saying it is in FFG's best interest for me to take my considerable "here, take my money" XWM enthusiasm and channel it into the purchase of products NOT made by FFG?

Meanwhile, they should concentrate on the group of players who whines about excessive expenditures on the game (that are all optional, mind you) to win plastic chits.

Not to mention that the TFA Core box was a pitiful $30 outlay to actually improve the game with a better designed damage deck.

You're right. I have the game mechanics. I can make up anything I want and FFG can get $0 from me.

OTOH, while tournament players buy 1 or 2 copies of a ship to make a tournament list, I was buying 4-10 copies for casual play. So while I might have been a Rare Specimen, I might be worth 4-5 tournament players for Quantity Purchased. And there are other players like this.

Here we are 5 years in, and still no Shuttle Tydirium. Not tonight. Kill a few Bothans, steal a shuttle, and rush to the rescue of Rebel prisoners currently held by the Galactic Empire. Can the strike team sneak in, save the prisoners, and race back out before they are blasted to space dust?

List Building:

The Rebel player brings a 300 point list. In addition, the Rebel player can choose 3 Unique Rebel crew to be rescued, and has the option of one of them being a new crew card, Imperial Captive (which works identically to Rebel Captive). The Rebel player does not pay the costs of these crew cards in their list, nor for the cost of Chewbacca (in Lambda Shuttle), the Shuttle Tydirium title, or the Captured Shuttle modification. Sensor, Cannon, and (non-rescued) Crew upgrades for the shuttle are paid for as normal.

The Imperial Player brings a 300 point list with no restrictions.

Set Up:

6x3 play area. Players deploy along the short ends of the board. Asteroid set-up as usual.

At the Imperial end of the board, the Imperial player places 3 Escape Pod tokens in a band at least Range 2 from the end of the board, not more than Range 4 from the edge, and at least Range 2 from either side of the board. These represent the held Rebel prisoners, one per Escape Pod. The Rebel player gives the Imperial player his 3 crew card prisoners, and the Imperial player places one crew card under each Escape Pod token, face down.

Imperial forces set up within range 3 of the Imperial edge. Rebels set up within Range 5 of the Rebel edge. The Shuttle Tydirium can deploy anywhere on the Rebel half of the board. Set up proceeds as normal by PS.

Play:

The goal is for the Rebels to free at least one prisoner, and flee off the Rebel table edge. Only one prisoner is required for a Rebel win; rescuring extra prisoners could be useful for helping the shuttle survive to escape.

A prisoner is rescued when the shuttle lands on an Escape Pod token. The shuttle cannot be the target of attacks while on an Escape Pod token (the Imperial Navy has a strict policy about firing upon Escape Pods, even if they are no life forms on board). When a prisoner is rescued, he or she is added to the shuttle as crew, and the shuttle gains access to all that crew card’s abilities.

The Shuttle Tydirium may not be attacked by the Imperial until (a) a prisoner is rescued, (b) the shuttle attacks an Imperial ship, or (c) the Imperials detect that the shuttle is stolen.

Imperial detection of the shuttle is determined as follows:

Each ship gets a single roll of a number of attack dice equal to 1/3 modified PS (rounded down) when it first comes within Range 3 of the shuttle. Thus, PS 1-2 pilots do not get a roll, PS 3-5 pilots roll 1 die, PS 6-8 pilots roll 2 dice, and PS 9+ pilots roll 3 dice. On an Crit result, the shuttle’s identity is compromised and may be attacked by all Imperial forces on the next turn. Note than each pilot is allowed 1 roll for the game. . .if that roll fails, that pilot is duped for the rest of the game until another pilot detects the intrusion.

Victory Conditions:

The Rebel player must rescue at least one prisoner. The Imperial player thus wins if they destroy the shuttle.

Special Cards:

A lot of these replys, and topics just proves more and more a video I once saw, starwars used to be a place where people used to get together because they LIKED starwars, but now, its nothing but a "marketing" word, that has lost all value, especially the one of community and enjoyment. Starwars is indeed dead, or at the very least, its real meaning to anyone who was once a fan.

1 minute ago, Zeoinx said:

A lot of these replys, and topics just proves more and more a video I once saw, starwars used to be a place where people used to get together because they LIKED starwars, but now, its nothing but a "marketing" word, that has lost all value, especially the one of community and enjoyment. Starwars is indeed dead, or at the very least, its real meaning to anyone who was once a fan.

For you, maybe. As you would like others not to speak for you, please do not speak for others.

21 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, you're saying it is in FFG's best interest for me to take my considerable "here, take my money" XWM enthusiasm and channel it into the purchase of products NOT made by FFG?

Meanwhile, they should concentrate on the group of players who whines about excessive expenditures on the game (that are all optional, mind you) to win plastic chits.

Not to mention that the TFA Core box was a pitiful $30 outlay to actually improve the game with a better designed damage deck.

You're right. I have the game mechanics. I can make up anything I want and FFG can get $0 from me.

OTOH, while tournament players buy 1 or 2 copies of a ship to make a tournament list, I was buying 4-10 copies for casual play. So while I might have been a Rare Specimen, I might be worth 4-5 tournament players for Quantity Purchased. And there are other players like this.

I'm saying they have to take into consideration their market. Every product they release is a risk, granted a very small one with that STAR WARS brand on it, and it has to make back the money they put into developing the expansion, the cost to make the mold for the ships, the labor, shipping, etc, etc. Their main focus is on the tournament play, it is visual it means people playing at their LFGSs and keeping the game in the public's eye and hopefully drawing in more players. Of course playing casual games there too helps draw others and helps build communities. But is it fair to say that people have been drawn to the game seeing it played how it is 'supposed to be played'? That isn't all you can do with the game naturally, but it is how the game is designed.

And the TFA Core Set was a small cost, but didn't change the fact that we got long threads about people complaining about it until FFG decided to say either could be used shortly there after.

3 minutes ago, Zeoinx said:

A lot of these replys, and topics just proves more and more a video I once saw, starwars used to be a place where people used to get together because they LIKED starwars, but now, its nothing but a "marketing" word, that has lost all value, especially the one of community and enjoyment. Starwars is indeed dead, or at the very least, its real meaning to anyone who was once a fan.

People always have their own opinions and are passionate about it. And people still do get together because they still do LIKE Star Wars, its one of the reasons we see people painting ships, forming groups, and making amazing community works. Besides, even if people argue about it isn't like that should take away your own personal enjoyment of it.

39 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

I'm saying they have to take into consideration their market.

And I'm saying they are missing one.

Just as a thought experiment, let's say we wanted to box my "Fly Casual" adventure, above. It's a 300 point game, but we want to make it mass-market accessible.

And we want a good price point, say $50-60. And we want good publicity.

So, it needs to drop on Black Friday, in time for Christmas gift time. I'm going to assume that the Core Set is sold separately, because our adventure box can't have everything.

So what DOES it have?

A. The adventure scenario, obviously.

B. One or two models. Maybe an A-Wing and the Lambda.

C. QuickBuild cards for all the pilots needed to play the scenario. You know the player has an X-Wing and 2 TIE/lns from the core set. But maybe toss in a couple of QB TIE Interceptor pilots. Then provide cardboard tokens (ala the Senator's Shuttle from Core 1.0) for enough pilots (generics) to run the match. This keeps the cost of the kit down, makes it almost self-contained, and with any luck encourages new players to get the 3-D ships for a better game experience .

The cost of the Core + the Adventure boxes is not out of the price point for a new board game. It's a X-mas X-wing release, so scoop the crowd looking for a gift.

It's not meant to attract the tournament crowd. It's to scoop new players, first and foremost. And it gives casual players something new to try. Again, make the Tydirium Shuttle card Epic Only/non-tournament for experienced XWM players to get something to use after they have played the adventure through, and include a QB version of it to boot for people who just want to be at that level.

Super casuals QB it like any other one-shot game.

Casuals get a new card, a new experience, and something they can play with family easily. And maybe a DIY jumping off point.

Tournament players can try something casual, or ignore the whole bloody thing.

Lastly, the whole thing is a teaser. Mostly it is cardboard and QB, so that if a player wants to take the next step he/she will want to head back to the store and buy the actual ships represented in the adventure game so they can begin a new and exciting career in XWM.

Heck, the next step would in fact be to play the exact same game using the App to build "real" game ships. See if they can escape that rabbit hole!!

Not to nitpick, but i havent heard anyone say that a cargo ship SHOULD beat a superiority fighter.

What ive heard a lot of is questions about the stats/effectiveness of ships in game versus their cost in game. For example a few days ago i posted comparing the defender vs VCX-100, and whethrr 3 agility and mobility was more valuable than 1 extra red, 7 hp and crew slots

In a realistic scenario Star Wars would be a little different:

"From the falcons cockpit Han sees a blip on the horizon, then fatally explodes...

Later, as the noob recruit who toggled the "FIRE HOMING MISSILE" switch cruises by the wreckage, he wonders why he bothered with flight school at all"

Roll credits

8 hours ago, Zeoinx said:

BULL ****, Casuals are CONSTANTLY creating communities, its just not YOUR community of grind to the teeth numbers only doesnt matter what is on top of the peg, do whatever it takes to win community that only cares if they win. Its not going to a brick and motor store to pay to play a game, instead they create communities inside there homes, having fun together and then bringing in more people as word of mouth spreads through family and friends. Just because players dont support your "Official Tournament" and throw money at THAT PARTICULAR game mode, doesnt mean they dont support the FFG game or create communities. Thats backwards thinking, almost to the point that you are basically just saying "I'm a elitist, and only people that throw money constantly at said product should be able to play" That type of thinking is what is wrong with modern gaming, its no longer about the game being fun and enjoyable for all and that type of thinking needs to be CUT out.

You might as well start waving a red and black flag spouting rude propaganda against those people, chasing them from there homes with torches and pitch forks, saying "Stay away from our game"

Thing is, I'm a big advocate of cinematic play. I love the scenarios and I've run or played almost all the missions going (with the exception of the epic ship campaigns)

I have squads because I like them or I feel they 'fit' not because they win; my preferred squad for a long time has been a quintet of TIE strikers.

Nor do I 'throw money at the game' - my main expenditure at or for our store community is food, drink, event entries tickets (if playing) and printing (if not)

...And yet:

• I rarely get to play cinematic play scenarios.
  • Not because I'm not bothered about playing them (I often ask if people are interested) but because the other players at my store enjoy straight competitive games more, and get more games when they do (because it's a 1 hour 'standard' game versus often quite a bit longer in a scenario).
  • Also - unless you tailor your squad to a scenario (and sometimes even if you do) a lot of the FFG cinematic play missions aren't always especially.....fair?
  • I've organised a couple of cinematic play events, and it takes very little effort to break most missions unless you put some safety barriers in squad building - but even then it's hard to do because players have to be able to tailor their squads because the different missions often use different size squads.
• I do enjoy competitive events. Not because I'm bothered about winning but because a game night kit, or store championship, is a chance for me to play lots of games in one go. And frankly a lot of friends - many of whom I've met via organised play - are the same.
  • Are there 'tournament jerks'? Yes. But a lot, lot less than in other organised play events I've been to. I've been to both Campaign Weekends and Throne Of Skulls tournaments run by GW and every X-wing event I've been to has an atmosphere far more like the former than the latter. People are friendly, approachable, more than willing to 'tone down' the nasty stuff with new players, and often pretty generous with both loaning and outright gifting stuff to them.

I am hoping we get themed events, and more than that I am hoping we get scenario events formally supported rather than just me doing a game night kit.

Probably the most useful way of doing this is quick builds. Being able to provide a 'sanctioned' set of quick builds instantly makes scenarios easier to balance and faster to run, and lets you easily define "illegal" builds that are suitable for the game (like an escape-the-death-star falcon with everyone one it).

It is simple really. If casual expansions would be financially viable FFG would put them out already. Especially given the fact that they already did one casual expansion for Star Wars Armada - The Corellian Conflict.
But I don't think that is the case - look at epic ships expansions for X-Wing, to lure people to buy them those expansions included very powerful cards for standard, tournament play (C3PO, Palpatine, R3-A2, R5-P9). Most people bought those ships for the cards (and in my case) plastic stands. Of course there are people that play epic but they are minority.

9 hours ago, Zeoinx said:

BULL ****, Casuals are CONSTANTLY creating communities, its just not YOUR community of grind to the teeth numbers only doesnt matter what is on top of the peg, do whatever it takes to win community that only cares if they win. Its not going to a brick and motor store to pay to play a game, instead they create communities inside there homes, having fun together and then bringing in more people as word of mouth spreads through family and friends. Just because players dont support your "Official Tournament" and throw money at THAT PARTICULAR game mode, doesnt mean they dont support the FFG game or create communities. Thats backwards thinking, almost to the point that you are basically just saying "I'm a elitist, and only people that throw money constantly at said product should be able to play" That type of thinking is what is wrong with modern gaming, its no longer about the game being fun and enjoyable for all and that type of thinking needs to be CUT out.

You might as well start waving a red and black flag spouting rude propaganda against those people, chasing them from there homes with torches and pitch forks, saying "Stay away from our game"

First off, I never said that casual players are worse than competitive players. X-Wing is a hobby and anyone has a right to play this game in a way that brings him fun in his free time.

With competitve community of X-Wing players I got guarantee that they will positively influence X-Wing - look at List Juggler, YASB, Tabletop Simulator or Vassal League. Look at countless streams of tournaments and games. Competitive players make lively, passionate community that draw people into this game. And you know why?

Because let's face it - overwhelming majority of people love competition; it is not an accident that most games (be it unplugged or computer) try to have a shot at being e-sport viable. It is not an accident that overwhelming majority of multiplayer games got ranking, MMR systems and matchmaking league play.

Competition is a powerful drawing tool and this is the reason why it takes the center spotlight in X-Wing.

Also your reasoning that wanting to win is not equal to having fun makes no sense. For me hard competition, thrill of it, trying to make good working list and tournament rivalry are the best aspects of X-Wing and those things are fun, especially when you made into the top cut or win the tournament.

1 hour ago, Embir82 said:

Because let's face it - overwhelming majority of people love competition    

Citation needed here.

Personally I have no dog in this fight. People can play how they want to play and I would never dream of dictating that to them.

Want to play casual with your own home brewed rules? Go for it.

Want to play competitive and chase tournament winnings? More power to you.

I play neither of these. When I play X-wing I play it at home. I play casual standard games with a few close friends and family. We build lists we thing look good but are not super competitive but stick with the rules as printed. We have food, drinks and a good laugh. I'm not saying its the best way to play but it works for me. I play games to relax and have fun. Stressing out in a competitive environment or struggling to balance home brewed rules are not my cup of tea.

I'd like to think that is representative of a number of players of the game. Can't we all just get along? There is enough room for all of us.

As a competitive Armada player the 3x3 100/6 tournament format of X-wing abolutely turns me off from playing the game competitively. I lofe the scale and topic of X-wing but the game is actually rather bad at projecting Star Wars to me in the 100/6 setting. I play homebrew campaigns and HOtAC when I need my fix - keeping to ships from the movies and restricting upgrades that is not fitting for the time period or non-thematic (what the **** is palpatine doing in a menial dogfight? He should be plotting in a SSD somewhere). I would love an official “casual” expansion along Correlian conflict or HotAC for X-wing. And I would love an official objective based competitive format that called for list optimized for something else than beating another list in a clean boxing ring format.

9 hours ago, Zeoinx said:

A lot of these replys, and topics just proves more and more a video I once saw, starwars used to be a place where people used to get together because they LIKED starwars, but now, its nothing but a "marketing" word, that has lost all value, especially the one of community and enjoyment. Starwars is indeed dead, or at the very least, its real meaning to anyone who was once a fan.

Holy Overreaction, Batman!

So some people disagreed with you on the internet, and now the whole Star Wars community is DEEEEEAAAADD!!!!1111 ?

I think it's probably fair to say that the vast majority of people are here because they love Star Wars. I know I do. I'm nearly 30 and I still can't get enough. FFG gave me a game where I get to play as Wedge Antilles fighting my mate playing as Soontir Fel. Do you know how happy that makes me?

But no one medium has all the strengths and weaknesses of every other. Star Wars is played out in dozens of different ways: films, books, comics, RPGS, video games and yes, tabletop games.

There's some obvious overlap between a lot of these, but the experiences will not be the same. No book will ever have the visuals of a movie, no movie will ever have the narrative depth of a book. No one Star Wars medium will over have the open-ended, audience driven freedom and creativity of an RPG, and no RPG will ever have the pre-generated worlds and detailed visual sandbox of a video game.

KotOR is an amazing example of this, as it is based heavily on the d20 Saga RPG system. But obviously some concessions had to be made to that RPG to make it work within the mechanics of a game engine. You can't just do anything you want, you can't have a dynamic system making up a story as you go along and that story won't be massively different from player to player. The supporting characters are always the same, and you can't choose to kill them or whatever any time you like.

Why am I rambling on about this? Because the point is that any medium must make concessions to this idea of fluid, background 'lore' to get it to fit within its systems. X-Wing is a competitive game. Don't give me any of that 'casual' or 'tournament' nonsense, it is. The game is built to be played by two people in competition with each other to win a game. It's as simple as that. For a competitive game to be fun, it needs to be fair.

That means it needs a robust set of rules, an underlying framework of easily translated mechanics and, yes, stats and for there to be a carefully maintained balance between all these interconnected parts.

That balance must take precedence over lore considerations for the game to be fun for all involved parties.

That is all I, and a large number of others in this thread have been saying. Nothing more. Lore is important, of course it is. The game should reflect that Darth Vader is the best pilot in the galaxy. The game is more fun when Luke Skywalker is as fun and competitive to fly as you feel he should be from the films.

The X-Wing should be a capable all rounder, the TIE Fighter should be agile but flimsy, the Y-Wing should feel solid but slow.

The game needs to feel like Star Wars, absolutely.

But to get all uppity when FFG don't translate an element of the lore literally, or in a way you personally don't like for whatever reason just so that they can better fit it into a balanced game system is nothing short of ludicrous. Everything about all this lore is completely made up, the idea that FFG can't take a few creative liberties with it to make a fun game is absolutely baffling to me.

Beyond that, I'm still not sure I understand what your complaint even is .

What about 2e feels like it's not in keeping with the lore to you? How have FFG sacrificed 'lore' for gameplay? Why is that specific example actually even bad for the game?

10 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I Don’t Know, Fly Casual

An “Epic Plus” Mission 

....

Good lord that's a lot of text.

And it's all just for a specific scenario? It's just flying from point A to point B and back again without getting to close to a PS5+ pilot?

K...

Have you seen the amount of text you've had to cram in that Captured Shuttle card, by the way? It's an absolute mess. And it's just to facilitate one scenario.

In anything other than specific scenario, what you've got is basically the Captured TIE card. Y'know, the one barely anybody used because it sucked.

I think you really need to ask yourself if there's anything of universal value in such an expansion. What benefit would I actually be getting in a normal deathmatch or another casual scenario that, say, involves destroying a specific target from a 25+ (1e) point ship that can't attack?

Other than a ridiculous, NPE point fortress of course.

Is an upgrade card that wordy and complicated really going to be a fun addition to an hour long game?

This doesn't seem all that different from the scenarios that used to come in the large ship boxes, tbh. And nobody played those.

I just don't really see the value in making this a whole expansion.

9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

And we want a good price point, say $50-60. And we want good publicity.

That's a lot of money for a box of mostly cardboard that requires you and a friend to have 600 1e points worth of minis.

9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

It's not meant to attract the tournament crowd. It's to scoop new players, first and foremost.

I'm confused, it's for new players but it also requires them to have 300 points worth of ships each?

Look, I'm not saying a box of scenarios with unique rules and specifically balanced quick build cards, wouldn't be cool. It would! And sure, throw in a unique paintjob for a model too. But if it's for new or casual players it needs to be limited to core set + free choice of two or three other expansions per player.

And I still don't see the value of a Tydirium as a standalone expansion. Standalone expansions need to be universal. They need to have content that's balanced for standard games and tournament play, and be good jumping off points for more casual play. I don't see how you make a Tydirium that, on a universal level, makes a meaningful contribution in that regard.

Also, faction identity is important. Or else, why bother delineating factions at all? It's been a cornerstone of faction based games since, idk, the original Dune RTSes that factions should feel different so that you get a different experience when you play as each one.

Lastly, I have no idea how this deteriorated into a 'casuals' vs 'tournament' **** fling.

For the record, I think there's absolutely equal place for both, and casual settings are easily some of the most fun you can have with the game. But even a casual game needs fair and balanced rules and mechanics to be fun for both sides (or even just to ensure a balance between challenge and fun for co-operative players, like the pages of rules and careful balancing done for HotAC). Those mechanics are important to the strengths of a game than blind adherence to the lore.

2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Good lord that's a lot of text.

Well, how else would I describe the the scenario? "Ready. Set. Fight."??

Quote

And it's all just for a specific scenario? It's just flying from point A to point B and back again without getting to close to a PS5+ pilot?

K...

And what is 400/6? Fight to the death again? K. . .

Quote

what you've got is basically the Captured TIE card. Y'know, the one barely anybody used because it sucked.

It sucked in 100/6 because there is nothing more to do than kill each other. So hiding out doesn't make sense because you need that ship shooting. The card sucks because of the simplistic scenario of 100/6.

And I intentionally wrote it to be like Capture TIE so that as a DIY card, I know it's balanced.

Quote

Is an upgrade card that wordy and complicated really going to be a fun addition to an hour long game ?

This doesn't seem all that different from the scenarios that used to come in the large ship boxes, tbh. And nobody played those.

It would take more than an hour, and wrong.

Quote

I'm confused, it's for new players but it also requires them to have 300 points worth of ships each?

So, there was the whole part where I talked about QB cards and cardboard tokens. . .

Quote

Look, I'm not saying a box of scenarios with unique rules and specifically balanced quick build cards, wouldn't be cool. It would!

And yet, all you're doing is ripping my idea down.

Quote

I just don't really see the value in making this a whole expansion.

They need to have content that's balanced for standard games and tournament play,

Lastly, I have no idea how this deteriorated into a 'casuals' vs 'tournament' **** fling.

Of course you don't. Because, as it typical, you can't conceive that other people might find the repetition of sandbox deathmatch boring as fudge. Therefore, you also think that any product produced by FFG must directly lead a player into "standard" play, because (being "standard") it is the One True Way to play the game.

Then when casuals walk away from the game, you think it is the player, not the game, that is at fault.

And what really steams me is that, despite the fact that tournament players have their version of of the game , they seem to think that no one else deserves a product from FFG that might play a little in the Star Wars universe lest it dilute the purity of The Almighty Standard Play.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Probably the most useful way of doing this is quick builds. Being able to provide a 'sanctioned' set of quick builds instantly makes scenarios easier to balance and faster to run, and lets you easily define "illegal" builds that are suitable for the game (like an escape-the-death-star falcon with everyone one it).

I truly hope this is the reason for quickbuilds. Basically making a game within the game. Like the Armada campaign as far as one box deal, make quick builds for a scenario and if they do their homework right you aren’t breaking anything. A board game alternative to game night squads is very welcome. No extra models though, you want models buy xpacs, kinda burnt out on models inflating prices for what is essentially a cardboard upgrade.

25 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

And what really steams me is that, despite the fact that tournament players have their version of of the game , they seem to think that no one else deserves a product from FFG that might play a little in the Star Wars universe lest it dilute the purity of The Almighty Standard Play.

Nobody deserves a product. Nobody. Not tournament players, not casuals, nothing. That is the entire problem with everything you've said in this thread, it acts as though a company has some sort of obligation to a certain type of consumer. FFG doesn't.

It takes a lot of people getting out there and voicing an opinion that they'd like to pay for something for a company to produce a product for them, not one person yelling really loudly.

29 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

That is the entire problem with everything you've said in this thread, it acts as though a company has some sort of obligation to a certain type of consumer. FFG doesn't.

It takes a lot of people getting out there and voicing an opinion that they'd like to pay for something for a company to produce a product for them, not one person yelling really loudly.

No, the entire problem with this entire thread is that @Zeoinx and I would like the see this game take a slightly different tack, and lots of other people come in here and shout us down because they like the game where it is. As if, somehow, adding a new dimension to the game would ruin it for them.

Movements start with a single guy on a soapbox, so don't try to intimate that I'm behaving inappropriately and should just shut up.

3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

No, the entire problem with this entire thread is that @Zeoinx and I would like the see this game take a slightly different tack, and lots of other people come in here and shout us down because they like the game where it is.

Movements start with a single guy on a soapbox, so don't try to intimate that I'm behaving inappropriately and should just shut up.

I quoted you, directly, about deserving a product. Nobody deserves it. Also, I never said the problem with the thread, just the things you keep saying in it. The idea that there is a population out there that wants a scenario-based Star Wars space fighter miniatures game is fine. People suggesting that perhaps FFG is missing out on some money is fine. Intimating that FFG has some sort of obligation to cater to those people is not fine.

23 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

I truly hope this is the reason for quickbuilds. Basically making a game within the game. Like the Armada campaign as far as one box deal, make quick builds for a scenario and if they do their homework right you aren’t breaking anything. A board game alternative to game night squads is very welcome. No extra models though, you want models buy xpacs, kinda burnt out on models inflating prices for what is essentially a cardboard upgrade.

Indeed, it becomes an easy sell to create something using this approach, and it's less heartache on the person balancing it.

41 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Of course you don't. Because, as it typical, you can't conceive that other people might find the repetition of sandbox deathmatch boring as fudge. Therefore, you also think that any product produced by FFG must directly lead a player into "standard" play, because (being "standard") it is the One True Way to play the game.

Then when casuals walk away from the game, you think it is the player, not the game, that is at fault.

And what really steams me is that, despite the fact that tournament players have their version of of the game , they seem to think that no one else deserves a product from FFG that might play a little in the Star Wars universe lest it dilute the purity of The Almighty Standard Play.

Please cease assuming people's beliefs. Because most of the time, when you do, you'll find you're wrong.

3 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

This doesn't seem all that different from the scenarios that used to come in the large ship boxes, tbh. And nobody played those.

I just don't really see the value in making this a whole expansion.

The scenarios, I did play, and I know others who did. They could do with a bit of work on balance in some cases, but a lot of that is issues with scenarios not being....I guess 'future-proofed' is the right word?

Political Escort became a joke, for example, at the height of the four-ship-rebel stuff; because - whether you play cinematic scenarios or a straight dogfight - you can't readily 'uncreate' them and asking someone not to take an option that's tailor-made for the role of the defenders in the scenario is somewhat unrealistic.

Having a permissible list of quick build cards that limit the available resources as part of the scenario gives you flexibility in picking your squad (which is part of the fun) but doesn't make the whole wall come crashing down when something released for standard play that has an untested interaction with the mechanics of a scenario comes out. Maul coming out is another good example. In 'normal' play, he was good-but-not-obscenely broken (use as part of cumulatively broken Ghost/Fenn squads aside), but on a CR-90 corvette he was so unfeasibly broken as to actually require FFG to get off their backsides and issue an epic play FAQ for the first time in...what?.....three years?

Rather than making arguments back and forth about whether there is, or isn't, a market for what you might call a 'cinematic play' expansion, I would suggest looking to the Armada boards (they're three above us in the miniatures section).

Armada has a cinematic play expansion - the Corellian Conflict. I'm not sure how well it's done compared to the Armada community as a whole, and that might be a fair question - how many people have (a) bought a copy and (b) have actually played in the campaign.

(Not to determine whether it's 'deserved' but whether it's a worthwhile proposition for FFG to produce)

I, for one, would very much like to see it, and I've talked about a 'battle of scarif' expansion box for a long time.

What would be in such a box?

Well....for starters, I would recommend not aiming it at bigger-than-standard-sized games. Because not everyone - tournament player, casual player, or either - has the time or money to invest in epic play.

Scenarios don't have to be all-evening and requiring a full squadron of TIE fighters to play, because that cuts heavily into the number of people capable of hosting it - and increases the effort for what is not always a commensurate increase in fun. By all means have one or two 'epic' missions, but the bulk of them should be 'normal' sized; because that lets someone who doesn't want to play tournaments get a core set, a couple of fighters, a cinematic play box, and still get all the stuff they need. That instantly increases the potential market massively.

Equally, I would steal a bit of best practice from Babylon 5 wars - one of the best campaigns the game did was the battle of the line. This was done as a large number of linked 'normal size' scenarios rather than one huge game, and it just worked so much better - and was much more suited for either playing over several weeks (because each individual 'chunk' could be done easily finished in a brief game night) and/or because it easily suited many-on-many campaigns (because in a given evening two or more pairs of players could each play "Fighter Screen Intercept" and the book told you how to aggregate the results)

Yes, before a rebuttal, I understand the comment about card tokens...

13 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Then provide cardboard tokens (ala the Senator's Shuttle from Core 1.0) for enough pilots (generics) to run the match.

...Possible. But unlikely, just because X-wing is very invested - as a business model - in you buying chunks of plastic. Tokens for non-ship stuff, fine, or even ships-that-don't-exist-outside-the-scenario (like the squadmate or senator's shuttle). That said, Imperial Assault did produce skirmish tokens of stuff not yet out but that said , never for generic goons, only for subsequently-to-get-their-own-xpac heroes and villains which frankly were necessary purchases even for campaign play because of the stuff they then came with. I'm not objecting to card 'TIE Fighter Tokens' but I'm just observing that'd be a very hard sell to FFG's bean-counters.

• A cardboard-only expansion can work. But making it sell - which is important - has to follow the rule of 'everyone wants a piece of it'.
• This is why the epic ships (I suspect) all had at least one 'killer' card and/or were often also used to sell 'fixes' for ships (rebel transport/x-wing, raider/TIE advanced, C-ROC/scyk). Which is not what we're wanting.
• Personally, I would suggest pilots and upgrade cards useable in scenarios and standard play aren't stupid, but - as noted above - using quick builds and 'permitted ship' lists to lock down what you can use in a given scenario.
• I would strongly advise having multiple scenarios in the box, The linked mini-campaigns in the epic ships are good fun - their main problem is the sheer cost of the epic ship expansions compared to buying a full wave of stuff, for a single ship that you can't use outside epic play games.
  • By comparison, a cardboard-only expansion like the corellian conflict lets you add a lot of stuff to the 'core game' by adding new pilots, titles, etc to existing ships.
  • Correllian campaign also provides new scenarios which are also useful for standard games - less relevant where the generic game is basically a 'deathmatch' - but it also included new obstacles. Adding in a nice new swath of different obstructions would be very interesting (let's say; gas/dust clouds and maybe some cargo containers?)
• It needs to feel like a 'premium product' to work - campaign maps and so on.

I will, as an aside, be interested to see what is in the core set. Because the first edition core sets did have scenarios in them. Seeing whether the new core sets do as well will be a big determiner whether it's something FFG still see as important to their business model. Mission control's rather ignominious fate suggests it isn't, unfortunately.

On 8/21/2018 at 1:42 AM, GreenDragoon said:

I don't understand. Are you saying that Vader should be able to solo 12 A-Wings because he could do so in the lore?

You joke, but I am confident that 2.0 Vader could solo at least 200 points worth of A-Wings with the right pilot.

2 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

You joke, but I am confident that 2.0 Vader could solo at least 200 points worth of A-Wings with the right pilot. 

I only played one game so far, and my Soontir lost his stealth device at range 3 (so 5 dice!) with lone wolf and a focus available against a shot from Arvel. Granted, Vader has more HP and will be incredibly hard to block. But 4 A-wings should have an easy time, definitely 200pts .

The most expensive reasonable Vader is 102pts and can ignore obstacles to dodge much, sure. But 6 arcs can cover a lot, and Vader still only gets 1 focus - and usually just a force token to add on defense. I'm not saying blocking him is easy, but once it happens he basically lost.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, how else would I describe the the scenario? "Ready. Set. Fight."??

It's called the elevator pitch, my man. If you can't boil your concept down into a few, informative sentences you might need to ask whether your concept is really all that worthwhile.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

And yet, all you're doing is ripping my idea down.

No.

I don't think your specific Tydirium scenario is all that good, but that's not really something to get into here.

I also don't think the idea of a $50 box with one or two scenarios that require 600 (1e) points worth of ships is a good buy for new player at all and I said as much.

And I don't think the idea of padding the scenarios out with flat cardboard tokens for those who don't have the ships is a good idea ether.

Beyond that, all I really said was that I don't think the specific idea of the Rebel Shuttle Tydirium as a Millennium Falcon or Slave One style, normal standalone expansion has enough value to be worth it to enough people.

As @Magnus Grendel said, you might want to be a little more careful about assuming other people's beliefs because I actually think a Corellian Conflict / HotAC hybrid style campaign box could be a fantastic addition to the game. I'm all for other ways of playing it.

But any such attempt needs to be way more carefully built and balanced than the old 1e scenario inserts or the average homebrew. And if you're going to continue the game as being adversarial, i.e one player competing against the other to win each scenario, you need to avoid NPEs like "you can't shoot this specific ship until you fulfil xyz arbitrary criteria".

Armada style objectives would be a great addition for casual formats, and I'd love to see some asymmetric formats like 'attack and defend'.

The way to do that is precisely not to introduce casual specific model expansions, however. When a ship comes out, it needs to be immediately and viably applicable to the standard game format.

Note as well that the standard game format is not just the 'boring, deathmatch staple of tournaments', it is literally the way you are told to play the game in the core set. It is the basis for the entire balance system.

If something fits outside that format, it must be very clearly defined as such. Epic ****ed this up by including highly competitive standard format cards. Alternative format sets should not include things of high value to the standard format, and standard releases (i.e ship model expansion packs) should not include content that is solely to be used in alternative formats.

A big campaign box could come with alternative specific titles, pilots and upgrades for existing ships - that would be fine. But you'd also need to either make those cards generic enough that they can be used on the player's choice of ship, or be very very clear about which expansions are required to maximise your returns from the alternate format box. IMO Corellian Conflict could have been better about this. It comes with squadron cards for all of the original starfighters, but no additional models. So if you want the most out of the box, you need to have already bought the relevant expansions (and probably in sufficient numbers too). I feel the release information could have been a bit clearer on that topic.

38 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Well....for starters, I would recommend not aiming it at bigger-than-standard-sized games. Because not everyone - tournament player, casual player, or either - has the time or money to invest in epic play.

Scenarios don't have to be all-evening and requiring a full squadron of TIE fighters to play, because that cuts heavily into the number of people capable of hosting it - and increases the effort for what is not always a commensurate increase in fun. By all means have one or two 'epic' missions, but the bulk of them should be 'normal' sized; because that lets someone who doesn't want to play tournaments get a core set, a couple of fighters, a cinematic play box, and still get all the stuff they need. That instantly increases the potential market massively.

These are big points. Definitely agree with them.

Options for expansion if you the time and ships, but a box full of stuff requiring hours of gameplay and dozens of models is going to be a hard sell to a lot of people who simply don't have that sort of time and money.