I've been looking with some worry at all these ordnance bomber swarms people have been coming up with, and trying to think of potential counters.

One of the intentions of the 2e design space seems to be the use of jam tokens to break target locks. It's nice and fluffy, and in theory it should reward preparation - take a cheap jam option (eg. Jamming Beam) and if you don't need it, you haven't overpaid for it. But you do have an option if they bring ordnance.

General consensus is that jamming sucks, and I'm not saying I disagree with that. Especially as what you really want is to futz with a few bombers' target locks on the opening engagement - they want to shoot their torps at range 3 - and then close the gap next round so that you're in the range 1 hole, or so that they've overshot.

But, of course, there are basically no jamming options at range 3. So I had a thought: Sabine + Proton Bombs + Trajectory Simulator.

Launch a bomb into the middle of a bomber group at range 3 (ish) and when it detonates, use Sabine to jam something in range. You open up the damage, and you strip or prevent a target lock from one of their ships.

It was only then I realised that this isn't possible. No Rebel ship can take both Trajectory Simulator and a Device.

Is this unfair?

Is this perhaps specifically because of the Sabine combo I was thinking of? Do FFG consider that too powerful? A launched ion effect bomb could really mess up a formation, and depending on Initiative timing a stress bomb could kill a vital action.

Technically Scum has access to this via Havoc, but maybe it's telling that the only ship capable of doing this natively is the TIE Punisher. Is that supposed to be the Punisher's new niche?

The last question then becomes - why make Trajectory Simulator an upgrade? If it's only Punishers and the Havoc that can do it, why not make it the Punisher's ship ability and an effect of the Havoc title respectively?

I don't really have answers to these questions, or strong opinions either way. Just interested in seeing where you guys land with this.

BUT MUH REBEL BIAS

The Iggies can do it too. Plus there's four other whole factions yet to be released.

But, yes, TrajSim bombing seems to be a niche trick exclusive to heavier, medium+ base bombers like the Punisher or (presumably) Resistance Bomber.

We NEED something to keep swarms in check. As much as I hate trajectory simulator, I think it’s necessary to keep the ship count meta somewhat diverse.

I don’t care at all about which faction gets it, as long as someone can use it if they want to counter swarms. Factions are different and I think that’s okay. And if this is the only thing making Punishers viable I’ll be surprised. If it just makes them unique that’s okay too.

19 minutes ago, svelok said:

The Iggies can do it too. Plus there's four other whole factions yet to be released.

But, yes, TrajSim bombing seems to be a niche trick exclusive to heavier, medium+ base bombers like the Punisher or (presumably) Resistance Bomber.

I wouldn't be surprised if rebels get access to it on something, sooner or later. I'm just not sure what.

It's all a balance act. Punishers get cheap access to TS because they don't have Sabine backing, Cad Bane backing, or out of phase information provided by Genius.

Remember that bombs are launched/dropped before movement by most ships. A lot of ships can position away from the bombs via BR or boost after moving to avoid them. They also aren't as devastating as before. A proton bomb doesn't run the chance of deleting a ship in one turn since they aren't dealt under the shields any more.

With Rebels, I think your key to working through swarms is getting an extra opportunity of attack. You likely need 4 distinct attacks to take Howlrunner off the board because of Iden eating one attack. Gunners on turrets and firing from primary + secondary arc (like the old Y-title did), simply running more ships of your own (a-wing + homer swarm) or even a heavy'ish list like 3 x Red Vets and 2 x Green squad where you can fan out arcs and cycle damage in and out better will all be counter swarm options available to Rebels.

Miranda-Nym was such a plague I don’t even care that the rebels are the only (known) faction who don’t get it. By fwiw the First Order is unlikely to have it unless they have a medium-large bomber in the works

not every faction gets access to every trick.

Then the rebels shall STEAL IT! Quick, call in the crew of the Phantom!

The Punisher finally gets out of the shadow of the k-wing and you want to put it right back in there? No, the rebels have enough tricks. The K-Wing will have to make due with its pwt, crew, and slam.

TIE Punisher is currently too cheap I think, I expect a points increase.

I'm mainlining Traj Sim Proton Bombs in most of my squads because I see it as a vital foil to TIE Swarms.

Punisher is 10pts more than bombers and with the exception of having a white reload they arent all that better than bombers.

They were like TWICE the price of a bomber before (well, close enough) and just as minorly stronger. We still have a hot debate on which is better to use, but its not as obvious a choice atm. Punisher's pilots have the clearly better abilities, but bomber is cheaper and synergize naturally.

5 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Punisher is 10pts more than bombers and with the exception of having a white reload they arent all that better than bombers.

They were like TWICE the price of a bomber before (well, close enough) and just as minorly stronger. We still have a hot debate on which is better to use, but its not as obvious a choice atm. Punisher's pilots have the clearly better abilities, but bomber is cheaper and synergize naturally.

You can get Jonus for the price of a Cutlass. I know which one I’d prefer.

Yeah, rebels got shafted

Especially the K, poor thing doesn't do diddly now

In an ironic twist of fate, it seems the K and Punisher basically switched places ito viability

One thing to note with punishers and TS - You have to do a stop move, Deathrain ability backwards barrel roll + 1 forward, or some form of bank + boost to get out of the way of your own bomb. Or you pay the points for plating to ignore a few bombs. You can't just traject and slow creep in without some risk to yourself like you could with a small base Nym before.

Ablative is lovely, though

Even if you never hit your own bomb, you can use it to juke through a rock without fear of damage.

Really swell for moving unpredictably

6 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

You can get Jonus for the price of a Cutlass. I know which one I’d prefer.

I hope the answer is the Cutlass, because of those wrecks TIE swarms by hurling a nuclear device at them and the other one dies instantly.

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Ablative is lovely, though

Even if you never hit your own bomb, you can use it to juke through a rock without fear of damage.

Really swell for moving unpredictably

Yeah I think it's undercosted. It's the equivalent of 2 shield upgrades at the cost of 1.

The only canon rebel fighter that would make even a little sense might be the H-60 Tempest Bomber. I think the only thing canon about it now are its name and it's location on Yavin, though. Even in legends, I don't think there's much to support the sensors slot but it's all I can think of.

I'm mostly okay with them just not having the combination, though. Rebels have combinations that other factions currently don't (astromech+crew+gunner, astromech+gunner+turret, etc).

Eh, with no stress bot out there, there's not an abusive chassis like the Sheathipede that can make a truly miserable combination of crew and astromech. I could see an edge case of the R3 and gunner + turret but you have to very situational for all of those to trigger at the same time.

Rebel jam is high health pool and throwing a lot of red dice per ship.

8 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I hope the answer is the Cutlass, because of those wrecks TIE swarms by hurling a nuclear device at them and the other one dies instantly.

It all depends. If you think swarms are the meta, it's an easy call for the Cutlass. If you want to front load your damage a bit more on single targets, a named Bomber with a Proton Torpedo is a pretty good choice.

I'm absolutely with you in that I expect the Punisher to go up in price. Especially the named ones, which are both stellar.

18 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Yeah, rebels got shafted

This is the ironic quote of 2.0. I don't think this can be beat.

17 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I hope the answer is the Cutlass, because of those wrecks TIE swarms by hurling a nuclear device at them and the other one dies instantly.

incorrect

the answer is obviously both

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

I've been looking with some worry at all these ordnance bomber swarms people have been coming up with, and trying to think of potential counters.

- - -

General consensus is that jamming sucks, and I'm not saying I disagree with that. Especially as what you really want is to futz with a few bombers' target locks on the opening engagement - they want to shoot their torps at range 3 - and then close the gap next round so that you're in the range 1 hole, or so that they've overshot.

- - -

It was only then I realised that this isn't possible. No Rebel ship can take both Trajectory Simulator and a Device.

Is this unfair?

Is this perhaps specifically because of the Sabine combo I was thinking of? Do FFG consider that too powerful? A launched ion effect bomb could really mess up a formation, and depending on Initiative timing a stress bomb could kill a vital action.

Technically Scum has access to this via Havoc, but maybe it's telling that the only ship capable of doing this natively is the TIE Punisher. Is that supposed to be the Punisher's new niche?

The last question then becomes - why make Trajectory Simulator an upgrade? If it's only Punishers and the Havoc that can do it, why not make it the Punisher's ship ability and an effect of the Havoc title respectively?

Imperial side, Kagi could be a solid counter. He's probably the least considered option but the strongest defensive Lambda pilot and would be a really strong choice in Imperial Aces builds to take some heat off more fragile ships.

If you're concerned about Locks, think about them a little more. If it's Bombers + Jendon, you'll know which Bombers are going after which target a turn or two ahead of time. Bomber swarms will either be I2 or I3, so your Acey types can just plan ahead and not get shot at. Or, if you're a Fearless Ace like Fenn Rau, just get in their face, under their ordnance range. X-Wings can probably outfly Bombers, so they'd be a good choice. Biggs should still help against the Alpha Strike. The things to really look out for, IMO, are Barrage Rocket Bomber Swarms. They don't need the Lock, are easy to fly, and aren't hitched to a shuttle.

- - -

Yeah, Jamming looks meh at best. I think one of the best looking builds I've used it on was a janky IG-88A + B + Unkar Plutt with IG-88D and Deadman's switch and it's more of an aesthetic feature than a central point.

- - -

I suspect that the devs will be pretty cagey with Sabine, especially since everyone knows she does fun Bomb shenanigans. She's not nearly as strong as she used to be, but still, like some people have mentioned, Rebels get tons of combinations of Upgrades due to the nature of their ships. Probably better to err on the side of caution rather than let some Sabine combo obliterate everyone... again. The devs seem quite interested in game balance, with I think takes away some of the combos, abilities, and upgrades that we're used to in 1.0, which kinda sucks. I already miss having Ion Bombs, but if they do come out, Sabine would be throwing multiple effects out with each Bomb, which would be really strong.

Trajectory Simulator really helps their damage output, too. I think, though, like the Resistance Bomber, though, TS doesn't come without risk of either telegraphing that you aren't planning on moving, bringing Ablative Plating to mitigate damage, or just eating your own Bombs.

4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

It all depends. If you think swarms are the meta, it's an easy call for the Cutlass. If you want to front load your damage a bit more on single targets, a named Bomber with a Proton Torpedo is a pretty good choice.

I'm absolutely with you in that I expect the Punisher to go up in price. Especially the named ones, which are both stellar.

Yeah, the Punisher's too cheap. That's pretty obvious, especially since so many people or so excited about it. It'll probably still melt into slag in a couple rounds unless it's flown exceptionally well. It'll also be a big target.

Their action bar is also phenomenal. Boost > Red Lock is awesome for getting off missiles and torps, so even when Redline and Deathrain go up, the Cutlass seems like a still viable option.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

The Iggies can do it too. Plus there's four other whole factions yet to be released.

Huh. I hadn't noticed the IGs got a device slot. That's very interesting, I can't really see a build where you'd want to make use of that over their more 1e like builds.

42 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

not every faction gets access to every trick.

Nor am I saying they should.

Imperials still don't get access to astros or illicits, Rebels can't freely double reposition like the Interceptors etc.

Just curious to see if this is one of those mechanics that's fine to be faction or specific, or if people feel this is a basic mechanic that Rebels are missing out on.

28 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

The Punisher finally gets out of the shadow of the k-wing and you want to put it right back in there? No, the rebels have enough tricks. The K-Wing will have to make due with its pwt, crew, and slam.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

I don't really have answers to these questions, or strong opinions either way. Just interested in seeing where you guys land with this.

I said absolutely nothing of the sort, nor did I mention K-Wings at all.

Some of y'all just come into every single thread looking for an argument, don't you?

1 hour ago, viedit said:

It's all a balance act. Punishers get cheap access to TS because they don't have Sabine backing, Cad Bane backing, or out of phase information provided by Genius.

All of which seems perfectly reasonable, as I said Sabine was one of the reasons I was looking at this because a launched bomb with a Sabine token could have been an interesting mechanic.

I think I'm fine with Rebels not getting access to it, I was just curious if anyone felt it was a viable tool the Rebels are genuinely missing out on.

14 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Yeah, rebels got shafted

Especially the K, poor thing doesn't do diddly now

In an ironic twist of fate, it seems the K and Punisher basically switched places ito viability

Yeah, K-Wings are in a really weird place now.

I think I like that they don't really have a direct analogue anymore. They're probably closest to the Scurrg now, as a turreted bomber. Thing is, they kinda feel like they lack the right tricks to fit into one role particularly well. Bombs and SLAMing out of the way seems to be the best fit, but then you don't get to use your turrets. Missile and torps seem equally pointless as they have no target lock tricks to help them fire it, and they can't fire them after a SLAM either.

They have a crew slot, but no obviously worthwhile crew other than Sabine.

I'm wondering about a Magva Yarro torp carrier, but Dutch seems like a much cheaper, better platform for fixed forward ordnance lists.

The same is true for the gunner slot. They're probably going to be using those primary turrets so rarely that I don't see much point in any gunner other than Bombardier, and even if you were using the turrets, all the turret gunners are expensive for effects that don't benefit the K's turrets a whole lot anyway.

I know a lot of people will be happy about that, after Miranda's 1e domination for so long. But I actually like the big ugly K-Wing, I'd like it to be viable as what it's supposed to be - a heavy ordnance platform that you can load up with versatile munitions to be flexible - rather than a turret-y regen monster. As originally written, the K-Wing wasn't supposed to have any guns at all.