Armor Insert is a 0 HP armor attachment that can go in any piece of clothing that has Soak 1 or less, and Defense 0. It has the base effect of:

"Turns any article of clothing into armored clothing (see page 184 of the Age of Rebellion Core Rulebook). Characters can notice the inclusion of armor inserts in clothing by making an Average (Difficulty 2) Perception check." (Cyphers and Masks, p.57).

So, let's start there. Other than the reduced Difficulty of detecting the plating compared to the listed Armored Clothing (which a Mod to the Armor Insert can address), does the clothing now have all of the properties of Armored Clothing? IOW, would it:

• Now have Soak 1 (if it started with Soak 0)? [I think Yes]
• Now have Defense 1? [I think Yes]
• Now have Encumbrance 3? [I think Yes]
• Now have 1 HP for additional attachments? [I think Not Sure]
• Now have a base price of 1,000 credits with Rarity 6? [I think No]

Once those points are covered, the Mods for the Armor Insert (1 Soak +1, 1 Defense +1, and 1 Difficulty 3 to detect plates) make this a great way to get up to Soak 2, Defense 2 on a budget by applying this to Heavy Clothing.

Input?

Uh, based on what you're saying, the Armor Inserts in the FFG Star Wars rules are NOTHING like the Armor Inserts in real life.

So with that aside, we have two mutually exclusive statements here.

"Turns any article into 'Armored Clothing'" should mean that if you slap this on ANYTHING from a T-Shirt, to a Bikini top, Parka, or any Adverse Environmental Suit, then those clothes automatically convert to the stats for "Armored Clothing:" Def 1, Soak 1, Enc 3, HP 1, Rarity 6.

But then you're throwing out this statement that Armor Inserts do Soak +1, Def +1, and 1 Difficulty to spot.

So by a strict interpretation of these rules (as outlined in the original post) EVERY Piece of armor that you slap this onto would have the stats: Soak 2, Def 2, Enc 3, HP 1, & 1 Difficulty to spot.

(Ahem: My Wookie gets a fuscia bikini top and he's going to install an Armor Insert . . . no wait! It's a bikini top and Armor Inserts are 0 HP. Can I get TWO? That's Soak 3, Def 3, and 2 difficulty to notice? But pft. Who cares? It's a Fuscia Bikini top! Everyone's going to notice THAT! No wait, he's a FSE with a rank in Indistinguishable, so NO one will notice him. ).

However, if I were to permit this item in my Star Wars game, I'd just use the +1 Soak, +1 Def on ANY armor. (And ALL of my Stormtroopers would be sporting armor inserts).

My thinking is that adding these to Heavy Clothing gets you Soak 1 (can be Modded to Soak 2), Defense 1 (can be Modded to Defense 2) for Enc 3 and it might add 1 HP. The Armor Insert is Difficulty 2 to detect (can be Modded to Difficulty 3). This is pretty impressive for 50 credits (Heavy Clothing) plus 450 credits (Armor Insert) plus the cost of the Mods.

If you have a good Mechanics guy, this is likely to be a cheap but effective set-up, particularly if you don't use the broken crafting rules to build supersuits from scratch.

Actually, since the Armor Insert appears to provide Soak 1 with the base attachment, I'd opt for Cargo Clothing (from Desperate Allies) over Heavy Clothing as a base. It's cheaper and it lets you store up to three pieces of gear (Enc 1 or less) without contributing toward ET.

I'd love to use this with Noble Regalia to really wrap up my James Bond style. Is Lando the Star Wars equivalent?

As long as it includes a stylish cape ...

My take on this attachment is that it just adds a defense and the difficulty to notice, but doesn't add 1 Soak. It seems like this could be the greatest attachment and should be used on every armor. It almost seems too good, am I wrong?

11 minutes ago, Lukey84 said:

My take on this attachment is that it just adds a defense and the difficulty to notice, but doesn't add 1 Soak. It seems like this could be the greatest attachment and should be used on every armor. It almost seems too good, am I wrong?

It would only "add 1 Soak" if the armor originally starts with Soak 0. For this reason, I suggest using it with Cargo Clothing instead of Heavy Clothing.

Is it "almost too good" and something everybody will use? Only for boosting low-end protective wear. It does nothing for the guys that want heavy wear.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

It would only "add 1 Soak" if the armor originally starts with Soak 0. For this reason, I suggest using it with Cargo Clothing instead of Heavy Clothing.

Is it "almost too good" and something everybody will use? Only for boosting low-end protective wear. It does nothing for the guys that want heavy wear.

I'd actually want to put it in banal apparel. Fully mod the insert and then use the 1 hp to get superior armor customization to get 3 soak and 2 defense and essentially a free rank of indistinguishable (note that the banal apparel game mechanic is equivalent to rather then actually being a few rank of indistinguishable). The bit about reinforced clothing (armor crafting) that I didn't like was I couldn't get banal apparel as a "special embellishment" so I'd got with the +1 advantage to negotiation instead. But it's pretty comparable to maxed out reinforced clothing, same soak, +1 defense, -2 hp, can't get sealable but don't have the hp to get vacuum sealed and superior for maxed out soak, unless an artisan added 2 hp. I'll call the lack of special embellishment vs the benefit you can from clothing a wash.

7 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'd actually want to put it in banal apparel. Fully mod the insert and then use the 1 hp to get superior armor customization to get 3 soak and 2 defense and essentially a free rank of indistinguishable (note that the banal apparel game mechanic is equivalent to rather then actually being a few rank of indistinguishable). The bit about reinforced clothing (armor crafting) that I didn't like was I couldn't get banal apparel as a "special embellishment" so I'd got with the +1 advantage to negotiation instead. But it's pretty comparable to maxed out reinforced clothing, same soak, +1 defense, -2 hp, can't get sealable but don't have the hp to get vacuum sealed and superior for maxed out soak, unless an artisan added 2 hp. I'll call the lack of special embellishment vs the benefit you can from clothing a wash.

I know you like the high-powered stuff, but I tend to suggest avoiding Superior Customization for almost everything since the cost is so high and, in my games, gear tends to be expendable (there's a whole lot of "you can't take it with you when you X" and X can happen when you least expect it).

31 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I know you like the high-powered stuff, but I tend to suggest avoiding Superior Customization for almost everything since the cost is so high and, in my games, gear tends to be expendable (there's a whole lot of "you can't take it with you when you X" and X can happen when you least expect it).

The point of armored clothing and banal apparel is that you CAN take it with you, but it puts a hard upper limit on power level. That hard upper limit not amazeballs but it is very respectable.

I've never had a character with over 6 soak; personally I consider 7+ soak powergaming (because that's the point where you can get hit by a standard blaster pistol with a single success and not take damage. You might calibrate powergaming at 6+ soak or have played characters with 4+ brawn, if so that's a difference in opinion/playstyle.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

The point of armored clothing and banal apparel is that you CAN take it with you

Not always. Even banal apparel stands out in the heart of an Imperial base, and so does armored clothing if it's not cut to resemble an Imperial uniform.

8 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Not always. Even banal apparel stands out in the heart of an Imperial base, and so does armored clothing if it's not cut to resemble an Imperial uniform.

Only a sith deals in absolutes ? , so no not always but almost always.

I'm sure that there are a lot of civilians (e.g. contractors, families who live in on base housing) on most imperial military bases. on top secret bases like endor, not so much but that's "easy" to infiltrate (get into once you're on the planet, not remain undetected) for other reason, but unless your infiltrating to secret military bases every session it's pretty darn useful, and in that case "banal apparel" would be an extra-ordinary imperial uniform so you get the game mechanical benefit of imperials glossing over you, you need 2 sets but... it's covers you under most circumstances.

9 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'm sure that there are a lot of civilians (e.g. contractors, families who live in on base housing) on most imperial military bases.

If Star Wars were realistic, then sure, but that's not really what we see in the setting. It helps keep the target zones clear of innocents so the Rebellion can blow the crap out of them without feeling bad. I have to think that Saw must have really gone out of his way to inflict sufficient collateral damage to get pushed out of the Alliance.

Just so that everyone's on more or less the same page, here's what the Armor Inserts do as per the book (page 57):

Base Modifier: Turn any article of clothing into armored clothing (as per the item listed on page 184 of the AoR core rulebook, but it can be noticed the wearer has the armor inserts with an Average (dd) Perception check. (It's noted that the inserts can only be applied to armor with a defense no greater than 0 and a soak of 1 or less.)
Mod Options: +1 soak, +1 defense, +1 increase to the Perception check;s difficulty.

My read is that if added to something like Noble Regalia (0 soak, 0 defense), then the regalia gains soak 1 and defense 1. Heavy clothing (soak 1, defense 0) would just gain defense 1. In the paragraph above, it does cite that the attachment can be added to "any garment that is suitably large and alterable." So it'd be up to the GM if this could be added to something like Performer's Attire (or as some folks I know call it, the less insensitively named slave girl outfit) or if the inserts require at least some significant amount of body coverage.

Honestly, the Base Modifier section would have been better worded as something like "Provides any suitable article of clothing a soak value of 1 and a defense value of 1. Characters can notice the inclusion of armor inserts in clothing by making an Average (dd) Perception check."

Personally, I've got a Human Sentinel/Shien Expert whose concealing robes could benefit from the extra defense the base mod offers.

3 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Just so that everyone's on more or less the same page, here's what the Armor Inserts do as per the book (page 57):

Base Modifier: Turn any article of clothing into armored clothing (as per the item listed on page 184 of the AoR core rulebook, but it can be noticed the wearer has the armor inserts with an Average (dd) Perception check. (It's noted that the inserts can only be applied to armor with a defense no greater than 0 and a soak of 1 or less.)
Mod Options: +1 soak, +1 defense, +1 increase to the Perception check;s difficulty.

My read is that if added to something like Noble Regalia (0 soak, 0 defense), then the regalia gains soak 1 and defense 1. Heavy clothing (soak 1, defense 0) would just gain defense 1. In the paragraph above, it does cite that the attachment can be added to "any garment that is suitably large and alterable." So it'd be up to the GM if this could be added to something like Performer's Attire (or as some folks I know call it, the less insensitively named slave girl outfit) or if the inserts require at least some significant amount of body coverage.

Honestly, the Base Modifier section would have been better worded as something like "Provides any suitable article of clothing a soak value of 1 and a defense value of 1. Characters can notice the inclusion of armor inserts in clothing by making an Average (dd) Perception check."

Personally, I've got a Human Sentinel/Shien Expert whose concealing robes could benefit from the extra defense the base mod offers.

So you agree with everything I put in the original post (except that you don't cover the Enc), and your position is that it does not add the HP, right?

2 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

If Star Wars were realistic, then sure, but that's not really what we see in the setting. It helps keep the target zones clear of innocents so the Rebellion can blow the crap out of them without feeling bad. I have to think that Saw must have really gone out of his way to inflict sufficient collateral damage to get pushed out of the Alliance.

You're right of course, I have a tendency to go for "realistic science fantasy" (that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one)

Of course all but one member of my current live play gaming group is a civilian who works on an airforce base, so it works for my group

11 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Of course all but one member of my current live play gaming group is a civilian who works on an airforce base, so it works for my group

Did you ever have the Clerks debate about Luke killing the civilian workers on the Death Star?

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Did you ever have the Clerks debate about Luke killing the civilian workers on the Death Star?

If I recall correctly it was mentioned in passing once as a tongue in cheek attempt at humor, but we never engaged in the debate.

How I think I'm going to interpret it:

Add 1 Soak, 1 Defense, Hard Difficulty to detect. If the clothing already has any of those features it doesn't stack. Only compatible with clothing, anything listed with identifiers like "Armor," Armored," and "Reinforced" aren't compatible. Subject to GM interpretation of course.

And yes, I have been a little disappointed as of late, as stuff like this seems to slipping through more than usual.

On ‎8‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 2:18 PM, HappyDaze said:

Not always. Even banal apparel stands out in the heart of an Imperial base, and so does armored clothing if it's not cut to resemble an Imperial uniform.

Maybe it's just me, but I use banal apparel as a category more than a single item. So normal street clothes, commercial crewer coveralls, and an imperial tech's uniform (active duty, or contractor) would all just be different flavors of "banal apparel," the details defined upon purchase. I mean, banal in Theed and banal in Mos Eisley are going to be a bit different... and it's not like it's cost prohibitive...

One thing to note is that the core Armored Clothing takes an Average check to find but takes a thorough pat-down/search of the person. This attachment just has the Average (moddable to Hard) check without the extra qualifiers, which I'm going to interpret as being detectable without a formal search. Given this mod is cheaper and less rare than listed Armored Clothing, it needs something as a trade-off.

10 minutes ago, ZeiramMR said:

One thing to note is that the core Armored Clothing takes an Average check to find but takes a thorough pat-down/search of the person. This attachment just has the Average (moddable to Hard) check without the extra qualifiers, which I'm going to interpret as being detectable without a formal search. Given this mod is cheaper and less rare than listed Armored Clothing, it needs something as a trade-off.

The text says it turns any appropriate article of clothing into armored clothing which too me says all the rules associated with armored clothing applies. The armor inserts also has extra rules (modification, different price, installation) and a limited set of clothing (e.g. banal apparel) has extra rules that would also apply. It's more like a software repo merge commit.

If it says +1 soak why are people thinking adding this to a soak 1 item doesnt make it soak 2?

5 minutes ago, TheShard said:

If it says +1 soak why are people thinking adding this to a soak 1 item doesnt make it soak 2?

Because it doesn't say +1 soak, it just says "turns it into armored clothing." That's the problem, it's not clear on what the heck that means. Does it take on all the properties of armored clothing and lose all the properties of whatever it was? Does it add the properties of armored clothing to the clothing it's being installed on, and retain the original properties?

That's the frustration. In the same space they used to list a really confusing stat block, they could have cleaned it up an applied a comprehensible one.

As a result it makes this item really weird and not consistent. If it just turns normal clothes into armored clothing, then it's a hack, a way to bypass the cost of something else while simultaneously being 100% better because of it's mod options.

If it's supposed to be a way to add a little more protection to a disguise, why all the fancy mods that allow you to turn a set of mechanics coveralls into something rivaling heavy battle armor?

See? It's annoying because there's so may little adjustments that would have made this attachment useful, but not a must-have. Make it one-use with no mods, so you can quickly apply it to a disguise, but putting it on day-to-day clothing won't be a great help. Make it cost more so it doesn't replace armored clothing. Make it clear what it's actually supposed to do in-game as opposed to just saying it turns one thing into another...

I think that it should just say (and what I'll be house ruling it to be):

Base Modifier: The armor's protective values are reset to Soak 1 and Defense 1. Increase the Encumbrance of the armor by 2. Characters can notice the inclusion of armor inserts in clothing by making an Average (2) Perception check.

Now the Modification Options can still give us a really good set of covert armor, but at least the basic piece is firmly defined.

Note that this is essentially what Donovan spelled out except that I feel the Armor Insert should add to Encumbrance (even if it often won't matter when worn).