I thought it was very strange that Christian Petersen was stepping down BEFORE gencon. I think I have a theory of why he stepped down at the time he did.

My theory is that Christian did not AGREE with the concept of using Gambling Loot Boxes to sell product to the extreme as they are with the Unique Game Concept. Christian is a gamer at heart and most recently worked on the development of SW: Armada. He knows how to make great games. I find the following quote from the Press Release interesting.

Quote

“Now it’s time to hand the reins to a new generation of leaders who along with the amazing staff at Asmodee North America and its studios (Catan, Days of Wonder, FFG, Heidelbär, Plaid Hat, and Z-Man), will move forward with their own unique energy and vision.

Going along with that theory, Christian was pushed out due to share holder interest in maxing profits with Unique Games Gambling Loot Boxes. So he was asked to step down.

What are your thoughts? Why do you think Christian left? Do you think it has ANYTHING to do with FFG's Unique games? Or do you think he made enough money and is ready for retirement? Does anyone know of internal politics at Asmodee and FFG? Do you believe the contents of the press release or do you think there are alternative possibilities that are not included?

I'm not sure it was either. I think Twilight Imperium IV was his finis coronat opus. Once he secured that release he was probably satisfied to move on. I think he was very comfortable leaving things with Andrew Navarro and Corey Konieczka. Just my read on it.

I don't think it has anything to do with these Unique games - and furthermore to call them gambling loot boxes is completely unfounded. You buy 1 deck for ten bucks and you're done. The chain system balances decks so even if you get a bad deck it's still going to be competitive.

Unique Games is an innovation. It may fail, it may succeed, or may help pave the way toward something else in a follow up stage of evolution - but it's something really cool and it helps capture the FUN of when a game is new - it's a genuine attempt to keep that freshness and newness.

51 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

I don't think it has anything to do with these Unique games - and furthermore to call them gambling loot boxes is completely unfounded. You buy 1 deck for ten bucks and you're done. The chain system balances decks so even if you get a bad deck it's still going to be competitive.

Unique Games is an innovation. It may fail, it may succeed, or may help pave the way toward something else in a follow up stage of evolution - but it's something really cool and it helps capture the FUN of when a game is new - it's a genuine attempt to keep that freshness and newness.

Interesting take. Isn't it kind of like a loot box though? For example, if the unique contents were printed on the outside of the box, would that influence your buying decision, or would you just grab the first one on the rack? If the answer winds up being "Doesn't matter, I'd just grab the first one" then yeah, you're right. But then, I don't see how they make a profit with that model.

For the record, I don't care if collectible games is your thing (or a thing for that matter). I'm not particularly opposed to them one way or the other and this sounds like a cool concept. I'd just be careful ascribing purely altruistic motives blindly to a "for profit" company.

Unique games (rather KeyForge, the other one doesn't fit the bill at all) are far less comparable to lootboxes (you know, retail had a term for this concept with blind boxes, which certainly aren't new...but I guess video games are the measure of everything today) than Destiny Boosters, and those seemed okay with this person.

Yeah, when I responded I was a little surprised Crabbok was so emphatic, its a little out of character. Then I saw that the OP was trolling multiple forums and was posting here in bad faith and was really just looking to start the same argument. I've given the little fella enough of my time already. I'm out.

Could you explain why EA still has their CEO after Battlefront 2?

It is simply business. Asmodee was owned by Eurozeo an investment firm that buys smaller companies, makes them bigger and sells them at a profit (hence what they did). With the merger of Fantasy Flight Games they gave C.T. Peterson the top spot of the merger giving him a big fat stake in the combined company . Merger complete the stock value went up, the catch was that when they get ready to sell he would step down as founding members tend to be rather disruptive when the stake holders want to move the company in a different direction. Stake Holders want board members and Senior Execs to only be interested in one thing; increasing the stock value so they can sell it at a higher price then they bought it for.

So if FFG can't get away with making money then what makes you think EA which had the bigger backlash would be able to get away with it? I think you will find the truth to be more boring than any behind the scenes video.

I suppose it does have similarity, but being similar isn't the same as what the OP is accusing it of being. I have 2 decks, and they are fun. I want a few more, but I don't need a few more. If I miss the meta for a year or two, I can come back and buy 1 deck and be ready to go...

In fact, one of the biggest draw to a game like Key Forge is likely going to be sealed deck tournaments, which is a huge benefit to them being blind, yet proceduraly generated.

When I think gambling and loot boxes, I think you're going to hope to get ONE good thing out of a pack or box - but in this case, the entire deck is playable, legal, and balanced against all other decks with the chain system. You are guaranteed to get a unique experience that plays in to the system exactly how it's supposed to.

16 hours ago, Crabbok said:

and furthermore to call them gambling loot boxes is completely unfounded.

Keyforge and Discovery DO NOT detail the contents of the box. Meaning, the customers do not know the contents just a general idea of what will be inside. Those games meet the criteria to be a blind box / loot box. What is a blind box / loot box?

A blind box / loot box is simply some form of container (digital or physical) that denies the customer access to contents of the box before purchased. The customer must pay money to find out what is inside. This mechanic has been around for a long time but has been popularised by the Video Game industry; The video game industry is bigger than Hollywood. So this concept has finally reached enough people for society to take notice. Governments around the world are working on legislation to regulate blind box / loot box and some already have taken a stand (Belgium).

Keyforge and Discovery both Deny the customer access to the contents of their products.

What would FFG need to do in order to fix this problem (this will be a legal problem in the next few years anyways)?

Keyforge should have the QR code on the box and so should Discovery. That way, the customer will have full knowledge of what is in the box before purchase and the customer can make an informed decision. If you do not want to know the contents of the box, simply don't scan the QR code, or lift a flap, or look at the back of the box.

Gambling in general is an unhealthy activity. http://knowtheodds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NYCPG_ebook_YouthGambling_052114.pdf

Grabbok, before making acquisitions, please do your research.

43 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Keyforge and Discovery DO NOT detail the contents of the box. Meaning, the customers do not know the contents just a general idea of what will be inside. Those games meet the criteria to be a blind box / loot box. What is a blind box / loot box?

A blind box / loot box is simply some form of container (digital or physical) that denies the customer access to contents of the box before purchased. The customer must pay money to find out what is inside. This mechanic has been around for a long time but has been popularised by the Video Game industry; The video game industry is bigger than Hollywood. So this concept has finally reached enough people for society to take notice. Governments around the world are working on legislation to regulate blind box / loot box and some already have taken a stand (Belgium).

Keyforge and Discovery both Deny the customer access to the contents of their products.

What would FFG need to do in order to fix this problem (this will be a legal problem in the next few years anyways)?

Keyforge should have the QR code on the box and so should Discovery. That way, the customer will have full knowledge of what is in the box before purchase and the customer can make an informed decision. If you do not want to know the contents of the box, simply don't scan the QR code, or lift a flap, or look at the back of the box.

Gambling in general is an unhealthy activity. http://knowtheodds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NYCPG_ebook_YouthGambling_052114.pdf

Grabbok, before making acquisitions, please do your research.

I find it quite humorous that of all people to tell to do their research it’s Crabbok.

3 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Grabbok, before    making acquisitions, please do your research.

Well that's the point, you can't do research before making acquisitions. It's blind.

Or did you mean accusations? In which case, he didn't make any. He gave his opinion on how he saw the difference between the 2 models. Nothing remotely accusatory.

The difference being, if I'm understanding the conversation correctly (as I don't play any of these games), that in most randomly packed blind purchases there is a heavy "luck of the draw" element. That is, the value (as a game component or resale value) of the contents have a high degree of variance. If you open an unlucky pack, the incentive is there to buy another one in hopes of being luckier. Look no further than Magic the Gathering for this model.

In contrast, the system that @Crabbok is defending seems to have a low degree of variance in the contents and you are, therefore, not incented toward buying another pack--beyond wanting to expand your collection, of course.

One model is designed to take advantage of the blind customers to drive sales; and the other seeks to keep the anticipation of a soon-to-be-revealed surprise, but mitigate "luck of the draw".

At least that's what I got from it, but as I said, I could be misunderstanding.

8 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Well that's the point, you can't do research before making acquisitions. It's blind.

20 hours ago, Crabbok said:

and furthermore to call them gambling loot boxes is completely unfounded

Calling Unique games gambling loot boxes is founded. If he did his research he would have found others in the MEDIA calling it such at preview events at Gen Con.

2 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Calling Unique games gambling loot boxes is founded. If he did his research he would have found others in the MEDIA calling it such at preview events at Gen Con.

The media is not a reliable source to cite for research purposes.

When you buy the unique game deck you know you are getting a balanced, competitive, complete experience inside the box. No further purchase necessary. It's a neat concept and the gameplay has to be good or people won't keep buying decks.

Blind/loot boxes are designed to make you over-buy the product if you want a complete set (or even if you don't care about a complete set but want a specific item from the loot table). (Blind boxes suckered me in way back with marvel heroclix. And again later with Portal turret figures. Finally learned my lesson and avoided the EA game.)

52 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

The media is not a reliable source to cite for research purposes.

We are discussing Crabbok's comment about Unique Games being Loot Box Gambling. Certainly others are saying this and not just me. He could have actually looked up what I and others are saying to understand the reasons. Instead, he was OUTRAGED and let his fingers type instead of using his head.

53 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

 When you buy the unique game deck you know you are getting a balanced, competitive, complete experience inside the box. No further purchase necessary. It's a neat concept and the gameplay has to be good or people won't keep buying decks.

Blind/loot boxes are designed to make you over-buy the product if you want a complete set (or even if you don't care about a complete set but want a specific item from the loot table). (Blind boxes suckered me in way back with marvel heroclix. And again later with Portal turret figures. Finally learned my lesson and avoided the EA game.)

The fact is the customer DOES NOT know the contents of the box means its a blind box / loot box / gambling box because the contents are UNKNOWN. The speak you are using is just like EA's defence of loot boxes.

Quote

The intent is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different heroes.

So many of the comments on the FFG forums resemble the comments from PRO-Loot Box supporters. We have seen this sort of rhetoric in video games for years and now we are seeing it yet again in the board gaming industry.

23 hours ago, Crabbok said:

I don't think it has anything to do with these Unique games - and furthermore       to call them gambling loot boxes is completely   unfounde  d.      

3 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Calling Unique games gambling loot boxes is founded. If he did his research he would have found others in the MEDIA calling it such at preview events at Gen Con.

It's....still not an accusation. He was refuting (or attempting to) your point. You have two different points of view on the business model, he had an issue with your label and stated his case. It was defense, not accusation.

4 minutes ago, Sekac said:

It's....still not an accusation. He was refuting (or attempting to) your point. You have two different points of view on the business model, he had an issue with your label and stated his case. It was defense, not accusation.

He didn't address any of my points that proved FFG's Unique Games are Gambling Loot Boxes / Blind Boxes. Obviously, the statement of loot box / blind box / gambling is founded on the points that I have made in other threads and of course other media persons have also made their points. That is why I said he did not do his research and his claim of being 'unfounded' is FALSE. This THREAD wasn't designed to prove Unique Games are Loot Boxes; that was an assumption and has already been proven.

15 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

He didn't address any of my points that proved FFG's Unique Games are Gambling Loot Boxes / Blind Boxes. Obviously, the statement of loot box / blind box / gambling is founded on the points that I have made in other threads and of course other media persons have also made their points. That is why I said he did not do his research and his claim of being 'unfounded' is FALSE. This THREAD wasn't designed to prove Unique Games are Loot Boxes; that was an assumption and has already been proven.

That's just...like...your opinion, man.

Yours and other people in "the media".

I could claim any form of insurance is gambling too. I could make points that back it up. That doesn't prove anything.

And you could make points refuting my stance. But you doing so would not mean you're accusing me of anything. It would simply mean you disagree, which you are allowed to do.

30 minutes ago, Sekac said:

And you could make points refuting my stance. But you doing so would not mean you're accusing me of anything. It would simply mean you disagree, which you are allowed to do.

Using words like 'unfounded' are not simply disagreement. He could have said, I disagree with you. Making the claim that its 'unfounded' is FALSE.

31 minutes ago, Sekac said:

That's just...like...your opinion, man.

No its not just my opinion. Words have meaning. When looking at the definition of loot box / blind box, Unique games fit that definition. And that is fact. I think that is the problem with many people here. They choose to ignore facts due to cognitive dissonance.

1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

They choose    to ignore facts due to c  ognitive dissonance.    

Yep. The only possible explanation for why someone would disagree with your opinions.

2 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

We have     seen this sort of rhetoric in video games for years  and now we are seeing it yet again in the board gaming indus  try.

Umm. I don't know how to tell you this, but this concept is hardly new in the physical gaming space. Magic has been doing this for ages. FFG themselves had two games, GoT first ed. and Destiny. You're acting like this is news, when really it's been part of the industry for ages. I don't like it (that's why I don't play any collectible game), but this discussion has been had in the 90s. There is a certain amount of regulation on this stuff because of that (possible contents list needs to be open, with rarities and a number of packs minimum to get everything). Very different from the unregulated digital lootboxes. Physical packs also don't come with phony roulette or slot machine-style animations to hook you further, another key difference.

Now for Keyforge specifically: It appears to be designed to reduce the component-chase-y aspect of CCGs. It therefor has a more fair business-model than those. Still scummy, but nowhere near as bad.

Now Discovery as a coop/experience game doesn't fit into this at all. It is not a game you will unbox and be thrilled at the rare cards you got. It's a game that has it's content revealed through play alone, meaning you'll need a few sessions to see it all (rather than having an instant unboxing experience). Then if after even more sessions it becomes stale, but you want more of this kind of game, there is the option of getting another box. At this point nothing stops you from getting rid of your old box, it's not like they are collectible. Indeed it is quite likely that a bit of a box-for-box-trade will spring up, since the boxes will always be the same value. It's actually a pretty neat way to add replayability to this genre of game.

4 hours ago, Sekac said:

Yep. The only possible explanation for why someone would disagree with your opinions.

Denying Facts like FFG's Unique Games use Blind Box / Loot Box / Gambling mechanism in order to sell product. In order to ignore this fact and 'disagree' you will most likely be suffering from Cognitive Dissonance.

2 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Denying Facts like FFG's Unique Games use Blind Box / Loot Box / Gambling mechanism in order to sell product. In order to ignore this fact and 'disagree' you will most likely be suffering from Cognitive Dissonance.

Or, people are making the rather salient point that paying $10 in and getting $10 worth of value out of it doesn't really qualify as gambling. Is it blind? Yes. Is it loot? Uhh... sure. Whatever the definition of "loot" is you want to adhere to. Is it gambling? You could argue that if you like, but considering nobody stands to win or lose by participating, it doesn't really qualify strongly. Certainly no to the point that your opinion that it is gambling is somehow an unassailable fact.

This point has made to you by multiple people in this thread and you've avoided replying in any meaningful way other than to say it is blind, and is therefore a gambling mechanic. Not only have you failed to illustrate why blind automatically equals gambling, but immediately jumping to accusations (not acquistions) of cognitive dissonance makes it seem like you probably don't have a clear logic chain at all, just built in assumptions about how everyone would view this. I mean, has the media ever been wrong before?

6 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Umm. I don't know how to tell you this, but this concept is hardly new in the physical gaming space. Magic has been doing this for ages. FFG themselves had two games, GoT first ed. and Destiny. You're acting like this is news, when really it's been part of the industry for ages. I don't like it (that's why I don't play any collectible game), but this discussion has been had in the 90s. There is a certain amount of regulation on this stuff because of that (possible contents list needs to be open, with rarities and a number of packs minimum to get everything). Very different from the unregulated digital lootboxes. Physical packs also don't come with phony roulette or slot machine-style animations to hook you further, another key difference.

Now for Keyforge specifically: It appears to be designed to reduce the component-chase-y aspect of CCGs. It therefor has a more fair business-model than those. Still scummy, but nowhere near as bad.

Now Discovery as a coop/experience game doesn't fit into this at all. It is not a game you will unbox and be thrilled at the rare cards you got. It's a game that has it's content revealed through play alone, meaning you'll need a few sessions to see it all (rather than having an instant unboxing experience). Then if after even more sessions it becomes stale, but you want more of this kind of game, there is the option of getting another box. At this point nothing stops you from getting rid of your old box, it's not like they are collectible. Indeed it is quite likely that a bit of a box-for-box-trade will spring up, since the boxes will always be the same value. It's actually a pretty neat way to add replayability to this genre of game.

Well said. Key Forge is a less expensive take on card games, reducing virtually all of the things that make games like Magic bad, and coming in with a unique attempt at enhancing what makes them fun. To compare the procedurally generated decks to gambling is simply a bridge too far. It's much like playing Diablo - each dungeon is procedurally generated, but people don't accuse Diablo of being a casino. And the funny thing is... since this game isn't collectible, it's actually going to cost people LESS money than every other collectible game out there. I mean - the simple fact that someone would choose to attack FFG over this game, while Destiny is still in production, is really cause for confusion.

Unique Games give you options. Buy it and play it all you like. If you want to completely reboot your experience, you are more than welcome to.

14 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Calling Unique games gambling loot boxes is founded. If he did his research he would have found others in the MEDIA calling it such at preview events at Gen Con.

I did research by talking to devs, learning the game, and playing it. If some media personalities mistook this for gambling when it was first revealed, does that make it true? Which ones called it that? What do you say about media that disagrees with that point?

What exactly is the gamble I wonder? YOu buy a deck for 10 bucks. You are guaranteed to get a playable deck. You are also guaranteed to get a deck that is 100% unique. Nobody is "Hoping to get that one card that will make them unstoppabe", nobody is hoping for anything to be honest...

I'm actually very eager to get a few more decks - just to see how they'll play! Each deck is it's own game. I just can't make any connection to gambling there.

2 hours ago, Crabbok said:

Well said. Key Forge is a less expensive take on card games, reducing virtually all of the things that make games like Magic bad, and coming in with a unique attempt at enhancing what makes them fun. To compare the procedurally generated decks to gambling is simply a bridge too far. It's much like playing Diablo - each dungeon is procedurally generated, but people don't accuse Diablo of being a casino. And the funny thing is... since this game isn't collectible, it's actually going to cost people LESS money than every other collectible game out there. I mean - the simple fact that someone would choose to attack FFG over this game, while Destiny is still in production, is really cause for confusion.

I think it depends on what you want out of a card game. I think for Drafting and events that have the player trying to figure out how best to play the deck without little prep and it comes down to a matter of skill, then well I think the game does fine at that. Or for those who have a hard time building a deck and just want to skip to playing. However, I feel it likely suffers a little bit in terms competitive games if the player is seeking a specific style of deck or someone trying to get their hands on the best deck possible. Specifically say, you really only like playing control decks, or rush downs then you will need to keep buying decks for Keyforge until you luck into one since you don't know the factions you deck is built around until you open it. As for the second issue that is all down to how balanced FFG can make the game, the fact they mentioned that they will retire decks that are too strong makes me a bit weary of that.

TLDR; Really it just comes down to the strengths and weaknesses of the game. I think it will excel more in the casual market, or events and that it might suffer for people who are more competitive or like more control with their card games. It ultimately just boils down to the type of player and what they want out of the game.

On the other hand, I think that Discovery just looks really neat, it seems really geared to creating gaming experiences that could lead to memorable moments and fun stories groups can share about their playthroughs.

7 hours ago, Sekac said:

Or, people are making the rather salient point that paying $10 in and getting $10 worth of value out of it doesn't really qualify as gambling.

That is the same argument people give in the video game industry.

7 hours ago, Sekac said:

Is it blind? Yes. Is it loot? Uhh... sure. Whatever the definition of "loot" is you want to adhere to. Is it gambling? You could argue that if you like, but considering nobody stands to win or lose by participating, it doesn't really qualify strongly. Certainly no to the point that your opinion that it is gambling is somehow an unassailable fact.

Its the opinion of many governments around the world. Its the opinion of the Hawaii State Governer Chris Lee.

Quote

The purpose of this Act is to prohibit the sale of video games that contain a system of further purchasing a randomized reward or a virtual item that can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward to consumers under twenty-one years of age.

https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2018/bills/HB2686_.HTM

I concede this bill is FOR video games specifically. The main point is that this bill indicates a system that delivers random rewards ARE GAMBLING and should be regulated.

7 hours ago, Sekac said:

This point has made to you by multiple people in this thread and you've avoided replying in any meaningful way other than to say it is blind, and is therefore a gambling mechanic.

People have made the argument that because its a low low price of $10 that its some how not gambling. Or they said that because you get enough cards to play a game, that somehow its not gambling. Those arguments are not logical as they do not address the main tenets of gambling. The price of gambling loot boxes is not addressed in legislation and therefore isn't a valid argument. All that is required is a customer use money to purchase a random reward. And that is what you get when purchasing Unique games - RANDOM REWARDS.

7 hours ago, Sekac said:

but immediately jumping to accusations (not acquistions) of cognitive dissonance makes it seem like you probably don't have a clear logic chain at all,

I have a clear logical chain. I looked at the legalisation coming out of digital loot boxes and applied that to Unique Games. Changing virtual to physical fits for the most part although the Hawaii state government is directly geared towards IN GAME purchases. The people here suffering from cognitive dissonance refuse to actually look into the evidence.

6 hours ago, Crabbok said:

Key Forge is a less expensive take on card games, reducing virtually all of the things that make games like Magic bad, and coming in with a unique attempt at enhancing what makes them fun.

The price of a loot box is irrelevant. EA has stated multiple times that gamers ❤️ loot boxes and loot boxes are fun.

6 hours ago, Crabbok said:

To compare the procedurally generated decks to gambling is simply a bridge too far. It's much like playing Diablo - each dungeon is procedurally generated, but people don't accuse Diablo of being a casino.

Do you know about the Diablo 3 real money auction controversy? Because that was exactly what Activision/Blizzard was being accused of. Again, please do your research before typing. TLDR, Activision/Blizzard removed the real money auction house and revamped the loot system to actually benefit the players.

6 hours ago, Crabbok said:

And the funny thing is... since this game isn't collectible, it's actually going to cost people LESS money than every other collectible game out there. I mean - the simple fact that someone would choose to attack FFG over this game, while Destiny is still in production, is really cause for confusion.

The fact that the ENTIRE deck is worthless if a player wants to use a different card, would seem to indicate this game will be MORE expensive for WHALES and DOLPHINS.

Destiny also uses gambling loot boxes to sell their product. Why are you confused?

6 hours ago, Crabbok said:

I did research by talking to devs, learning the game, and playing it.

Did you talk to EA as well? I am sure EA would tell you that loot boxes are not gambling. Just as I am sure that Asmodee/FFG will tell you that Unique games are not gambling.

6 hours ago, Crabbok said:

If some media personalities mistook this for gambling when it was first revealed, does that make it true?

Your a media personality so why bother listening to you if you value your fellow journalists so much?

6 hours ago, Crabbok said:

Which ones called it that? What do you say about media that disagrees with that point?

Roll for Crit: https://youtu.be/WfA9o4i6TZk?t=5m37s

6 hours ago, Crabbok said:

What exactly is the gamble I wonder? YOu buy a deck for 10 bucks. You are guaranteed to get a playable deck. You are also guaranteed to get a deck that is 100% unique. Nobody is "Hoping to get that one card that will make them unstoppabe", nobody is hoping for anything to be honest...

You are admitting you do not know what gambling is. Please do your research AGAIN before typing.

Let me help you

Quote

Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration , chance and prize . ^[1] The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice, a spin of a roulette wheel, or a horse crossing the finish line, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.

1. Consideration - The cost of the loot box / blind box.
2. Chance - The possibility to get what you want.
3. Prize - the actual cards that you get in hand which probably will be mostly trash and not what you actually wanted.

6 hours ago, Crabbok said:

I just can't make any connection to gambling there.

Because you admitted you don't know what gambling is.