2 hours ago, Sithborg said:

Where is the SF spoilers?

Just found it:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/8/3/evil-resurgent/

well...I stand corrected. This isn’t to the SF. I can’t find anything.

4 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

Just found it:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/8/3/evil-resurgent/

well...I stand corrected. This isn’t to the SF. I can’t find anything.

They don't have specific articles for each ship, just the basic First Order article.

The information is gathered in this document:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WBD6vYa6cXMFsQNdbfSK1kjQdscdsQ_aLfMTbGqRsfY/edit#heading=h.d37uyv8b8rmp

(but everything is from that article I believe)

Okay, I found where the main info on the SF is coming from. I think there is some underestimation of what these will be like before they die. A double tap with Fanatical is not to be taken likely. There is also a wide range of upgrades we don't know about yet.

I don't think "doesn't play like 1.0" is something big enough to worry about.

17 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

They don't have specific articles for each ship, just the basic First Order article.

The information is gathered in this document:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WBD6vYa6cXMFsQNdbfSK1kjQdscdsQ_aLfMTbGqRsfY/edit#heading=h.d37uyv8b8rmp

(but everything is from that article I believe)

I appreciate the link. Thank you.

Question though, why the discussion on a partial picture? Point cost, up grades, and almost everything else is not known.

16 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

Okay, I found where the main info on the SF is coming from. I think there is some underestimation of what these will be like before they die. A double tap with Fanatical is not to be taken likely. There is also a wide range of upgrades we don't know about yet.

I don't think "doesn't play like 1.0" is something big enough to worry about.

Just now, Ccwebb said:

I appreciate the link. Thank you.

Question though, why the discussion on a partial picture? Point cost, up grades, and almost everything else is not known.

If the unrevealed upgrades keep to the theme of the revealed ones, we don't have too much to be excited about.

For example, the four revealed system slots have 1 option that is worthwhile, and another situational.

The game seems to move away from upgrade stacking as a viable strategy to make a ship great. Upgrades no longer make or break a ship.

40 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Poe lost unlimited regen, his ability and AT

but gained free PTL, 1 per game SLAM without WD and a Configuration card (which is really good)

I'm not hating on Poe, but you can't seriously say they got the same treatment.

Free PTL is great but he lost a lot of what made him annoying in 1.0. I think the SF and T-70 are both going to be great in 2.0. Nothing really disappoints me about either.

Just now, defkhan1 said:

Free PTL is great but he lost a lot of what made him annoying in 1.0. I think the SF and T-70 are both going to be great in 2.0. Nothing really disappoints me about either.

Both ships lost a lot of stuff, the t70 also gained a bunch. The sf only really gained an evade.

I get your general positivity vibe, but please don't say the ships will be equally good or even comparable. They are really not.

4 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

If the unrevealed upgrades keep to the theme of the revealed ones, we don't have too much to be excited about.

For example, the four revealed system slots have 1 option that is worthwhile, and another situational.

The game seems to move away from upgrade stacking as a viable strategy to make a ship great. Upgrades no longer make or break a ship.

The way they did in 1.0? No. But if the SF keeps its higher init, than that linked white action is going to make it extremely tough for people to avoid its arcs. And I am looking at the interactions Fanatical and Advanced Optics can do, and am very interested.

And really, making the gunner slot kind of like the config slot on X-wings isn't necessarily bad, with the SF Gunner.

6 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Both ships lost a lot of stuff, the t70 also gained a bunch. The sf only really gained an evade.

I get your general positivity vibe, but please don't say the ships will be equally good or even comparable. They are really not.

I don't think it's fair to say that without having seen everything yet. And even then, 2.0 SFs look to have translated very well from their 1.0 counterparts.

Another day, another thread from Kaine...

21 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

please don't say the ships will be equally good or even comparable. They are really not.

you know that because?

9 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Another day, another thread from Kaine...

FTFY

1 hour ago, HolySorcerer said:

It can take veteran turret gunner, but it will trade its 3 dice attack for it.

Veteran Turret Gunner requires the rotate action, which the SF doesn't have. Linked actions don't satisfy upgrade prerequisites (rules reference, page 19.)

31 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Another day, another thread from Kaine...

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Except when you are stressed or used Adv. Sensors.... coincidentally, two of the most interesting states of the SF. The dial is riddled with red moves (and it is likely to stay the same) which now shut down its ability, and Adv. sensors makes impossible to use the rotate arc all together.

Actually, I expect FCS will still be the go-to upgrade for the SF. It's changed, but it's still good, and it'll give you passive mods when you do things like said red moves. And I doubt you'll need to rotate your arc very often. Most of the time you leave it straight ahead. If you're flying away from someone and want to shoot backwards, then you rotate it backwards, but probably won't be bumping or stressed if you're flying away. Could be a problem if you've been shotting out the rear and want to do a red I suppose to flip around, but otherwise, I don't think it'll be that bad.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

It had fairly difficult to pull off double tap, mostly for flavor.

No more difficult really than first edition. Not common, but can be quite good at times.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

No. It's not great, because it lost all those things, and didn't get anything else. Compare it with the T70, a very similar ship in performance and cost (same era too, so they pair of naturally well). It got more stuff.

Well... BD got worse. and no news on QD. It could be, but I'm not optimistic.

Backdraft got worse, but only compared to 1e standards. He still gets 3 dice out the rear arc, which is still quite good.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Poe lost unlimited regen, his ability and AT

but gained free PTL, 1 per game SLAM without WD and a Configuration card (which is really good)

I'm not hating on Poe, but you can't seriously say they got the same treatment.

PTL and once per game slam are significantly worse than his 1e ability, autothrusters and unlimited regen. The configuration is interesting, but we can't say how good it is until we see what the other side does. Adding a barrel roll at the cost of an attack die unless you're using the bullseye is situational at best.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Both ships lost a lot of stuff, the t70 also gained a bunch. The sf only really gained an evade.

I get your general positivity vibe, but please don't say the ships will be equally good or even comparable. They are really not.

We don't know what the SF might have gained. It got an evade, it got the ability to fire missiles backwards. We haven't seen much else yet. The dial could change (to reflect Poe's comment on how they really move). We know it gets a gunner slot, but don't know what the other upgrade slots will look like. We don't know what the cost will be. You can't truly judge the ship until we know what upgrades it gets and how much it costs. It's not a big deal if it's "worse" than the T70 if it's appropriately cheaper.

4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

We don't know what the SF might have gained. It got an evade, it got the ability to fire missiles backwards. We haven't seen much else yet. The dial could change (to reflect Poe's comment on how they really move). We know it gets a gunner slot, but don't know what the other upgrade slots will look like. We don't know what the cost will be. You can't truly judge the ship until we know what upgrades it gets and how much it costs. It's not a big deal if it's "worse" than the T70 if it's appropriately cheaper.

It didn't gain a gunner slot, if the slot is occupied by the "title".

I don't think other gunners can top +1 dice or double tap.

Also, for me it would be a problem if it got appropriately cheaper. I prefer a more expensive ship that is more powerful, as that is the primary flavor of the FO.

The SF looks like a slightly better Aggressor, if anything. Has similar actions, similar stats. System and tech instead double missile and (actual) gunner slot. Front and rear instead of turret.

I much preferred if it was a slightly better Defender. I understand this is preference.

I hope for a vastly improved dial, but not many things surprised me, except maybe the system slot on the TAP.

Some powerful Mag Pulse missiles would be nice too.

1 minute ago, Commander Kaine said:

It didn't gain a gunner slot, if the slot is occupied by the "title".

I don't think other gunner s can top +1 dice or double tap.'

Entirely depends on what other options they add. Depending how much the ship ends up costing, might be able to make something work using hotshot gunner for control.

1 minute ago, Commander Kaine said:

Also, for me it would be a problem if it got appropriately cheaper. I prefer a more expensive ship that is more powerful, as that is the primary flavor of the FO.

The base chassis should get cheaper, unless they make the gunner basically free. Something else to consider is we haven't seen the requirements for the SF gunner yet. Odds are it'll be limited to the TIE/SF, but if it's not, it could open it up for future turreted ships (I'm guessing it'll be at least limited to FO).

1 minute ago, Commander Kaine said:

I much preferred if it was a slightly better Defender. I understand this is preference.

The SF has never been that though, so I'm not sure why it'd be expected to be in second edition.

@Commander Kaine , did you consider merging all your contributions in one big Thread'O'Whining ?

The combination of gaining the evade action, having a white linked rotate on every action, and being able to shoot missiles out of the rear arc has me really quite interested as a big 1st edtion SF fan. I was flying them well before LWF was out, loaded with missiles, and getting the ability to rear arc missiles, most of which effectively include a baked in Extra Munitions, seems really good.

And I'm never going to say no to the possibility of getting Juke on any ship...

4 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Also... Is there any argument against this:

3/2

2

3

3

Focus

Lock

Evade

Broll

Ship ability: may fire <missile> weapons out of rear arc.

SF gunner: You may roll 1 fewer dice on your primary attack from (frontarc), if you do so, you may perform a bonus primary attack from (reararc)

I'm not sure how the above is an argument in the first place, so difficult to argue against it. Everything will come down to price, I think. It's an X-Wing with more flexibility so I wouldn't be surprised if it cost a bit more than they do. I think you're overselling the "disadvantage" of having one of the ship's abilities tied to the SF Gunner. If you take the Gunner you have a 3-dice primary with some situational benefit when firing backwards. If you don't take it, all the evidence so far points to 2-dice primaries being OK in 2nd edition.

So to echo what a lot of people have already said, there's too much 1st edition thinking here.

I never get bored of reading 3 paragraphs that list some interesting new design features, then the closing paragraph complaining about them.

Butt Missiles is huge. Points need though.

56 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

@Commander Kaine , did you consider merging all your contributions in one big Thread'O'Whining ?

That'd be great, then we could just all ignore it rather than having him spamming his particular brand of Chicken Little tantrums across the boards every day.

Hey now, they are having a very productive discussion here.

Kaine clearly says he doesn‘t feel that this second wave ship, due in whoknowswhen, maybe November, is good enough anymore for whatever meta will develop in that (admittedly still unreleased) game.

Clearly his version, developped in 30 seconds, is superior to that of professional game designers. Even if we do not have all cards and interactions, or even if it is subject to change up to release, we can already tell. I want to note that if it will be changed at release, then clearly the devs are untrustworthy (spreading misinformation!) and do not playtest their cards.

After all, this ship should be what he wants it to be, and not what the devs want to put in their game.

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hey now, they are having a very productive discussion here.

Kaine clearly says he doesn‘t feel that this second wave ship, due in whoknowswhen, maybe November, is good enough anymore for whatever meta will develop in that (admittedly still unreleased) game.

Clearly his version, developped in 30 seconds, is superior to that of professional game designers. Even if we do not have all cards and interactions, or even if it is subject to change up to release, we can already tell. I want to note that if it will be changed at release, then clearly the devs are untrustworthy (spreading misinformation!) and do not playtest their cards.

After all, this ship should be what he wants it to be, and not what the devs want to put in their game.

Rip in peace kaine.

I don't see why people can't just say, 'Actually, I think it'll be decent because blah' and have an interesting discussion about an interesting ship, what they'd like, prefer, expect etc etc. There's a handful of good posts in here that have caused me to start pondering this ship on the table.

If you're taking it further than that, into your own complaints about so and so, personal criticisms etc, then it's a pot and kettle situation. Shame on you. SHAME.