Move on over and make room for ....ok you won’t be moving much. The rest of us will just finally, finally ...ok maybe just maybe...get some much needed space on this forum for large point play after all these years. Hopefully, we will get our own dedicated space on the forum for “epic” or whatever FF ends up calling throwing down a bunch of ships and having a blast in the spirit of the cinematic experience. A dedicated space will help move the game forward because more plastic being sold just helps all those 400 pointers we so lovingly have been subsidizing to keep this game alive. For those unaware, 60-70% of the plastic in Armada is sold to those who will never bring their plastic to a tournament let alone a game store.

I get many of you tournament players etc. will not be moved by the people coming out of the woodwork to discuss fleet engagements vs. the quick skirmish engagements you will continue to prefer. I just hope you will be more accommodating than you have in the past since so many of you feared the “death” of your version of the game. There is a symbiotic relationship that I hope you will embrace. I a d other older gamers who have formed private game groups appreciate the time in our youth spent in a FLGS which only made possible our private play in our personal gamerooms—both big and small.

I don’t pretend to know much about how the SSD will play out except it appears to offer the possibility of the end of this forum being complete dominated by the fanatical devotion to the 400 point discussion. Granted this is more a tournament player oriented site, people attempting to get an edge or sorts, but that doesn’t represent the population as a whole who play the game casually. Many games of Armada, if not actually more than not, are played at higher points across the world because the causal players usually don’t bother going to the FLGS because our gamegroups often have a member or two with a small to huge gamerooms conforming to our own creature comforts: music, our sports game on in the background, beer, no annoying people, a grill, clean up the games on our own time, etc.

Hopefully, the tournament player won’t begrudge the possible small, small shift in conversations since us casual players are the ones who keep this game (most of FF games) alive. Now we appreciate your part as well. I rather enjoy so,e of your bather and gloom and doom reports from time to time. Most of the causal players don’t prescribe to the meager 400 point limitations and we house ruled the heck out of demolisher, Rhymer, and Transports, and anything “we feel”that ruins our concept of a fleet engagent. We aren’t out to “break the game” with gimmicks to win but more to reenact the cinematic experience we grew up watching. I so get the trill many of you feel coming up with ways to win through cleaver designs, but for the rest of us if it does smell time Star Wars —like 6 transports etc—it doesn’t past muster with us. May of us just build two huge fleets that look like they will be equal and say to the opposite player, “Pick.”

In the past, there has been little reason for most of the casual large point player base to visit YOUR forum. I am fairly certain only one out of the eight regular players in my group has ever gone to this fourrum because they think there is too little be be gained from all the restrictive 400 point talk—this was before the Transport Craze of 2016. If the SSD does nothing more than start more discussions focused on point levels in the area of 600-800 points, then I will be happy because I think more casual players and graybeards will engage. More engagement just might meanmore ships will ultimately get released. That is good for all of us. Maybe more casual lists and discussions will appear of they aren’t run out of town by the rest of you not willing to share your space. Maybe. FF would be wise to finally give us our own space, but FF never seems to be “very” wise so I won’t hold my breath. They are great at creating games, but wow they sure do have a penchant for not getting the most out of their games. The money left on the table make us MBAs cringe.

Now to all you enjoying 400 points, continue ...enjoy. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. To each his/her own. Feast and be merry. Just maybe now you’ll be open to sharing some small space, maybe 1/15 posts or so, to a more grand, longer version of Armada that so many of us have enjoyed for so long—those who were instrumental to keeping your smaller in size (not necessarily small in fun) version going. Now, I get many of don’t have the time due to work and family, or maybe the patience in this fast paced world, for the more grand experience of large battles that look and feel more cinematic. Again, I also get it is more about doing the best with what you are given...cool, I get it. You don’t have to convert. You can enjoy those small fleet engagements for decades to come, but now my brothers and sisters who have so long been shunned, who do have the time and patience for what we find to be the more enjoyable way, might finally step out an of the shadows and darkness to discuss our version of this fun game.

What is funny that I never like the concept of the SSD until now. Or maybe it will turn out that for those without shelf space the SSD is like a boat and that it is better for a friend to own.

The post is a joke by the way. Just in case some...

19 minutes ago, 1977Valarian said:

The post is a joke by the way. Just in case some...

Can you explain what the humour base is...?

4 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Can you explain what the humour base is...?

I am with Gink. Wtf did I just skim through.

I am confused, but as you so elegantly say, to each their own. Happy to read more houserules and 1000 pt battle reports.

Excuse me sir, but YV-666's and Lancers do not make up 60-70% of our plastic!

10 hours ago, 1977Valarian said:

The post is a joke by the way. Just in case some...

I have trouble believing this, seeing as you did not include it in the original post and that is very much not the tone you strike, even accounting for Poe's Law.

No one on here discourages house-ruling or your own game setups. We as a rule of thumb simply find it uninteresting for a variety of reasons that have been expressed time and time again. I'm sorry your group does not appreciate the depth of Armada knowledge to be mined on these forums, but that is their decision.

Re: "Casuals are the only reason the game is alive", I'll be blunt. Prove it.

Regardless of the intent of the original post, I think there's a lot of merit in a subforum for non-standard game formats and all associated discussion.

The majority of content in these forums gets posted on the front page, which cycles discussions out of rotation pretty quickly.

@Gilded. If you haven’t been paying attention to this forum and FF’s limited statements for years that is not an issue or your fault. Only those who read and watch FF released statements, methodically read this forum, and other FF forums regularly understand some of basic demographic and economic principles (Armada, Imperial Assault, and x-wing forum posts will sometimes talk about the state of armada) . While this might be mainly qualitative observation over the course of years, if you add the sprinkles given from FF and some sales data combined with reports of play group size—or the lack there of—the reality is more than telling. I can’t fault you for not seeing this because you have to spend hours groking the situation of years—not something one should do! I have 8 hours a day to spare M-F, so I have time to WASTE. Again, even as an interested and keen observer of Armada, I can’t get you caught up on all the thousand signs and posts nor would you be that interested I imagine. If you want to believe tournament players are even somewhat close to the majority, feel free. It just isn’t so in the vast, vast majority of towns, rural areas, metropolitan cities or their vast suburbs.

The skinny:

It has been said time and time again by FF with regard to X-wing that tournament players only make up 35-40% of their sales on their best years. The actual number since x-wing got more boring for the majority in the last year, year and a half and the number most likely slid to 20%...30% at best. (the game has had dips and peaks like after the phantom was released,etc.).

Given that Armada is difficult to store, move, takes up more space, and is far more expensive, simple basic logic dictates that more old timers 35+ are going to gravitate to this longer, more expensive game that requires much more space. Those with established careers tend, TEND, to have the time, resources, larger dwellings and more money than the younger x-wing crowd to consistently make Armada a more enjoyable experience. For example, I support ALL three Armada tables at my house in my upstairs gameroom sharing space with three other larger tables reserved for historical miniatures. Then there is my downstairs eurogamimg room in classic wood surrounding. Cover porch, grill, stocked beer, and a garden with an observatory and out door chess set in back. Also, when people come over their lists are set up and they don’t have to break down making a 40 minute drive for some worth it. While I might be on the one end of the spectrum of gameroom and devoted space, I know many others with at least devoted 20x20’ bonus rooms, basements, or converted garages for just gaming, or mostly gaming. This is where the serious gamers of decades mostly play. We don’t like dirty FLGS bathrooms etc. and want certain amenities. Not that others aren’t “serious” gamers, just that we are frantically devoted to gaming and spend 2-4K a year on it and hours playing, painting, and drinking. While there are plenty of others spending 2k+ on gaming they are very often stuck going to FLGS for competition for a host of reasons.

The distribution of younger players gravitating toward x-wing vs. Armada is clear based on the small number of past discussions FF has had at various moments. There is some cross over for sure. Some of the old time Armada casual players will go to a x-wing tournament, but not an Armada because they play a much different style of Armada—mainly wanting to be comfortable in their own homes.

Sales data of Armada from coolstuff et al in 2016 was also telling. Number one selling Miniature game only represented in a select number of game store, gaming groups in the nation also tells you a lot of what you need to know. If you have been following the sad complaints of people for the past 3 to 3.5 years as I have, it is clear that Armada is only popular in select areas. No, the limited tickets at Gencon was not a fair representation as some people on this forum pointed out, but the qualitative observations on a “primarily” tournament forum like this reveal the obvious. Plus, the years of “Armada is Dying” and support for that idea is also telling. Yes, it died in most gamestores...true, but not in our homes. In most areas, the groups are underground like in my two metropolitan areas of more than a million people each that I follow and travel between. There are two to five store pick-up games per year out of 6 gamestores from what I have gathered. However, other gamestore pockets have 6-12 regular players, but that is a rare, rare thing. Portland and several other areas are clearly a place to play Armada which is great for those younger players.

Note/Advice: If you want to play ANY game that has a fulfilling ruleset allowing for continued drama almost every time, the, ”If you build it they will come.” What I mean is two things—what a great legend Hall of game game designer who pass always reminded a bunch of up convention game hosts:

The goal is simple make sure your opponent(s)has fun. Create an experience that people want to return to again and again and your game, no matter how old, will always survive. Conventions and places are full of people playing 30-40 year old games that have stood up to the test of time. Almost every one of these games has been house ruled so that it does indeed survive.

People will travel hundreds of miles for a great experience. For example, twice a year and people fly (1200 miles) and even drive (500 miles) pay for a hotel just to play the old an epic Global Axis & Allies over two long days at this one small but well kitted out club house that is rented out by a friend of mine. My friend does the work organizing and picking up a lot of its cost and people make the pilgrimage. They fit in side games of twilight imperium, scythe, and several games of Secret Hitler late into the night with libations. If you want Armada to survive in 400 point form or more, you can. Something you love and other people love only does if you let it.

Play on players...play on.

Hmm :peeking into the spacesuit helmet: Is that you, Admiral Nelson?

On 8/20/2018 at 1:54 PM, 1977Valarian said:

I don’t pretend to know much about how the SSD will play out except it appears to offer the possibility of the end of this forum being complete dominated by the fanatical devotion to the 400 point discussion.

I very seriously doubt it.

So long as the tournament scene is alive, and it it definitely still is, I think the dominant discussion will always lean towards standard format. Especially considering that the SSD expansion includes a version which fits in a standard 400 point format. While I will agree that the numbers are more likely in favor of casual play, as our local group has more casual players than competitive (Or had, many of them have stepped up to the plate to attempt tournaments since wave 6/7 dropped), I do not believe that the overall discussion will change.

That said, I don't think this forum has ever been harsh to players who discuss larger formats granted that discussion doesn't center around raising the legal tournament value. I myself have discussed several local events where we have run 600 800 or 1200 point games with various house rules, and ended up sharing many interesting stories without negativity from the community.

400 points is the competitive standard. So long as it is, and so long as competitive play remains active, I feel it will always be the center of conversation here. It's the common ground we all share. That's the whole point of a standard.

As to the discussions being fanatical about the 400 point cap, again, the only time I have ever seen people get nasty is if the discussion begins to lean towards changing the tournament cap, which doesn't seem to be what you're implying.

1977 called, it wants it’s angst back

On 8/20/2018 at 10:54 AM, 1977Valarian said:

fanatical devotion

Where?

On 8/20/2018 at 10:54 AM, 1977Valarian said:

I just hope you will be more accommodating than you have in the past

When?

On 8/20/2018 at 10:54 AM, 1977Valarian said:

we

Who? Casual players at large don’t seem likely to organize and elect a spokesperson.

On 8/20/2018 at 10:56 AM, 1977Valarian said:

The post is a joke

What about the second one?

On 8/20/2018 at 10:56 AM, 1977Valarian said:

The post

Lastly, why? Just why.

5 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I very seriously doubt it.

So long as the tournament scene is alive, and it it definitely still is, I think the dominant discussion will always lean towards standard format. Especially considering that the SSD expansion includes a version which fits in a standard 400 point format. While I will agree that the numbers are more likely in favor of casual play, as our local group has more casual players than competitive (Or had, many of them have stepped up to the plate to attempt tournaments since wave 6/7 dropped), I do not believe that the overall discussion will change.

That said, I don't think this forum has ever been harsh to players who discuss larger formats granted that discussion doesn't center around raising the legal tournament value. I myself have discussed several local events where we have run 600 800 or 1200 point games with various house rules, and ended up sharing many interesting stories without negativity from the community.

400 points is the competitive standard. So long as it is, and so long as competitive play remains active, I feel it will always be the center of conversation here. It's the common ground we all share. That's the whole point of a standard.

As to the discussions being fanatical about the 400 point cap, again, the only time I have ever seen people get nasty is if the discussion begins to lean towards changing the tournament cap, which doesn't seem to be what you're implying.

Ain't that the beautiful thing about standards @Darth Sanguis? There are so many to choose from!

I am going to respond to this post with the seriousness I believe it deserves. However, as that varies sentence to sentence, so will my reply. After all, a troll as well played as this one that caught me deserves an equally effort-filled reply.

12 hours ago, 1977Valarian said:

@Gilded.

My name is right there. Like, it's literally the post above this when you wrote it. Are you too lazy to either correct your phone or type my full name so you can tag me? It's GiledPallaeon, like this character you may have heard of. I didn't take his full name, one because I thought it was arrogant, and for two because I could never grow a mustache nearly so glorious.

If you haven’t been paying attention to this forum and FF’s limited statements for years that is not an issue or your fault.

You're either not very methodical or very new to this to not recognize me. You also seem to conflate posting with actually knowing what you're talking about, which of late on this forum is no longer a safe assumption.

Only those who read and watch FF released statements, methodically read this forum, and other FF forums regularly understand some of basic demographic and economic principles (Armada, Imperial Assault, and x-wing forum posts will sometimes talk about the state of armada).

Excuse me while I go ask the keeper for Atlanta United how the Falcons should run their wide receivers this season.

While this might be mainly qualitative observation over the course of years, if you add the sprinkles given from FF and some sales data

You mean those figures FFG doesn't release? Yeah, they're super useful.

combined with reports of play group size—or the lack there of—the reality is more than telling. I can’t fault you for not seeing this because you have to spend hours groking the situation of years—not something one should do! I have 8 hours a day to spare M-F, so I have time to WASTE.

You said it, not me.

Again, even as an interested and keen observer of Armada, I can’t get you caught up on all the thousand signs and posts nor would you be that interested I imagine. If you want to believe tournament players are even somewhat close to the majority, feel free. It just isn’t so in the vast, vast majority of towns, rural areas, metropolitan cities or their vast suburbs.

I said prove it, not repeat it. This is not data, it's not even a whole anecdote, it's an unsupported assertion of the first order. I can say that Star Trek is the more popular franchise to watch regularly, but I can back that up with sales data and download data. This is malarkey.

The skinny:

It has been said time and time again by FF with regard to X-wing that tournament players only make up 35-40% of their sales on their best years.

Your assertion, your burden of proof. Links please, and so help me God if they're to some half-wit with twenty posts on the X-wing forums who said "So my friend talked to his friend who eavesdropped on someone he thought was Alex Davy at Gencon"...

The actual number since x-wing got more boring for the majority in the last year, year and a half and the number most likely slid to 20%...30% at best. (the game has had dips and peaks like after the phantom was released,etc.).

This fails the laugh test hilariously, pun intended. If play is getting more boring and more stratified, shouldn't the share of tournament players go up? If it's boring and no fun to play, only the people most invested in the game, which are by and large the tournament and competitive types, are going to be the ones playing it. I'd ask for a link, but you even admit that's a WAG, not even a EWAG.

Given that Armada is difficult to store, move, takes up more space, and is far more expensive, simple basic logic dictates that more old timers 35+ are going to gravitate to this longer, more expensive game that requires much more space.

Compared to most minis games on the market, none of those descriptors are true. 3x6 or bigger is the standard or small; X-wing is unusual for working with less. And Armada is a steal. I cannot count the number of folks I've had shocked in a good way when they realized they could buy into everything for Armada for less than one WH40K army.

Those with established careers tend, TEND, to have the time, resources, larger dwellings and more money than the younger x-wing crowd to consistently make Armada a more enjoyable experience. For example, I support ALL three Armada tables at my house in my upstairs gameroom sharing space with three other larger tables reserved for historical miniatures. Then there is my downstairs eurogamimg room in classic wood surrounding. Cover porch, grill, stocked beer, and a garden with an observatory and out door chess set in back. Also, when people come over their lists are set up and they don’t have to break down making a 40 minute drive for some worth it. While I might be on the one end of the spectrum of gameroom and devoted space, I know many others with at least devoted 20x20’ bonus rooms, basements, or converted garages for just gaming, or mostly gaming. This is where the serious gamers of decades mostly play. We don’t like dirty FLGS bathrooms etc. and want certain amenities. Not that others aren’t “serious” gamers, just that we are frantically devoted to gaming and spend 2-4K a year on it and hours playing, painting, and drinking. While there are plenty of others spending 2k+ on gaming they are very often stuck going to FLGS for competition for a host of reasons.

This is the most entitled paragraph I've read in months. You are asserting because you are old, possessed of a house much larger than you need, and disposable cash best compared to Pablo Escobar that every player who plays Armada is like that? Are you daft? I'm happy for you that you can support the games you play that way, and I hope one day I'll be in a comparable position, but this is staggering that your worldview and your understanding of who plays these games and how it's played is this.

Oh, and while I'm at it, don't paint all FLGS with that brush. Sure, every area has a game store or two that's dingy, that's a bit run-down, where the staff aren't ideal, and they're caught in that vicious cycle where because that's how they are but because that's how they are they can't raise the funds to change that fact. Those stores exist, and they are unfortunately common. HOWEVER, they are not all FLGS's, and if you are half as worldly and half as knowledgeable of how the rest of the country, let alone the world, plays, you'd know that. My home store is very well-maintained, with large spaces, HVAC systems that work very well, and amenities and facilities that put most moderately priced restaurants to shame. I won't stand for this tarring and feathering with a country-wide brush.

The distribution of younger players gravitating toward x-wing vs. Armada is clear based on the small number of past discussions FF has had at various moments.

Link or data?

There is some cross over for sure. Some of the old time Armada casual players will go to a x-wing tournament, but not an Armada because they play a much different style of Armada—mainly wanting to be comfortable in their own homes.

By all means play this way, play any way that you enjoy, but quit making unfounded assertions about the rest of us so you can feel secure about being a condescending, rude, and generally uninviting elitist from your wood-paneled tower.

Sales data of Armada from coolstuff et al in 2016 was also telling. Number one selling Miniature game only represented in a select number of game store, gaming groups in the nation also tells you a lot of what you need to know.

Link or data? I'm going to start just copying and pasting it instead of retyping it, I'm saying it so much.

If you have been following the sad complaints of people for the past 3 to 3.5 years as I have, it is clear that Armada is only popular in select areas.

If you had been following the debates that closely, you'd have seen my commentary on those issues. But we already went over this.

No, the limited tickets at Gencon was not a fair representation as some people on this forum pointed out, but the qualitative observations on a “primarily” tournament forum like this reveal the obvious.

Which is what, exactly?

Plus, the years of “Armada is Dying” and support for that idea is also telling.

You do realize that's a meme right? It's a joke, which you would know if you had been following the forum for three or four years, because within that time was the famous AdmiralNelson meltdown that started that joke. You didn't even have to be there to see a post that got a lot of attention (A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO) warning that while for old-timers like me it was pretty funny, people who didn't pay enough attention would think all these serious, consistent players thought they were serious. It was a warning about Poe's Law. So really, I suppose I should thank you because now I can use this as a great example of that.

Yes, it died in most gamestores...true, but not in our homes. In most areas, the groups are underground like in my two metropolitan areas of more than a million people each that I follow and travel between. There are two to five store pick-up games per year out of 6 gamestores from what I have gathered. However, other gamestore pockets have 6-12 regular players, but that is a rare, rare thing.

Link or data

Portland and several other areas are clearly a place to play Armada which is great for those younger players.

I thought you said only people who play Armada are older professionals who can afford not one but two GIGANTIC rooms in their homes for the different types of games they have their friends come over to enjoy without having to suffer through "dingy FLGS's". Which is it?

Note/Advice: If you want to play ANY game that has a fulfilling ruleset allowing for continued drama almost every time, the, ”If you build it they will come.” What I mean is two things—what a great legend Hall of game game designer who pass always reminded a bunch of up convention game hosts:

The goal is simple make sure your opponent(s)has fun. Create an experience that people want to return to again and again and your game, no matter how old, will always survive. Conventions and places are full of people playing 30-40 year old games that have stood up to the test of time. Almost every one of these games has been house ruled so that it does indeed survive.

Link to the original talk if it has been recorded on video would be nice. In any case, I wasn't aware that chess or Scrabble or Monopoly had been surviving on the backs of houserules. Risk, Wargame, checkers, backgammon, the list could go on. The important thing for the survival of a game after the publisher abandons it is a passionate community that will continue to enjoy it after it has passed on. Luckily for Armada, not only do we have a passionate community but we have a publisher who is continuing to bet on the future of the game to the tune of thousands of R&D dollars required to field a model so big when I did the calculations for injection-molding the ship I computed it should be on the wrong side of the possible/impossible line. I'm a mechanical engineering student at a major university that emphasizes manufacturing in our degree program. Trust me, the SSD is **** near magic, and that means FFG dumped enough money into it I really doubt it's going anywhere.

People will travel hundreds of miles for a great experience. For example, twice a year and people fly (1200 miles) and even drive (500 miles) pay for a hotel just to play the old an epic Global Axis & Allies over two long days at this one small but well kitted out club house that is rented out by a friend of mine. My friend does the work organizing and picking up a lot of its cost and people make the pilgrimage. They fit in side games of twilight imperium, scythe, and several games of Secret Hitler late into the night with libations.

Cool story bro, what's your point? I know what your overall point is, what's the point of this aside other than humble-bragging you know someone with their **** together?

If you want Armada to survive in 400 point form or more, you can.

Of course I want Armada to go on. Everyone serious on this forum does, we wouldn't be here if we didn't. What I'm trying to get you to realize is the world extends past your nose and past your driveway. I would love to have another forum on here to discuss Armada in larger formats, but railing against the part of the community that chooses to spend its time communicating with itself and sharing its knowledge, even if it has some twists that you don't like isn't stupid, it's pants-on-head backwards. We the serious competitive players who love the game so much we have devoted significant personal time and energy to become skilled at something we enjoy could be your fiercest allies in protecting the game if FFG ever leaves it behind (something I remain highly skeptical they'll do willingly any time in the foreseeable future). Realize that fact, and quit trying to make enemies of your best allies.

Something you love and other people love only does if you let it.

Genuine question here, what the **** do you mean here?

Play on players...play on.

Finally something we agree on.

Dafuq.

@1977Valarian,

My two Imperial credits, for what they're worth.

I am one of those older players you speak of. I'm 52, grew up on Avalon Hill, WH40K and Fantasy, etc.

I am also fairly well off financially, own my home, plenty of disposable income, etc. My garage is my man cave, with book lined walls, curio displays, and my own 6x4 gaming table. So I guess I fit what you describe to a T.

With all that said....I play mostly at my flgs. The store I go to is kept immaculate by the owner; there's a good Chinese restaurant two doors down. But the most important part is, by playing there, I get to promote the game, meet new people, and try to get more players into it.

Furthermore, I am primarily a tourney player. Why? Because I'm highly competitive, plus see everything above about meeting new people. Yes, me and a few friends play in my garage as well. But the majority, by FAR, of my games happen at my local store, and in a tourney setting.

Do I think the actual majority of players are casual....more than likely. But the ones that keep the game going are the fanatically dedicated, competitive, always here and active in the community ones, not the ones that just buy a core set, Chimaera because cool, and play one every three months.

Oh, and yes I love very large games....which I'll be sure to play at the store, so I meet more potential players, and help support my local store, so I can keep playing there. I'm getting two SSDs when it comes out, and can't wait to put those puppies down on the table and watch people go gaga over them. ?

@GiledPallaeon .....well said. Well said.

2 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Dafuq.

Calm down HardedHell.

Most games forums have a small sub-section devoted to house rules or appreciate formats, etc. But the vast majority of topics will be about standard play.

It's how a game is designed, with a core rule set in mind. People can and do talk about their home brew stuff, but it's simply not as interesting to people who weren't there. Just like hearing stories about a DnD campaign you weren't in isn't very interesting.

And if I'm trying to learn chess, reading about your game where each player had 4 queens isn't super useful.

Anyway I need to get back to my pile of yatchs now.

this word salad needs croutons