Wilfred Owen said:

Just what, though? Who knows. Apart from the people that do, and they're not allowed to say anything or don't want to say anything (leaning more towards the former than the latter).

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Indeed, NDAs prevent all playtesters (myself included) from discussing anything and everything that takes part in the development process until such time as FFG announces something, and then we are allowed to comment on that.

Kage2020 said:

I'm probably convincing myself that they are planning something. Just ignore me; I'm reading too much into it.

Wilfred Owen said:

No worries. I'm afraid that, as much respect that I might have for MILLANDSON, that this is another situation where it seems that the NDA is being used for an excuse. If you cannot say something, stop telling us that you cannot say something. Unless this is some whole political thing going on between FFG and GW then stop already. Stop flim-flamming everyone.

DD. Designer Diary. Double D's. Is it as fake as the rest of the stuff that one sees in the media?

FFG and their playtesters desperately need to re-establish their trust with the fandom; their punters, or the people that buy their products. I'm not sure there is any trust any more. If I'm wrong? Then cool. I'm sure that there are going to be people nay-saying this premise, but the fact that I'm even suggesting it? Well, is that nay-sayer a playtester? A spin-doctor?

I think that the trust needs to be earned. So, earn it.

Kage

No offence Kage, but I think you are seriously overestimating how much influence the playtesters have with FFG. It's not a matter of us trusting people, it's a matter of law preventing us from talking openly, so unless you would like to pay my legal costs for being sued for breach of confidence, I think I'll just stick to my NDA.

And please, don't involve us in any argument about how FFG/GW go about their business. FFG are not us and we are not FFG, and I'd appreciate being kept out of any argument that seems to place blame on me or my fellow playtesters when company policy is nothing to do with us. We only mention as much as we are allowed to mention usually because someone asks a question involving it (generally "where are the supplements?" or "Why is RT not being supported?"). If you don't want to listen to it, you are more than capable of ignoring that post, meaning that you don't need to read it and get annoyed and those that do want to hear it can. Something, no matter how small, is better than nothing, in my opinion at least, and I'm sure others feel likewise.

Wither way, thanks for essentially telling me to shut up, despite your comment of "respect". I'll just sit in the corner now like a good boy.

Kage2020 said:

So you'd rather those of us who want to talk but are constrained by law and circumstance said nothing? You want to be left with naught but increasingly-pessimistic and essentially incorrect speculation which essentially amounts to predictions of doom?

I want to go into detail about what I've written for FFG these past months. I imagine that everyone who has worked on FFG's current projects wants to talk about the things they've seen and contributed towards. And quite frankly, it's insulting to be accused of withholding this information out of what amounts to pettiness, using the legally-binding contracts and agreements we've signed as excuses to hide behind.

the only good Xenos is a dead xenos... As it is written in the Infantryman's Uplifting primer: "Listen not to the alien, look not upon the alien, speak not unto the alien!"

Yes, because those dirty Xenos might give you fusion power plants, better water filtration technology, and not eat the souls of your children if they happen to be born psykers.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You are correctI really would rather have fan speculation, no matter how erroneous it might be, than yet again hearing how someone would really love to tell you something but cannot because of the binding restrictions of the NDA. "Trust me," the mantra goes, "you're going to love it." We had it with Dark Heresy , we have it now. Take it as an insult if you must. Call it pettiness if it makes you feel better, or gives you a sense of superiority. It does not in anyway change the fact that people are peeved about continually running into the NDA.

You seemed to take this as some form of churlish criticism, or even diatribe. That is your prerogative. I might suggest an alternate interpretation, and one that isn't a misinterpretation (I have a close relationship with the author of the idea ). The NDA is a source of frustration, both to yourself and to the punters. Since no one (well, other than criminals!) would ask anyone to break the lawdespite MILLANDSON's... retortthen the obvious way around it is not to mention it. Keep shtum. Revel in the fact that you know something that others don't, how wrong they are, or whatever floats your boat. When you can tell the puntersthe fanssomething without having to go "Err, I cannot tell you that because of the NDA," then tell them. I'm sure that they would appreciate it. I know I would.

Getting a broken nose every five seconds because you run into the NDA that is not your doing (the playtester/author)? Not so much. It also means that playtesters/authors get labelled as pro-FFG, biased, etc. This I would find insulting, since it implies that you don't have a mind of your own, which I'm certain is not the case.

I want to hear the thoughts of the playtesters/authors unfiltered by legal masturbation. Until that can happen, I feel that it is ultimately self-defeating.

On the other hand, as MILLANDSON points out, even crumbs from the table can be informative. I would just prefer the loaf, and I'm sure that others' frustrations grow out of the same desire.

So, again, just don't speak about it until you can. We know that you want to, but since you're bound by legal crap, it seems to be more harming than not.

Or maybe not. This is, after all, a discussion forum.

Kage

sepayne7l said:

Your answer in one word, sir: Nope!

The Imperium is violently Xenophobic. In very, very rare cases Imperials will ally with some of the less despicable alien militaries, such as those of the Eldar or the Tau, to defeat an immediate shared threat, then part company before one side inevitably betrays the other, and some of the more extremist Rogue Traders and many Inquisitors occasionally have truck with Aliens, but these are the exceptions to the rule, and even Radicals rarely have Alien servants dependable enough to be PC's.

But Deathwatch Marines with a permanent Xenos ally in their team? No. Never. Astartes would never serve alongside Aliens for any extended period of time, no matter how radical their Inquisitor may be or how dire the situation, the Marines do not compromise and it just really dosen't fit Astartes lore, least of all Deathwatch lore, their job is to be highly specialized Xenos killers after all.

However! A hardcore radical Inquisitor or Rogue Trader could easily have an Alien PC in their retinues. The hard part is finding an Alien race that isn't either inherently evil or as rabily anti-Human as the Imperium is anti-Alien. I'd love to see a Kroot Mercenary working for an Inquisitor myself, or an Eldar Warlock allying himself with an Inquisitor to manipulate his path along the lines that best suit the Eldar. Humanity and the Eldar loathe each other, but each side sees similarities in the other and the Eldar are often described as being "distrubingly Human" in their apperance, all of which makes great fodder for a good roleplaying group.

"Kill the Alien before it can speak its lies."
- The Book of Imperial Divinations

For those that were not aware, the forthcoming release in the Rogue Trader line, In the Storm , allows you to take on the role of two alien races. Just what those races are is anyone's guess.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

My guess is [MESSAGE REDACTED].

Wibble.

^ About as meaningful as the whole "message redacted" thing.

Guess that it once again comes down to the idea that people should shut up and just wait until the official story is released.

Kage

MILLANDSON said:

I have to agree with Kage here. That message just reeks of rubbing it in our faces that you as a playtester know but cant say cause of the NDA. Tee Hee.

These kind of posts are best left unposted.

I was really hoping that FFG would never cross the line of Xenos PCs. 40k aliens will never be roleplayed correctly. It just isn't going to happen. I shouldn't be surprised honestly. After the Vindicare in Ascension it's clear to me that FFG couldn't care less whether or not an idea is good roleplaying-wise. All they seem to care about is whether or not it has commercial appeal.

Atheosis said >>>

40k aliens will never be roleplayed correctly.

I would tentatively agree with this statement insofar as to roleplay them "correctly," you would need a wealth of information about the culture, psychology, physiology, technology etc. of the race in question. Even information on the major races that we are familiar with from GW offeringsand I include humans in this, although many would disagreehave so little information on them as to make them increasingly difficult to RP consistently. Of course, I remain unsure of what you meant be "correctly," but herein I have interpreted it to mean "with sufficient suspension of disbelief." After all, aliens have been written about and roleplayed for decades, all with sufficient suspension of disbelief. It would be a shame to seem them ignored because of an argument that is ultimately predicated upon the idea that aliensor even elves, dwarves or whatever in fantasy gamesshould never be allowed as PCs because, by default, there is no point of relationship between us (human players) and the characters. One need only look at anthropological studies to show that humans can be, to the observer, as alien as anything. All that anthropology does is given you the language to describe those cultures without going too far down the route of Caesar and the "celts" of The Gallic War .

Thus, I would suggest that given sufficient cultural details (such as provided in things like Traveller 's look at their alien racesspace dog Vikings, ha!) things like the Eldar, the Tau or whatever, would have sufficient suspension of disbelief that the illusion of being "alien" could be maintained (even if they are alterations and enhancements of one or more human cultures).

The question then becomes: Will we ever see such details? The answer to that is, I feel, probably not. It has less to do with commercial appeal and more to do with the idea that the authors would have to be laying down some details in "stone" and that's not something that we usually see from GW. Everything is "half truths and lies," which is great on one hand (lots of freedom to remake the universe into your own vision) and bad on the other (the fallacy of information being restrictive to the imagination). Would FFG be allowed to, say, define Eldar culture?

Are the alien races that we are to see in In the Storm going to be "significant" in context of the 40k universe (Eldar, Tau, Orks...), or just going to be a local race to the Calixis sector? Even then, in a book the size of In the Storm , are we going to get the "required" details?

Atheosis said >>>

After the Vindicare in Ascension it's clear to me that FFG couldn't care less whether or not an idea is good roleplaying-wise. All they seem to be care about is whether or not it has commercial appeal.

I don't see that, myself. While I don't agree with some of the things that they've done, or rather would have preferred to see some of it done in a different way, I do not think that extends to them not caring. Of course, as with all things of interpretation, YMMV or take with a pinch of salt.

Kage

I'm so going to try to make up a time lord ...er lady in my games.

Kage2020 said:

They'll probably be an Eldar Corsair and an Ork Freebooter.

Commissar Holt said:

I'm suspecting Kroot mercenary and the Ork Freeboota. But that's just my thought on it.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Kage2020 said:

There's a problem with all of this. Aliens in 40k are in fact aliens . They aren't reskinned humans. What we know of Orks and Eldar in particular makes it very clear that their psyches are drastically different than our own. This isn't the case of playing Elves or Dwarves in D&D where each race is basically human with extreme tendencies in certain directions. There is enough background material for certain races, there just isn't a way a human player is going to be able to pull it off. Eldar are going to be played as D&D elves in space, and Orks are going to played as violent, if somewhat humorous, pychopaths. Neither in any way captures what Orks and Eldar are actually like.

Okay, I'm going to take a stab at this, but if you feel that it's going to go in an entirely unproductive direction then just let me know.

Atheosis said >>>

There's a problem with all of this. Aliens in 40k are in fact aliens. They aren't reskinned humans. What we know of Orks and Eldar in particular makes it very clear that their psyches are drastically different than our own.

This is true. I would, however, point out that there are examples of cultures that are so radically different that they are functionally alien. Even looking back to historical and prehistoric "Western" cultures, the values and mores they express are just so much of a crazy that it is difficult for the modern mindset to really "get into." They have such a radical world view that it goes beyond merely saying, "Oh, that's crazy humans for you." It's why when someone presents me with the statement that it is not possible to play aliens in the 40k universe I will always question whether it is possible for humans to play 40k humansthey are going to be so radically different.

Yet playing humans because they are notionally "the same" never raises an eyebrow. Same with Marines, when it comes down to itthey're even crazier than 40k humans, but the subject of the ability to roleplay themor represent them in a novelrarely comes up. People don't even blink an eye. Yet I would submit that you're once again dealing with something so far out of human experience than it would be difficult if not impossible to "roleplay" them on an empathetic basis since there is no point of empathy.

Atheosis said >>>

This isn't the case of playing Elves or Dwarves in D&D where each race is basically human with extreme tendencies in certain directions.

Which is all that is really needed for playable alien racesthey have to be believably alien , not actually alien. To do this you have to define more about their culture, which I would argue that there are no good examples of in the 40k universe, not even the Imperium.

Atheosis said >>>

There is enough background material for certain races, there just isn't a way a human player is going to be able to pull it off. Eldar are going to be played as D&D elves in space, and Orks are going to played as violent, if somewhat humorous, pychopaths.

Does that say more about "D&D elves and orks" or 40k's representation that often amounts to little more than the same? After all, it is not uncommon to see the representations of the Eldar referred to as "humans with pointy ears" as they are currently described.

Atheosis said >>>

Neither in any way captures what Orks and Eldar are actually like.

What are they like, though? Even if mankind were to enjoy first contact tomorrow, you can bet the anthropologists will be out there using their language to describe them as best as they are able... and popularist media will be making analogies with human experience.

This is certainly one of those topics that comes under the heading of, "If you don't like, don't use," surely?

Kage

Let me rephrase my position. It may not be impossible for players to play 40k aliens properly. 90+% of players lack the capacity to do so however. It reminds me of Chaotic Neutral back in D&D. I ended up banning the alignment because one in twenty players had a clue how to play it correctly. The rest just played the alignment like they were crazy. I'm just skeptical that people are going to do much with 40k alien characters.

Oh and by the way the other issue I see is that as soon as a player starts up a Xenos character they create a real headache for the rest of the party. A Xenos party member is basically a death warrant on everyone else's head if he/she/it is ever discovered. On top of that the character is basically precluded from interacting within Imperial borders for obvious reasons.

Yep, I really don't care for Xenos PCs in 40k Roleplay.

Atheosis said:

Well, then, you're not obliged to use them; all FFG are providing is the option. Inquisitorial stormtroopers will not hold you at gunpoint and force you to include Xenos PCs, nor is there any factor that will override a GM's perogative to disallow them.

I mean, I wrote one of them, and I'm still not allowing Xenos PCs in my forthcoming campaign.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

True enough.

As was going to ask what "playing correctly" meant, since it seems to be an obvious point of contention (i.e. what is correctly?), but not sure whether it would be productive or not. In which case I shall leave it at that rather than a longer post and, if it wouldn't be productive, then don't bother answering.

Kage