Lando is defending and rerolls his black die into a white die which comes up "block + evade".
The attacker plays tough luck to remove the results of Lando's die.
Lando plays cheat to win to switch his dice to a dodge.

What are the defense results?

What comes to mind as possibiities:

1) A reroll removes the old results, then adds the new results. So, the defense die results from the reroll were added to the attack/defense pool so that Tough Luck can remove them, and thus changing the die face afterwards has no effect, because die results are only added once.

or

2) Cheat to Win retroactively changes the defense die results that get added to the attack/defense pool, and thus Tough Luck also retroactively removes the new results.

or

3) There is no logic to adding dice results to the attack/defense results.

Okay so Tough Luck removes that die's result, if the result is then changed, its still a result on that die and is removed regardless of when it was changed

1 minute ago, Kalandros said:

Tough Luck removes the dice so there's no dice to actually set a result to..

Do you have a card in some other language?

the results were removed so in my understanding even if you change the results they are still removed.

You could argue that the die added the results Block/Evade. Removing those results is minus Block/Evade. Changing the results could be minus Block/Evade and add Dodge.

I don't think there is actually enough in the rules to come to a decision on this without making assumptions.

On a separate but related note, does the attacker in this scenario have to play Tough Luck before the defender plays Cheat to Win? I assume yes since they appear to be the same trigger and you follow the attacker/defender order.

8 minutes ago, DTDanix said:

On a separate but related note, does the attacker in this scenario have to play Tough Luck before the defender plays Cheat to Win? I assume yes since they appear to be the same trigger and you follow the attacker/defender order.

Yes, and that creates the situation. It doesn't happen when Gambler/Cheat to Win is used while attacking.

Hmmmm...cheating always causes problems because it's not in the rules, ladies and gentlemen

the attacker would have to use cheat first before the defender plays tough luck because that is the order thing go.

3 hours ago, Zagnoroth said:

the attacker would have to use cheat first before the defender plays tough luck because that is the order thing go.

Right, but we're talking about the opposite here, where you're cheating on defense.

If I had to go super nitpicky. I'm going to say you can use cheat to win to dodge defensively.

You re roll using gambler. The attacker plays Tough Luck to remove the dice results from the pool. Then the card has completed its effect, and goes to the discard pile. Then cheat to win takes a blank dice and changes it to the dodge facing.

I'd argue that since tough luck is not a continuous effect, but a one off effect, its effect of removing results ends after it has been used to remove a result.

It goes "okay, I will remove your block and evade. Now, I am done", ceases its effect, then goes to the discard pile. Then cheat to win kicks in, takes a blank dice and changes it to the result of its choice.

The common sense opponents would argue there is no die to change to the dodge. (Tough Luck removed it) not that the rules are always common sense

Doesn't remove the die though, just removes the results. Wish it did remove the, be a lot clearer

Since your were the one who rerolled you need to play your refill mods first so tough luck would be played after cheat.

5 minutes ago, Zagnoroth said:

Since your were the one who rerolled you need to play your refill mods first so tough luck would be played after cheat.

Note that Cheat to Win and Tough Luck are not reroll abilities - they do not trigger from the reroll step, they trigger off rerolls themselves.

Timing conflict resolution order doesn't change depending on whose ability created the trigger condition. During attacks it's core/mission rules, attacker (and friendly to attacker) abilities, defender (and friendly to defender) abilities.

Ok, thank you. I still thing that my post from way before is right which I stated that if the results are removed, if you change them they would still be removed.

Not that we've solved the first question, but let's say Lando rerolls a black die into *block block*, gets tough lucked and cheats into 3 blocks. Does the tough luck count as -2 blocks after cheat to win? or does tough luck go away after the die is cheated?

I would think remove that result and "add a negative amount of the result" are different enough so that if the ruling was you do remove a result you would get the full other result.

I'm still under the impression that tough luck doesn't hit until dice results are settled, and dice aren't "settled" until after the re-roll step, which means it would still get Cheat to Win's change.

"Use after your opponent rerolls a die. Remove that die's result from the results."

The effect is triggered after your opponent rerolls a die. Since there's no special condition mentioned as to when the effect ends, it is in effect until the attack is resolved. The effect also does not specifically mention that it ONLY refers to the result of the reroll - the reroll is the trigger, that's it. I.e., that die's result is removed from the results until the attack is resolved.

25 minutes ago, Fourtytwo said:

"Use after your opponent rerolls a die. Remove that die's result from the results."

The effect is triggered after your opponent rerolls a die. Since there's no special condition mentioned as to when the effect ends, it is in effect until the attack is resolved. The effect also does not specifically mention that it ONLY refers to the result of the reroll - the reroll is the trigger, that's it. I.e., that die's result is removed from the results until the attack is resolved.

Why does this command cards effect linger though? Why does this card check the dice you play it on, remove it's results, but keep checking the dice even after the effect has ended and the card has gone to the discard pile? If this card was meant to stop a dice altogether, wouldn't it be phrased like Element of Surprise? Wouldn't it be worded like this?

"Use after an opponent re-rolls a dice, remove that dice from the attack or defense pool."

In my opinion Cheat to Win is changing something that doesn't exist anymore, so there's nothing to change.

4 minutes ago, Golan Trevize said:

In my opinion Cheat to Win is changing something that doesn't exist anymore, so there's nothing to change.

Why can't you change nothing to something? By this logic, if Lando rolled a blank on his re-roll into a white dice, he'd not be able to play this card.

If cheat to win said exchange a result for another result, then I'd be onboard.

18 minutes ago, LordDraigo1 said:

Why does this command cards effect linger though? Why does this card check the dice you play it on, remove it's results, but keep checking the dice even after the effect has ended and the card has gone to the discard pile? If this card was meant to stop a dice altogether, wouldn't it be phrased like Element of Surprise? Wouldn't it be worded like this?

"Use after an opponent re-rolls a dice, remove that dice from the attack or defense pool." 

Element of Surprise removes a die before it is rolled and triggers at a stage where a new defense die might come into play afterwards like with Stealth Tactics or Brace for Impact. Tough Luck Comes into play after a die is rerolled. Once the die is rerolled, its results count towards the resolution of the attack. Look at it like this: A die is a generator of results, nothing more. Once the results are generated, it doesn't matter if the generator of those results is still there or not. Hence "remove that die's results", not "remove that die", the latter of which would be pointless after it has been rolled and generated its results.

I don't mind being wrong, but any points made to the contrary are not very convincing and plausible to me.

10 minutes ago, LordDraigo1 said:

Why ca  n't you change nothing to something? By this logic, if Lando rolled a blank on his re-roll into a white dice, he'd not be able to play this card.

A 'blanc' is still a result on the white defense die.

Cheat to win mentions specifically "Change that die's result" - which I pointed out is in no way dependant on there being the die or not once it is generated - and Tough Luck specifically removes "that die's results", so they're gone - there are no results for Cheat to Win to change any more.

I hope this helps to illustrate my take on the issue.

A die with results removed can still have effects - see Tress's ability regarding what you "rolled".

I agree, things would be much simpler if Tough Luck removed a die completely.

13 minutes ago, DTDanix said:

A die with results removed can still have effects - see Tress's ability regarding what you "rolled"  .

But is 'what you rolled' really the same as 'results'?

Boy, this needs to be clarified. What then about Ezra's Much to Learn special ability, especially the way it works with another friendly Force User within 3 spaces, just to make this a bit more fun.