1 hour ago, StriderZessei said:

*looks at TIE/D title*...

We are talking about 2.0

Haven't played 2nd edition yet but I don't think the costs are too far out at first glance. The Defender looks pretty monstrous. It has the best defensive statline of any small-based ship. Actually, it probably has the best defensive statline in the game with 4 shields, 3 hull, 3 agility and the ability to token stack, which is extremely rare in 2nd and not too difficult to pull off. The VCX, on the other hand, has a lot of health but seems like it would melt under concentrated fire. There have been a few people commenting that this is the case. I think big bases might be more of a drawback in 2nd edition too. In 1st they were generally an advantage, especially with access to boost and barrel roll, but with a lot of powerful effects now using the bullseye arc a bigger base could prove to be more of a liability.

Also consider you can take a Defender, add Juke and have a really effective ship. The VCX, like a lot of big ships, is going to need quite a few upgrades to be worth it. The main thing it has going for it is probably customisability. There are a lot of slots available to take upgrades, and most of them are pretty useful. If the ship does prove to be overcosted that can be adjusted too.

2 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

*looks at TIE/D title*...

How did you get TIE/D in 2.0? I wants it!

8 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

Don t know anything about the numbers, but I saw an episode of Rebels where one Defender seemed to be more than a match for the Ghost and 2 Y wings. So much so that they were forced to flee into a sun type thing to have a chance.

Does that count?

Yeah, even piloted by Hera Syndulla who is neck-and-neck with Poe as Best Pilot Ever the Ghost has consistently struggled against Defenders.

14 minutes ago, Ktan said:

Hera Syndulla who is neck-and-neck with Poe as Best Pilot Ever

* Mechanical breathing*

"Do not want!"

2 minutes ago, player2422845 said:

* Mechanical breathing*

"Do not want!"

Sorry, Rebels Recon confirmed it =P

It's not wierd.

8 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Defenders were 28(30 without title), so 56 in 2.0 price(or 60). The vcx was 35, or 70 in 2.0 points.

So vcx remained the same but defenders increased in cost by 25% and gained 1 shield

Is 1 shield worth 14 points? Or 10?

I'm not convinced that this isnt fair pricing or that defenders are bad at 72 points, its simply surprising to me. when khiraxz fighters got a shield but stayed the same price it makes me wonder



That shield is worth 8 points in 2.0 pricing on a 3 agility small base ship. It also gained access to boost which would be worth 8 points in 2.0 pricing. In 2.0 the defender is one of the only ships that can generate both a focus and an evade in the same turn, let alone without being stressed for it. And in addition to doing both of those after completing a white K-turn which no other ship can do.

As for pricing on 1.0 defenders, the Delta was a ridiculously cost efficient ship after the titles were introduced. The only reason they couldn't completely dominate things was because of the power creep, ridiculous accuracy and ability to arc dodge with fat turrets. All of which were things that seriously addressed in 2.0.

3 hours ago, Ktan said:

Yeah, even piloted by Hera Syndulla who is neck-and-neck with Poe as Best Pilot Ever the Ghost has consistently struggled against Defenders.

Eh I think Hera is kind of a big fish in a small Lothal pond. She’s good, but she ain’t Poe.

11 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Every ship could be melted in a single round, especially if we don't look at the upgrades.

Also, the ghost can fire multiple times (in multiple directions!). The Defender cannot.

My problem with the defender, is that you spend 100 points for a 3 dice attack with 1 mod. Which is not consistent with the lore of the setting or the purpose of the craft.

I’ll trade you free evades and Juke for the currently-near-useless ability to fire twice unmodified.

10 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Biggest VCX loss is the system slot. That provided a lot of action economy in FCS, or a lot of defensive power when using Sensor Jammer. The loss of 2 HP isn't too big a deal if you're using Reinforce (A reinforced 2e Ghost takes about 10 attacks with 3 focused dice to kill, a 1e Ghost took about 8 over two turns, presuming an Evade each turn). Reinforce is a big enough improvement that it warranted a hit point reduction. However, the biggest strength of a cheap 1e Ghost was Fire Control System. Pull that 5k into a Target Locked attack. I flew a lot of them lately, and having that action economy was massive.

But this was the point of 2e. Token stacking and easy action economy was supposed to go away. With the VCX, <orc voice> work complete. The red dice have been heavily hit. It's still got a decent dial and is pretty cheap for having a 4-dice primary.

The TIE Defender, on the other hand, kept the economy, just got more expensive. Or rather, it pays for a Shield Upgrade and Engine Upgrade tax. A Delta TIE/x7 with Engine and Shield Upgrade would translate to 36 points, which when doubled is exactly the 72 points of a baseline TIE Defender in 2e. That seems like it happens in a lot of other games. Powerful units don't necessarily become weaker, they just pay a tax in having to take expensive upgrades which maybe folks would rather skip, but can still work out.

I dunno. Defender and VCX pricing makes sense to me.

I concur. Additionally, the Defender also gained one very important feature: a sensor slot (while the Ghost lost one). If you haven't played Advanced Sensor Defenders then you haven't realized how truly powerful these ships have become. They also gained blue 1 banks, which are surprisingly useful. The red 2k is great on everyone but Ryad, though I haven't used it for effect yet. This build is an arc dodger without requiring double repositions - just a boost up front and a 4k (or any k with Ryad). It flies completely different than the venerable 1E X7.

54 minutes ago, viedit said:

That shield is worth 8 points in 2.0 pricing on a 3 agility small base ship. It also gained access to boost which would be worth 8 points in 2.0 pricing. In 2.0 the defender is one of the only ships that can generate both a focus and an evade in the same turn, let alone without being stressed for it. And in addition to doing both of those after completing a white K-turn which no other ship can do.

As for pricing on 1.0 defenders, the Delta was a ridiculously cost efficient ship after the titles were introduced. The only reason they couldn't completely dominate things was because of the power creep, ridiculous accuracy and ability to arc dodge with fat turrets. All of which were things that seriously addressed in 2.0.

No, the shield upgrade is priced at eight points, it isn't worth eight points.

1 minute ago, HolySorcerer said:

No, the shield upgrade is priced at eight points, it isn't worth eight points.

LOL. Fair!

The Defender's point-cost seems fair for all it can do. The added white boost and evade actions alone are a big plus. The extra shield, when most ships have reduced shielding in 2.0, is another big advantage, as is the System slot. I always loved the ship, but I'm glad that there can't be more than two fielded in a squad.

4 hours ago, Mirrimon said:

How did you get TIE/D in 2.0? I wants it!

Oh. Right.

That's what I get for posting at 1 am.

literally the only reason the VCX was decent/strong in 1.0 was because of the insanely undercosted BS that could be slapped on it/paired with it.

The ship itself has always been garbage, it just hasnt been as obvious because of the obscene bullcrap 1.0 rebels had access to.

25 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

literally the only reason the VCX was decent/strong in 1.0 was because of the insanely undercosted BS that could be slapped on it/paired with it.

The ship itself has always been garbage, it just hasnt been as obvious because of the obscene bullcrap 1.0 rebels had access to.

That's not really true. 16 health, 4 dice primary, native evade and pretty good dial for 35 points? That's a very efficient chassis and far from garbage. Adding 5 points (FCS, AB and Hera crew) turned it into one of the best jousters in the game. It basically was a large base defender at that point.

10 minutes ago, viedit said:

That's not really true. 16 health, 4 dice primary, native evade and pretty good dial for 35 points? That's a very efficient chassis and far from garbage. Adding 5 points (FCS, AB and Hera crew) turned it into one of the best jousters in the game. It basically was a large base defender at that point.

Now it can take Saw, which seems pretty good.

45 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

literally the only reason the VCX was decent/strong in 1.0 was because of the insanely undercosted BS that could be slapped on it/paired with it.

The ship itself has always been garbage, it just hasnt been as obvious because of the obscene bullcrap 1.0 rebels had access to.

There are essentially two VCX. Cheap jousters, and loaded title Ghosts. Loaded title Ghosts, I'd agree, were only good because of other obscene BS like Ezra-crew, Fenn Rau, and pre-nerf Biggs.

16 minutes ago, viedit said:

That's not really true. 16 health, 4 dice primary, native evade and pretty good dial for 35 points? That's a very efficient chassis and far from garbage. Adding 5 points (FCS, AB and Hera crew) turned it into one of the best jousters in the game. It basically was a large base defender at that point.

As someone who flew a lot of FCS/AB VCX fairly lately, they're solid jousters (even with only Courier Droid for crew). I feel like they were kinda legit... before wave 14. I was doing well with 2x VCX plus a docked Stress-Ezra Sheathipede, prior to the local meta shifting to heavy swarm X-Wings (even 4-ship lists, like Wes, 2x CAZ, and friend), and these guys don't have a great matchup against that. It's not impossible--two attacks can wipe an X-Wing off the board, if lucky--but it's like a 33% matchup overall. Against stuff like TIE Defenders or Asajj, these things could compete well. There's a lot of hit points to chew through, and they throw very dense red dice. Against 2 and 3 ship lists, I really think they were quite a good list.

Some of the point costs in 2.0 seem real screwy.

The biggest offender being the Jumpmaster, where the generic scout is more expensive than Han Solo in Lando’s Falcon, despite Han being better in pretty much every way.

2.0 is a massive step forward but it is going to need a LOT of tweaking. And in the case of the Jumpmaster, probably a new dial. The current one is just too bad to functionally support the ship being anything other than a support vessel, and we already have the YV-666 or HWK for that.

20 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Now it can take Saw, which seems pretty good.

But man did he get expensive. 4x more expensive in 2.0 than 1.0. Ouch. And ghost has less health now to soak Saw mods.

20 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

As someone who flew a lot of FCS/AB VCX fairly lately, they're solid jousters (even with only Courier Droid for crew). I feel like they were kinda legit... before wave 14. I was doing well with 2x VCX plus a docked Stress-Ezra Sheathipede, prior to the local meta shifting to heavy swarm X-Wings (even 4-ship lists, like Wes, 2x CAZ, and friend), and these guys don't have a great matchup against that. It's not impossible--two attacks can wipe an X-Wing off the board, if lucky--but it's like a 33% matchup overall. Against stuff like TIE Defenders or Asajj, these things could compete well. There's a lot of hit points to chew through, and they throw very dense red dice. Against 2 and 3 ship lists, I really think they were quite a good list.

You described the exact list I flew for quite a while. Double ghost + Stressezra. I also for a short time ran a DTF a-wing when RacLO was big to tank crits away from Rac and prevent blinded pilots. It wasn't a great list but it was interesting :). Wave 14 put everything on notice between the raw health and efficiency of 5x and the token denial and action murdering of Reapers. A LOT of things that were previously very viable were no longer after 14 dropped.

7 minutes ago, Delta57Dash said:

Some of the point costs in 2.0 seem real screwy.

The biggest offender being the Jumpmaster, where the generic scout is more expensive than Han Solo in Lando’s Falcon, despite Han being better in pretty much every way.

2.0 is a massive step forward but it is going to need a LOT of tweaking. And in the case of the Jumpmaster, probably a new dial. The current one is just too bad to functionally support the ship being anything other than a support vessel, and we already have the YV-666 or HWK for that.

I think the Jumpmaster dial is kinda fine. It's not amazing, but it'll do. It just needs to be a little cheaper.

It's also the only real option: they're not going to print new dials for ships.

That said, trying out 3x Jumps with Proton Torpedos and Contraband Cybernetics would be interesting. Or two with one each of Zuckuss/4-LOM/0-0-0, and the other with Punishing One and R3 Astromech.

13 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Every ship could be melted in a single round, especially if we don't look at the upgrades.

Also, the ghost can fire multiple times (in multiple directions!). The Defender cannot.

My problem with the defender, is that you spend 100 points for a 3 dice attack with 1 mod. Which is not consistent with the lore of the setting or the purpose of the craft.

Well I see it sort of like the F-35 Program. The program cost about 400 Billion, but each individual plane only costs around 85 million, which isnt too bad as far as "most dangerous conventional weapons platform ever devised" go. Most of the development cost goes into research, engineering, and weapons development, which all occur long before the plane rolls out of the factory. I think the Defender would be the same way. By the time they were flying early prototypes, the Empire had likely already spent the equivalent of billions of dollars. If anything, as the production increased, the overall cost per unit decreased. Also, coffee

11 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

How dare you compare the Defender to the joke that is the F-35. Not only is the Defender cheaper, but it actually works!

The correct comparison is the F-35 to the E-Wing.