First impression thread for the new pack which I just picked up today, the Heart of the Elders!

Intrepid: A skill card where if you pass a will check, you get +1 to all non-will checks for the rest of the round. Guardians don't usually trigger will checks on their own like say, Mystics do... so you sort of have to commit this in the Mythos phase. Realistically that makes this very difficult to control, and it just seems like it would be hard to find the right situation for it to be useful. That said, you get +1 to almost anything you are going to do, if you pass the skill check. 2/5 because I dont like how limited the ability to play this is.

Custom Ammunition (3xp) : This really depends on if you are facing down Monster type enemies, and how many. So far, the monster type enemy cards tend to ramp up toward the end of the campaign, so this might be a good late-game add. This is worse than extra ammunition if you are not fighting Monsters, but against monster type enemies, turning all your bullets into +1 damage could be huge. Guardians are already pretty hard pressed for XP... but I can't say I'm not tempted against some of those late campaign HP tank monsters such as beast of aldebaran. 3.5/5 very tempting late campaign. Not so great as an early pickup.

Otherworldly Compass (2xp): A weird one to be sure. Unless you just started the mission or something weird happens, this should always be at least a -1 shroud because the location you just came from will be revealed. Ursula, with her emphasis on mobility and exploration, loves this, I think. A lot of potential to really reduce the shroud value on locations by a lot... But it exhausts so only once per turn. Still, cheap in terms of resource/xp cost, and potentially very useful. 3/5 solid for Ursula. 2.5/5 average for others.

Expose Weakness (3xp): I get the idea of the seeker helping the guardian out here... But I'm sorry, I didn't like the level-1 version of this card and I don't like this either. I mean, sure, you could set up an epic shotgun blast... but the Guardian can probably make that happen by themselves, you're just making it a tad easier for them. I cant see this as useful for anything except a shotgun attack either. And only one single attack! Too much XP, and just.... ugh. 1/5 poor.

Lola Santiago (3xp): This is more like what a 3xp card should look like. Lola gives a bonus to two different stats, and that's amazing. And those two stats happen to be lore and agility, meaning she buffs the Lockpicks up to crazytown. And if you have money (rogues often do) you can exhaust her and spend resources to get a clue automatically. Considering on harder difficulties you're usually spending some cash on Streetwise or something if you are trying to get a clue, I think Lola is awesome. Lockpicks for an easy clue, Lola for an easy second clue, this is great. Her only downside is that she shares the coveted Rogue ally slot with the likes of Leo de Lucca and Dario. 4.5/5, excellent, some tough choices to make here.

Olive McBride: Someone else already gave an excellent analysis on this card. The short story is: she's not worth it in most situations. Maybe if you are Jim, or more likely Father Mateo. 2/5. Not great. In the right deck... average? Are you playing her instead of Arcane Initiate? No, probably not.

Defiance (2xp): Level-0 defiance is such awful trash they had to try again I guess. This is much better and oddly enough, it does combo with Olive McBride fairly well. Still, you can do that a maximum of twice per game so... still meh. Ignoring all the effects of the special symbols I think allows you to bypass the negative effects of pulling a special token on Shriveling or Rite of Seeking. That could be very good because sometimes, it's just not practical to save Rite of Seeking for my last action. Still, you're spending a skill card and your 2xp as an insurance policy against something that probably wont happen. And I hate insurance. 2/5. You will look so smart when you play this if it hits. And pretty foolish the rest of the time.

Premonition: Essentially you play this even for 0 cost and fast, and you get to know what your next token pull is going to be. I am on board with that! You can know exactly how many resources/cards you need to devote in order to ensure success. You can even use this on other players. Super useful. There could be some big plays with this card and someone going Double-or-Nothing. And the price is right too!! Good, good, good. That artwork is super grim though. 4.5/5.

Live and Learn: This seems to slot right in to the Survivor toolbag. Honestly I'm not really sure what attempting that test again means. Are you literally doing the same test? Are the modifiers the same? What if I committed skill cards from my hand, or resources? Do I get those bonuses? Can I commit more skill cards/resources on the second test, or is that not allowed? ?/5 reserving judgment until I understand this card better.

Take Heart: This is the most Survivor card that has ever been printed. A skill card, with no icons, that you commit into a test that you are failing. I mean Calvin loves this thing, and it's pretty good in any survivor. The bonuses are great, and it's not too hard to fail something. I am a fan of this artwork too. 3.5/5 for making us want to play Rabbits Foot and go fail some checks.

Against All Odds (2xp): Well, this is super thematic at least. It's only good when you have a very, very poor chance of actually succeeding. Seems like a Calvin card. 4/5 for Calvin, 1/5 for everyone else.

Trench Coat: It's a little pricey at 3 resource cost, but it's a HP sink that is neutral and no xp cost. Agility bonus is nice too. As a body slot, there is very little in the way of slot competition. I think this is good, and well worth it if you think you're going to be evading a lot. 3.5/5 for adventuring in style.

Ornate Bow (3xp): This card man... this card. First, my gripe about this is I'm not sure why we are using Agility instead of combat. I thought combat was for combat. And yes, there are some other exceptions like I've Got a Plan and Mind over Matter, but to me those had a hefty enough amount of theme to justify the switch. This doesn't. I mean... you are using agility because you are... shooting them. But with a bow, instead of a gun. So that makes it agility. or something. I'm not really sold on the nocking arrows thing either. nocking an arrow does not take all that much time. I really have to spend an action for that? OK, so on to the good: mechanically speaking this is pretty great. Particularly for rogues, and particularly particularly for Skids and Jenny. The attack bonuses here are good, the damage is huge, and rogues can spend on Streetwise if they need more agility. It's a match made in heaven. Also combos nicely with the above Trench Coat. Skids and Jenny have an additional advantage in that they have access to Venturer. Venturer saves you from the most annoying part of this card, which is having to reload it manually. And while you can't Contraband the bow, you can Contraband the venturer and have him continuously hand your ammo like a Weapons Valet in Jumanji. This card can do some serious damage. 4.5/5 I'm making a Jenny of the Jungle deck.


That about wraps it up for Heart of the Elders! Be sure to let me know your thoughts on these cards as well!

6 hours ago, awp832 said:

Ornate Bow (3xp): [...] you are using agility because you are... shooting them. But with a bow, instead of a gun

I would assume that hitting your target with a bow is way harder than with a pistol. For me it makes sense. Also, I love the flavor of this card. Also when comparing pulling the trigger of a handgun and nocking an arrow, i would consider the latter to take much more time (obviously).

1 hour ago, Raahk said:

I would assume that hitting your target with a bow is way harder than with a pistol. For me it makes sense. Also, I love the flavor of this card. Also when comparing pulling the trigger of a handgun and nocking an arrow, i would consider the latter to take much more time (obviously).

I mean OK, but agility is for evading and hiding, avoiding enemies, sneak attacks, that sort of thing. It certainly isn't "combat, but more difficult". If a bow is harder to hit with than a gun (not that it necessarily is), that should just be a combat check with a penalty to hit, surely? You're using the same principles of ballistics, target leading, choosing your opening, etc. I despise that this card uses agility.

Some of my thoughts:

Intrepid: I thought of Roland when I saw this card. Roland has a lot of other options though.

Custom Ammo: This seems near custom made as a support card for Mateo. Its a bit to expensive for most Guardians to use themselves. Zoey can pull it off, but she needs a lot of guns for it. I agree its better later in a campaign than early. Kicking a gun from 2 damage to 3 damage is generally only needed late game. Plus those end of scenario elite monsters.

Defiance & Premonition seem like they were made for each other. Not sure I would set up the combo though.

Trench Coat: I am less excited about this than I originally was. Skids and Jenny can generally kill enemies. I really think that it is best on Finn, Ursula and Wendy. The cost is rough on Wendy and Ursula.

Ornate Bow: This seems like it is best on Ursula right now. A combo with Doc Horowitz seems very strong as well. I think Rogues have better weapon options. Otherwise we are looking at a weapon that takes both hand slots and takes 2 actions to fire, one of which can trigger an AoO. The +1 damage is less exciting when you look at it that way. I don't find the whole uses Agility as a big deal. We already have cards that use Will and Intellect in a Fight check, so adding the fourth is not such a big deal.

8 hours ago, awp832 said:

Live and Learn: This seems to slot right in to the Survivor toolbag. Honestly I'm not really sure what attempting that test again means. Are you literally doing the same test? Are the modifiers the same? What if I committed skill cards from my hand, or resources? Do I get those bonuses? Can I commit more skill cards/resources on the second test, or is that not allowed? ?/5 reserving judgment until I understand this card better.

I am fairly certain it means start it over from scratch with no modifiers that just modify a single skill check from the last one you did. It is useful if you are swinging for the fences or if you have a lot of cards that give a benefit to failing. Silas could get some use out of it as well.

Ornate Bow: As I said, mechanically it's fine. I don't mind the idea of using agility in place of combat. Something like Backstab is fine. When the attack relies heavily on stealth, Agility is a reasonable thing to use. Maybe that's what they were going for, the bow being a more stealthy sort of a weapon where you are hiding and shooting with it from the trees rather than just straight up combat. But I think if that was what they were going for, they could have done it better. They could have made it target an enemy not engaged with you (maybe they didnt want to do that because that was frustrating on Springfield m1911). They could have had the action be "you hide in the shadows" and changed it to Uses (1 ambush) or something. They could have added some simple flavor text to hammer the idea home. Without any of that, it just seems like an agility gun.

It is sort of interesting on Ursula. Ursula probably wants her hands free most of the time for magnifying glass, flashlight, or compass... but sometimes it might be nice to have her drop this and help out on the boss fight. I still stand by the statement that it's better on Rogues though, because of the ability to pump with Streetwise, and also Venturer in the case of Skids or Jenny.

Live and Learn:

16 minutes ago, Jobu said:

I am fairly certain it means start it over from scratch with no modifiers that just modify a single skill check from the last one you did.

you have me scratching my head here. I still don't know what this means.

My thoughts on the cards themselves are broadly that awp832 is essentially correct about most of them, but there's some points where I disagree. So here are my thoughts, including for art and theme:

Intrepid: I think you're actually too generous here. This is the epitome of what Magic players call "magical christmas land". You can imagine a turn where you get Rotting Remains, then commit this, and then go on to ace 3 combat checks that you otherwise would have failed against the boss. But what's far more likely is you don't draw a will test at all once this enters your hand, or you fail the test anyway, or you get that Rotting Remains on a turn where all you want to do is move twice to your Seeker friend and Engage an enemy they drew. It's so situational, and not even that good for those situations. Hard pass. Seems Guardians can't catch a break with skills. Shame, because I like the theme of how the card works, and how the art works to reinforce it.

Custom Ammunition: You don't get this early but that doesn't mean the card is anything less than great. It goes under Stick to the Plan. It's a fast action 2-bullet reload. It makes the lightning gun into something capable of melting 4-health enemies in 1 action or utterly eviscerating bosses. It makes the .45 Automatic (2) into an even better option than before. Not much use for shotgun, though. You probably only want one copy of this and otherwise Extra Ammunition and/or Venturers, unless you have unlimited exp to throw around. Art is nice, and the flavour text is amusing. Winner all round.

Otherworldly Compass: I think on average you're looking at -2 shroud. It's kind of like a Flashlight, with a higher possible effect in certain circumstances, that doesn't have limited charges, but only works once a round, that costs 2 exp, that only seekers can take. In other words, it's basically useless. Seekers just want magnifying glasses as they work together with other Investigate actions and are cheaper and Fast. Roland COULD use it but it's not remotely worth 2 exp - if you're on a 2 shroud location you want to be able to investigate 3 times and clear the clues off, not investigate once and then be left relying on other options. I think it would be more useful if playing solo on Roland, but everyone else should steer clear. The art is nice, though - I'd almost take it on that basis alone if I had unlimited exp.

Expose Weakness (3): All the problems of Expose Weakness (1), with a stronger effect. But it's still completely and utterly terrible. I want to take fewer skill tests, not more. The effect only lasts for one attack. I mean sure you could use this to open up for a shotgun from your friend...but when you want to be able to use it, the enemy will have a high fight so the Intellect test is already hard to succeed at. Never, ever take this. Just as with the level 1 version, har har giant enemy crab, but the art isn't great.

Lola Santiago: I love this card. So does Finn Edwards. 2 useful stat buffs. Incredible effect. Turn resources into fast-action clue gain every round. Why yes, I would love repeatable Working a Hunch on the class that's best at getting resources. You can also use her effect midway through investigating with Flashlight to make it cheaper. It could get pricey if not used carefully, but so what? You're buying progress towards winning the game. Art is not very interesting but decent enough, but I love the flavour text.

Olive McBride: If you're building to use her in certain specific circumstances I'm sure her effect is interesting and potentially powerful, but I have no time for her. Mystics already have a lot of competition for Ally slots. She at least makes Elder Sign effects actually useful. Art and flavour text are both great, though.

Defiance (2): If you're Silas Marsh, sure, take this. Anyone else, probably not. Mystics have so much to spend exp on and like 2/3 of the time this won't do anything. It isn't useless, but compared to Counterspell it's inferior in almost every way - and you're not going to have space for both effects. As with level 0 version, art is kind of amusing and flavour text is fun and cool.

Premonition: This card looks like massive amounts of fun. You can work out exactly how much you need to pump up to pass your next test. Use it before the Investigator phase begins and then if you draw tentacles, the Seeker goes first and fails the first of their three Investigate actions, no biggie. Or the Survivor goes and investigates a 2 shroud location then uses Look What I Found!. If you get elder sign, choose whose elder sign effect is strongest. If you get a symbol token, you can use Hypnotic Gaze and guarantee reflection. It even rehabilitates Defiance (0) a little bit by allowing you to know what to call out. I'm sure there's a million other uses for this card, all of them fun. I love the art, too. Taking this in every mystic deck I make.

Live and Learn: First off, here's how this card works (to my understanding): You still resolve the effects of the failed skill test beforehand. This includes discarding skill cards committed to that test, so those don't count for the new test. You then get to repeat the exact same test with all the costs already paid, so if it was a Lockpicks test you'd get another go even though they're now exhausted, you wouldn't spend ammunition for the new test if it's an attack with a gun, you wouldn't spend resources or need to play another copy of the card if it's a test initiated by an event, etc. You can commit cards to the new test as normal.

So on that basis, the obvious comparison is with Lucky!. On the one hand, it's much less of a certainty than Lucky!. If Lucky! would let you pass an otherwise failed test, you are definitely getting that pass. Lucky also allows you to play with greater risk up until you use it: If you really need to succeed at 3 attacks and the worst token in the bag is -5, the only way to guarantee passing (aside from tentacles) is to pump each test up to +5, which is difficult if not impossible. With Lucky!, you can pump up to +3, and if you pass anyway you can pump the next test up to +3, and so on. It gives you a margin of error. On the other hand, Live and Learn works regardless of what you got for the first test. If you fail by 4, or you draw Tentacles, Lucky! doesn't help, but Live and Learn gives you another shot. It costs 0 resources, which is nice. And it works nicely with survivor cards triggered by failure. I look forward to the day I investigate, fail, Look What I Found for 2 clues, then Live and Learn to repeat the test and pass to pick up the last clue. It will be difficult to find space for both this and Lucky outside of certain investigators, but I think they both bring something to the table. Lucky! is probably the better card, just about. The art is very nondescript, though.

Take Heart: I love this card, it's going into all my survivor and Minh decks from now on. This card just gets better on higher difficulties. You can put it into a test you were going to fail anyway from the encounter deck, and then you get a lovely consolation prize (sure, you might pull elder sign and the card's wasted, but hey, you succeeded an apparently hopeless test)! It's tempting to make a useless test (e.g. investigate with 2 against a shroud 4 location) to use it and that's certainly extremely efficient, but you'll have to look at the chaos token effects to see if there's a big risk for making the unnecessary test. Works really well with Minh's unique asset as well, and obviously works really well in conjunction with Look What I Found, Dumb Luck, etc. Incidentally, I'm pretty sure this doesn't work in conjunction with Try and Try Again - effects of skill cards that read "if this test succeeds..." trigger during resolution of test results, which is the step after determining success or failure - and that's the point at which responses to the test succeeding or failing, such as Try and Try Again to pull a skill test back to your hand, are triggered. Since it's the same wording on a skill card only with "fails" rather than "succeeds" it's clearly meant to work the same way. As such, Try and Try Again would take the card out of the test before it can trigger. The art is pretty nice but not too applicable to the theme of the card. The theme of the card's mechanics is fantastic and so survivor-y, though!

Against All Odds: Meh. I don't play Calvin, so I won't be taking this. I don't think anyone else should either. Art is very exciting though, I wish it was on a card I wanted to use.

Trench Coat: It's a bit expensive but most people who want to use it won't mind. Obviously great on rogues, and Finn is taking this no questions asked. Maybe less great on survivors, who already have Leather Coat to use. Wendy, with her access to rogue resource generation and greater need to evade, might want it. Guardians would be better off with True Grit. Mystics and Seekers don't have competition for the slot, but they only want to take this if the group doesn't have someone to take the hits for them. Ursula should definitely consider it. If you want extra survivability and aren't using your chest slot for anything else, unless you really need the health or intend to evade, you'll be better off with Fine Clothes. This also makes Bulletproof Vest even less appealing. Art is fine I guess, but it's nice to have flavour text from the novellas at least!

Ornate Bow: Oh boy here we go. Leaving aside how this using Agility makes no sense, and why this bow and arrow (relic or not) is as lethal as a blast from a Lightning Gun, this card in general has caused no end of excitement. But...it's not really all that great. Barring special tricks for reloading, it's 1.5 damage per shot (a bit more because it comes pre-loaded but basically 1.5 if you're using it over time) and using it to kill things in more than 1 shot provokes AoO.

Guardians don't want it as they have better weapons and use Combat. Mystics don't want it as they have spells and use Willpower. For survivors, Yorick is a guardian secondary so he doesn't want it. As for the others: Calvin could use it I suppose, though I don't play him. I feel like he has better things to do but if he needs more killing potential it could work. Wendy could certainly make use of it, but it seems contrary to her playstyle of using lots of events. Silas Marsh is the only Survivor I would actually use it on myself, as he desperately needs more weapons since his main role is dealing with monsters, and his agility is as high as his combat (finally he has a reason for having both!).

For Seekers, only Ursula could make use of this, and she should be using her hand slots for other things. Seekers have Strange Solution, I've Got A Plan! and all manner of other cards to deal with enemies more effectively. Dr Elli Horowitz can get this out and hold it without using hand slots so that's certainly a strong effect, but you'd have to guarantee that you found it with her, as it's otherwise a bad card to have - might be a very fun playstyle but not reliable enough to make work.

So then we come to rogues. Obviously Sefina doesn't want it, and Jenny can buff her combat as much as her agility so is better off with other weapons. There's a lot of talk about how Skids should use this, but...not really. His agility is only 1 point higher than his combat. He can spend resources for an extra action to reload the bow...or he could take a Chicago Typewriter and spend the extra action on a +2 to hit, and not worry about attack of opportunity, and get synergy with Sleight of Hand and Fence. Lupara is also the better option for similar reasons. Rogues with Streetwise can buff their agility, sure, but you're spending 4 resources on the bow, 2 on an extra action, and 2 for a bonus every shot. Even rogues can't keep up with that expenditure enough to make it sustainable, and if you just want a burst of power you should get a Lupara. Skids can get Venturer to reload it, but then he isn't using Leo de Luca. Or he's investing in Charisma...and then spending more and more cards and resources and exp just to make the bow work. It's a trap. If you're using Skids to kill enemies he should load up on guardian cards, same as Yorick. The same is true for Finn, only without Venturer and with even more Illicit synergy for the Typewriter/Lupara.

So to sum up: Bad for guardians, mystics and seekers. Ursula can use it but it's an unreliable gimmick. Wendy and Silas can make use of it. It looks good for rogues, but it's a trap. As a challenge, I do wanna do a neutral-only build eventually (probably as Silas) and this will find a place there. Theme-wise, as discussed, the card mechanics make no sense. The art is OK I guess.

As a side-note, I do at least appreciate that the cards in this pack are interesting and weird enough to provoke those huge reams of analysis...

Speaking of neutral only decks... What do you think about the Ornate Bow on Lola? I haven't made a deck with her, but could see how it might be easier to use in some situations than switching roles since she can use neutral in any role (I believe).

I dunno, I have a very dim view of Lola in general. I suppose there's quite a few static buffs to agility you can combine (if you have enough copies of Charisma) but you'll still feel worse off than just taking guardian and switching to it when you need to fight, or just being Wendy and having access to all the same buffs. I really like the idea of a neutral higher-level weapon, as the vast majority of investigators can include it in their decks so it opens up space for funky deck-building, I just wish it wasn't designed the way it is.

5 hours ago, Allonym said:

I dunno, I have a very dim view of Lola in general. I suppose there's quite a few static buffs to agility you can combine (if you have enough copies of Charisma) but you'll still feel worse off than just taking guardian and switching to it when you need to fight, or just being Wendy and having access to all the same buffs. I really like the idea of a neutral higher-level weapon, as the vast majority of investigators can include it in their decks so it opens up space for funky deck-building, I just wish it wasn't designed the way it is.

That's why I was wondering though. Perhaps it opens some possibilities so you can still have a viable weapon an not go guardian with one of her roles? Just thinking out loud because I've never played her, but was curious if anyone had thoughts.

On an unrelated note - how long after a pack is released does Arkham DB usually update with the new cards?

5 hours ago, dysartes said:

On an unrelated note - how long after a pack is released does Arkham DB usually update with the new cards?

Its usually the same day or the day before.

But its just one guy, doing it gratis. He could be on vacation this week or just really busy.

5 hours ago, Jobu said:

Its usually the same day or the day before.

But its just one guy, doing it gratis. He could be on vacation this week or just really busy.

Thanks for the confirmation, Jobu - wasn't sure on the background, so didn't know what the usual track was.

Didn't mean to sound like I was crapping on the dude for the cards not being up yet, so my apologies if that was how it came across.

As to Custom Ammunition, it hasn't been mentioned yet how it synergizes with higher ammunition guns. If you can put it out before using any of the initial ammo, then you get both an additional 2 ammo and +1 to ALL your ammo. It also bears mentioning that it can be dropped on any firearm in play at the location. So your Guardian could play it on their Rogue friends Chicago Typewriter and you've suddenly got a six ammo weapon doing 4 damage per ammo.

4 hours ago, dysartes said:

Thanks for the confirmation, Jobu - wasn't sure on the background, so didn't know what the usual track was.

Didn't mean to sound like I was crapping on the dude for the cards not being up yet, so my apologies if that was how it came across. 

I didn't think you came off angry or upset, I was just explaining what situation was.

1 hour ago, mwmcintyre said:

As to Custom Ammunition, it hasn't been mentioned yet how it synergizes with higher ammunition guns. If you can put it out before using any of the initial ammo, then you get both an additional 2 ammo and +1 to ALL your ammo. It also bears mentioning that it can be dropped on any firearm in play at the location. So your Guardian could play it on their Rogue friends Chicago Typewriter and you've suddenly got a six ammo weapon doing 4 damage per ammo. 

Father Mateo can also play it on his Rogue and Guardian friends.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see more Blessed, Level 3 or less cards that help other investigators.

On 8/17/2018 at 9:53 AM, Soakman said:

Speaking of neutral only decks... What do you think about the Ornate Bow on Lola? I haven't made a deck with her, but could see how it might be easier to use in some situations than switching roles since she can use neutral in any role (I believe).

I am playing standard difficulty Carcosa blind right now with Lola. We've finished Unspeakable Oath. My Lola is doing the "kill the things" role in our play through, and we have Minh as a clue vacuum with some Strange grenades. We've been more comfortable with our roles than even our Zoey/Rex Dunwich playthrough, uh... so far. Lola can get pretty bursty with Rogue/Guardian cards, especially late game. I'm mainly using Machete and Shriveling for murder time, but I have Improvised Weapon in a pinch, because sometimes you have got to end your turn on your weapon's role. Then, Lola might suddenly drop the machete with her weakness. I've had this happen in the middle of combat. Ouch. Yes, finding ways to minimize this issue is very important to Lola. The permanent talents help because they can't leave play (and my Lola is very talented.)

But a neutral weapon like Ornate Bow? YESSSS GIMME NOAW.

On 8/17/2018 at 5:54 PM, Raahk said:

I would assume that hitting your target with a bow is way harder than with a pistol. For me it makes sense. Also, I love the flavor of this card. Also when comparing pulling the trigger of a handgun and nocking an arrow, i would consider the latter to take much more time (obviously).

Quote

Agility or nimbleness is the ability to change the body's position efficiently, and requires the integration of isolated movement skills using a combination of balance, coordination, speed, reflexes, strength, and endurance

So I would say that using Agility for the Ornate Bow is making sense for me as well.

Besides, art, theme and variation is what I like about this game more than anything.

Not sure why all the hate on Defiance. The L0 one was awful, but the new one will, for most bags, be turning 3-5 extra tokens into +0s. That makes it equivalent to about +3 icons, and potentially more because of how often skulls get big enough modifiers that they might as well be auto-fails. That's on top of the insurance factor of neutralizing the token effects, which can be awfully nasty on hard.

I don't think it's strictly inferior to Counterspell either, simply due to the cost. Mystics are often strapped for resources, and having to hold two back just in case seems about as bad as taking the "Will it or won't it" risk that you would with any other skill card.

I believe the trench coat only gives you the +1 agility while evading. So it wouldn’t aid you while using the ornate bow.

Should I do a Wendy campaign, Ornate Bow is the first card I buy with experience points.

On 8/17/2018 at 5:54 AM, Raahk said:

I would assume that hitting your target with a bow is way harder than with a pistol. For me it makes sense. Also, I love the flavor of this card. Also when comparing pulling the trigger of a handgun and nocking an arrow, i would consider the latter to take much more time (obviously).

I think of agility as synonymous with dexterity, and relate it to other games that use dex for marksmanship.

On 8/20/2018 at 10:10 AM, Buhallin said:

Not sure why all the hate on Defiance. The L0 one was awful, but the new one will, for most bags, be turning 3-5 extra tokens into +0s. That makes it equivalent to about +3 icons, and potentially more because of how often skulls get big enough modifiers that they might as well be auto-fails. That's on top of the insurance factor of neutralizing the token effects, which can be awfully nasty on hard.

I don't think it's strictly inferior to Counterspell either, simply due to the cost. Mystics are often strapped for resources, and having to hold two back just in case seems about as bad as taking the "Will it or won't it" risk that you would with any other skill card.

Dont forget that it's totally and completely broken for Silas Marsh!

On 8/17/2018 at 3:07 PM, Soakman said:

That's why I was wondering though. Perhaps it opens some possibilities so you can still have a viable weapon an not go guardian with one of [Lola's] roles? Just thinking out loud because I've never played her, but was curious if anyone had thoughts.

Well, I was able to purchase the Ornate Bow for Lola about halfway through my Carcosa Campaign. It was insanely useful. I used Survivor as a "safe" role and had a few fun cards like Will to Survive and Scrapper that couldn't be hit by my weakness. Enter Ornate Bow and Lola became a God-slayer.

It worked so well that my Seeker wife upgraded No Stone Unturned just so I could go fetch it.