1 minute ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

Why not? I'm looking forward to it! LOL - that's the beauty of 2.0 - yes, a Howl swarm seems awesome, as do double Defenders, but it all boils down to flying well.

Jousting a TIE swarm, even with defenders, is not flying well.

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

Jousting a TIE swarm, even with defenders, is not flying well.

Lol, it's not Jousting. It's Defender arc-dodging. You start out of guns range, then end up behind them. Most ships can't do that - the Adv Sensor Defender can. From there, you Boost at an angle and 4k again, where they don't expect you, simply because the natural response will be to k-turn the swarm to meet the threat. Really, the best option for the swarm is to split forces to cover more arcs, but that also plays to the advantage of the Defender, as now there are fewer guns pointing their way.

I'm not saying Defenders are better than swarms, but they're certainly even.

The tie swarm player is playing poorly if they let you pull off this '6k' trick on them. Ryad has prepared swarm players well for predicting multiple K-turn speeds and the ties should be in position to block them all. That means no free evade and a ton of up close, bullseye attacks, and a dead defender. You'll catch some people with this trick, but you should be punished for it by a prepared swarm player.

2 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

Lol, it's not Jousting. It's Defender arc-dodging. You start out of guns range, then end up behind them. Most ships can't do that - the Adv Sensor Defender can. From there, you Boost at an angle and 4k again, where they don't expect you, simply because the natural response will be to k-turn the swarm to meet the threat. Really, the best option for the swarm is to split forces to cover more arcs, but that also plays to the advantage of the Defender, as now there are fewer guns pointing their way.

I'm not saying Defenders are better than swarms, but they're certainly even.

Maybe you're seeing it differently in your head than I am. A 2 defender list is going to have to be flown very well to kill enough TIEs, and the swarm flown very "meh", in 75 minutes to win. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that the onus is on the double defender player.

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Maybe you're seeing it differently in your head than I am. A 2 defender list is going to have to be flown very well to kill enough TIEs, and the swarm flown very "meh", in 75 minutes to win. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that the onus is on the double defender player.

Yeah, I'm not seeing how Defenders that regularly spend their one action on Advanced Sensors to reposition will do enough damage to a swarm.

When they win it will be because they kill a TIE Fighter, then run forever. That sounds awful to me, but it will work sometimes.

10 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Yeah, I'm not seeing how Defenders that regularly spend their one action on Advanced Sensors to reposition will do enough damage to a swarm.

When they win it  will be because they kill a TIE Fighter, then run forever. That sounds awful to me, but it will work sometimes. 

That's pretty close to how I see it happening in my head. And also assuming the swarm player doesn't just twiddle his thumbs in a corner fortressing the entire game and murdering you in the salvo. But assuming they actually choose to deploy from Fort Swarm I see about 40 minutes of position jockeying. Maybe a couple meaningless range 3 shots on one another in passing. And then the defenders attempting to snipe *SOMETHING* before time is up. With Iden in a swarm you are looking at what....4 or 5 rounds before you can even knock one ship out?

7 minutes ago, viedit said:

That's pretty close to how I see it happening in my head. And also assuming the swarm player doesn't just twiddle his thumbs in a corner fortressing the entire game and murdering you in the salvo. But assuming they actually choose to deploy from Fort Swarm I see about 40 minutes of position jockeying. Maybe a couple meaningless range 3 shots on one another in passing. And then the defenders attempting to snipe *SOMETHING* before time is up. With Iden in a swarm you are looking at what....4 or 5 rounds before you can even knock one ship out?

Unless the Defender is waiting for a screw up where an academy gets out of R1 of Iden, but yeah.

16 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Rexler Brath was in the very first squad I ever took to a tournament....

@Biophysical goes on to say a bunch of stuff about his one true love, Rexler Brath, which is akin to my man crush on Poe Dameron.

I can personally attest to Juke/HLC Rexler being a terror, particularly to a swarm. I twitch every time he says, "Juke" and regardless of me knowing how Rexler works, I make him explain it to me every other time he deals a single hit on a TIE/ln and makes me flip it up. Ending up in the HLC bullseye feels like a surprise each time it happens, not a happy one. He's 100% a centerpiece pilot and can play the long game better than any other ship I've seen in action aside from possibly Luke.

In general, I think the swarm is one of the tougher matchups for the Defender, so when I've been building squads I've been looking at at least one ship that has a good matchup against swarms. A Punisher or Duchess are looking especially good. Duchess because of her absurd pre-dial maneuverability and high Initiative. The Punisher because that flung bomb makes swarms so sad.

19 minutes ago, NervousSam said:

The tie swarm player is playing poorly if they let you pull off this '6k' trick on them. Ryad has prepared swarm players well for predicting multiple K-turn speeds and the ties should be in position to block them all. That means no free evade and a ton of up close, bullseye attacks, and a dead defender. You'll catch some people with this trick, but you should be punished for it by a prepared swarm player.

You are 100% correct. A well prepared swarm player shouldn't provide the opportunity for this maneuver to work. My point is that it's a new maneuver that's great to pull off in the right circumstance. It's not intended to win a game, it's simply a better starting position. Yes, swarms are powerful, but they can still be outmaneuvered. Rolling 4 reds (rng 1) vs 2 greens (outmaneuver taking effect) makes for dead TIEs with a couple shots each. That should be the Defender player's goal. You're not always boosting first either, only when you need to arc-dodge. My last game I was using a solid mix of actions to great effect, with plenty of modded shots (lots of focus, some pre-planning with TLs). The Defender is no longer a one-trick pony jouster - it has lots of options now in combat. A good swarm player will have to do just as much fancy flying to avoid the Defenders as the Defenders will have to do to avoid the wall of fire from the swarm.

58 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

You can do both! Rexler, Fel, and a Saber fit easy, as do Rexler and 3 Alphas .

Now you're speaking my language! That sounds AMAZING fun!

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

In general, I think the swarm is one of the tougher matchups for the Defender, so when I've been building squads I've been looking at at least one ship that has a good matchup against swarms. A Punisher or Duchess are looking especially good. Duchess because of her absurd pre-dial maneuverability and high Initiative. The Punisher because that flung bomb makes swarms so sad.

This is what you bring with a defender, not another defender. A punisher feels like swarm insurance that any Imperial list will want to consider.

Yeah my initial 2.0 list I'm tinkering with is Rexler + Deathrain + ???

I had Maarek in there but he just wasn't doing it for me. I had the points for Whisper + Juke which seems interesting.

9 minutes ago, viedit said:

Yeah my initial 2.0 list I'm tinkering with is Rexler + Deathrain + ???

I had Maarek in there but he just wasn't doing it for me. I had the points for Whisper + Juke which seems interesting.

Rexler + Deathrain doesn't leave a lot for a 3rd ship. If you downgrade to a Cutlass you can get Fel or Whisper, although the Cutlass is admittedly not as good as Deathrain.

You might be able to make an absurd 2 ship list with Redline, though. They match. Initiative, and do a lot to cover each other's weaknesses. Probably enough for Wampa leftover.

I can fit around 56 points in with how I ran Deathrain and Rexler. They were both somewhat lean. I was doing Marksmanship Maarek + 2pt bid. I can squeeze Whisper + Juke in there for an even 200.

Rexler, Soontir and Duchess fit pretty comfortably in a list. Could probably finagle Whisper in rather than Soontir if you were inclined.

Can confirm, Tie Swarm can easily beat 2 Defenders. Problem in 1.0 was Triple Defenders, you could kill one, maybe kill the second, but never will have enough firepower to kill the third. In 2.0, you’re killing a defender without losing a tie because of Iden. Then you only have 1 Defender left to kill. The defender play now has to outplay the tie swarm instead of the other way around.

6 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Can confirm, Tie Swarm can easily beat 2 Defenders. Problem in 1.0 was Triple Defenders, you could kill one, maybe kill the second, but never will have enough firepower to kill the third. In 2.0, you’re killing a defender without losing a tie because of Iden. Then you only have 1 Defender left to kill. The defender play now has to outplay the tie swarm instead of the other way around.

How were the Defenders kitted out? Were they pulling the Boost+K routine? I'm understandably curious!

48 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Rexler + Deathrain doesn't leave a lot for a 3rd ship. If you downgrade to a Cutlass you can get Fel or Whisper, although the Cutlass is admittedly not as good as Deathrain.

You might be able to make an absurd 2 ship list with Redline, though. They match. Initiative, and do a lot to cover each other's weaknesses. Probably enough for Wampa leftover.

i was actually trying to find a good third and came up with 2 possibilities

If you only have Clusters the punisher and am using Deathrain you shoudl have ~50pts to bring an ion-turret Aggressor
Or, you can not be as sparing with upgrades and bring Wampa....dang it SEYN...for some cheap card-dealing since hes the only tie that doesnt care about your defenses if he rolls a crit he's going to give you a card, which brath can flip even through shields.
Could even give him Marksmanship to force the crit, though you need bullseye. Not that its expensive of an upgrade anyway.

Here's what I plan to try, although I think Rex plus a mini swarm might be a better meta choice.

New Squadron

(47) Lieutenant Sai
(6) ST-321
Points 53

(52) Soontir Fel
(2) Predator
Points 54

(84) Rexler Brath
(4) Juke
(3) Fire-Control System
Points 91

Total points: 198

17 minutes ago, DXCrazytrain said:

Here's what I plan to try, although I think Rex plus a mini swarm might be a better meta choice.

New Squadron

(47) Lieutenant Sai
(6) ST-321
Points 53

(52) Soontir Fel
(2) Predator
Points 54

(84) Rexler Brath
(4) Juke
(3) Fire-Control System
Points 91

Total points: 198

Not bad. So Sai uses Coordinate on Rexler for focus, gaining a focus for the shuttle at the same time because of Sai's pilot ability. Because it performed a coordinate, the shuttle picks up a free lock thanks to ST-321. Rexler moves and takes a target lock action with a free evade, stacking all three tokens necessary to be an offensive power house thanks in part to Juke. Soontir is clearly the least threatening, so he gets ignored, which is what he wants most anyway. Did I get that right?

I would probably coordinate the focus to Soontir to activate Autothrusters, do a blue to clear stress, take an evade, Autothrusters again, and then get a possible 2nd focus from the bullseye. Crazy economy between those two. You could of course coordinate Rex if the situation calls for it.

yeah but doing that with Soontir also paints him as a bigger target since you just shown your list's synergy being able to buff Soontir quite well despite only having 2 upgrade.

People are prone to ignore naked or near naked ships until its the only thing they can hit or its a R1 vs R3 preference.

But if you can prove you can make the nearly-naked ship absolutely lethal for little effort theyre going to go for it. Soontir cant take the heat of being focus fired very well, Rex can.

Wouldnt say never do it to soontir, but i wouldnt primarily do it to soontir.

@Biophysical what is your current working build for Rexler? Juke, HLC, FCS, Homing Missiles? Or something cheaper? If you had to start dropping upgrades for points where would you start?

3 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

yeah but doing that with Soontir also paints him as a bigger target since you just shown your list's synergy being able to buff Soontir quite well despite only having 2 upgrade.

People are prone to ignore naked or near naked ships until its the only thing they can hit or its a R1 vs R3 preference.

But if you can prove you can make the nearly-naked ship absolutely lethal for little effort theyre going to go for it. Soontir cant take the heat of being focus fired very well, Rex can.

Wouldnt say never do it to soontir, but i wouldnt primarily do it to soontir.

It's definitely a "looks good on paper" list, which is why I think Rex plus mini swarm might be better.